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 Topic: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat

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  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #30 - April 05, 2009, 12:52 PM


    Totally against Qur'aan.

    BMZ


    24:2
    (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.


    The parts I have put in bold, is seen in the video.

    She was suspected of fornicating, and thus was flogged.

    The men who held her down, were her brothers, and not a single bit of pity was shown whilst she was screaming at the top of her lungs.

    I don't see how this is "totally" against the Qur'aan BMZ.


    The thing is, she wasn't even suspected of fornicating!  She was seen talking to someone who was not her mehram and 14 taliban burst into her house issuing this verdict! Even Islam is not totalitarian enough for these people!

    She was seen leaving the house with someone who was not her mehram. Not just talking.

    And stop  taking the side of cowards who are acting in the framework set to them by the book they are following.


    In what way was I taking the side of these cowards?

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #31 - April 05, 2009, 01:10 PM

    First, they did not produce four witnesses, which is a prime requirement.

    wrong.

    Second, they did not flog her a hundred times. If she were a Zaania, they could have given her a hundred.

    So if they flogged her 10 or 99 times, then we can count on you to state a common lie: "This has nothing to do with the koran(tm)". But the reality is, you should stop supporting torture.

    Where did this 30+ come from?

    It came for many reasons: The crowd was not cheering them on as they had hoped. The couple men in the crowds were shouting abuse at the torturer. They actually felt pity for her.

    The bloody half-baked Mullahs of tribal areas have no clue about this verse 4:15, in which Allah has shown mercy instead of any punishment. 

    وَاللاَّتِي يَأْتِينَ الْفَاحِشَةَ مِن نِّسَآئِكُمْ فَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ أَرْبَعةً مِّنكُمْ فَإِن شَهِدُواْ فَأَمْسِكُوهُنَّ فِي الْبُيُوتِ حَتَّىَ يَتَوَفَّاهُنَّ الْمَوْتُ أَوْ يَجْعَلَ اللّهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلاً


    Holy sh11t. You are trying to abrogate the ruling of lashing, with the ruling for life imprisonment.

    Both ruling are correct. And both ruling are according to the koran. And the judge could have picked either ruling and went home to sleep a good koran only muslim.

    My own translation: "4:15 If any of your women have committed any indecency, get four witnesses to testify and if they do, confine them to houses, till they die or Allah makes a way out for them."

    Do we see any order to whip or lash or beat in above? If you ask a Mullah, he will justify it using Hadith but cannot justify under Qur'aan at all.

    The verse about the hudud of 100 lashes is from the koran. Stop lying and pretend like you are some innocent moderate who does not know his koran.

    I have read that the Chief Justice of Pakistan has asked that all the whipping buggers be produced in Court.

    LOLz x100.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #32 - April 05, 2009, 01:19 PM


    Totally against Qur'aan.

    BMZ


    24:2
    (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.


    The parts I have put in bold, is seen in the video.

    She was suspected of fornicating, and thus was flogged.

    The men who held her down, were her brothers, and not a single bit of pity was shown whilst she was screaming at the top of her lungs.

    I don't see how this is "totally" against the Qur'aan BMZ.


    The thing is, she wasn't even suspected of fornicating!  She was seen talking to someone who was not her mehram and 14 taliban burst into her house issuing this verdict! Even Islam is not totalitarian enough for these people!

    She was seen leaving the house with someone who was not her mehram. Not just talking.

    And stop  taking the side of cowards who are acting in the framework set to them by the book they are following.


    In what way was I taking the side of these cowards?

    The definition for 'fahisha' and 'zania' is not limited to fornication. When you use words out of their context to make a point, it shows a willingness to lie to support a point.

    When you state that 'bursting' into her house requires a totalitarian government, you are again being dishonest, because you know that in your own country, cops do burst into the houses of people to arrest them.

    Now you would be most dishonest, if you actually know about the concept of hudud in sharia based islamic jurisprudence, and still said the above reply.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #33 - April 05, 2009, 01:44 PM


    Totally against Qur'aan.

    BMZ


    24:2
    (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.


    The parts I have put in bold, is seen in the video.

    She was suspected of fornicating, and thus was flogged.

    The men who held her down, were her brothers, and not a single bit of pity was shown whilst she was screaming at the top of her lungs.

    I don't see how this is "totally" against the Qur'aan BMZ.


    The thing is, she wasn't even suspected of fornicating!  She was seen talking to someone who was not her mehram and 14 taliban burst into her house issuing this verdict! Even Islam is not totalitarian enough for these people!

    She was seen leaving the house with someone who was not her mehram. Not just talking.

    And stop  taking the side of cowards who are acting in the framework set to them by the book they are following.


    In what way was I taking the side of these cowards?

    The definition for 'fahisha' and 'zania' is not limited to fornication. When you use words out of their context to make a point, it shows a willingness to lie to support a point.

    When you state that 'bursting' into her house requires a totalitarian government, you are again being dishonest, because you know that in your own country, cops do burst into the houses of people to arrest them.

    Now you would be most dishonest, if you actually know about the concept of hudud in sharia based islamic jurisprudence, and still said the above reply.



    I was just talking about the technicalities under islamic law. I know that even looking at somebody of the opposite sex with lust is considered zina of the eyes and is considered a sin. However, it is only sexual contact that is actually punishable by law. Remember, I am talking of technicalities and I am not talking about how loosely or strictly sexual contact can be defined, and how loosely or strictly islamic states punish male and female contact.

    When I was saying that they were "even more totalitarian than islam", I was not talking about them bursting into her house. I was saying that Islam is totalitarian as it is and they want to be even more totalitarian than that by ignoring Islamic evidence laws!

    And by the way, if she was suspected of fornicating, she would most likely be dead by now.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #34 - April 05, 2009, 03:50 PM


    First, they did not produce four witnesses, which is a prime requirement.


    BMZ,

    You don't know that. How do you know they don't have four witnesses?  Besides as the reports says, she was seen talking and walking with a man that wasn't her mehram-thus she was suspected of Zinna. Sure, you have to have four witnesses, but when it comes to men, the sharia holds this lenient requirement, not for women typically. When it comes to women, a woman is automatically seen guilty, and is tried much more biased. The trial for fornication, adultery, is much harsher on women than it is on men. Seriously, look at some of the rape cases in Saudi Arabia where the woman that's raped, is charged with Zinna.  Roll Eyes



    Second, they did not flog her a hundred times. If she were a Zaania, they could have given her a hundred.

    Where did this 30+ come from?



    How do you know it wasn't 100 times? How do you know the footage wasn't filmed at the last 30 lashes? I mean, based on the video, she was already held down, with the man holding the whip....



    The bloody half-baked Mullahs of tribal areas have no clue about this verse 4:15, in which Allah has shown mercy instead of any punishment. 

    وَاللاَّتِي يَأْتِينَ الْفَاحِشَةَ مِن نِّسَآئِكُمْ فَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ أَرْبَعةً مِّنكُمْ فَإِن شَهِدُواْ فَأَمْسِكُوهُنَّ فِي الْبُيُوتِ حَتَّىَ يَتَوَفَّاهُنَّ الْمَوْتُ أَوْ يَجْعَلَ اللّهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلاً


    My own translation: "4:15 If any of your women have committed any indecency, get four witnesses to testify and if they do, confine them to houses, till they die or Allah makes a way out for them."


    How exactly is this "mercy" instead of punishment BMZ?

    You just shown me a verse that prescribes another form of punishment, not mercy....

    Do we see any order to whip or lash or beat in above? If you ask a Mullah, he will justify it using Hadith but cannot justify under Qur'aan at all.


    No, I don't see any whips or lashes or beats in the above verse (I do see it in the verse I quoted you though). But I do see another form of punishment, which frankly, I feel is much more brutal.


    I have read that the Chief Justice of Pakistan has asked that all the whipping buggers be produced in Court.

    BMZ




    Aren't those the same people who signed the peace treaty with the Taliban?


    BMZ, don't think I'm picking on you. I'm not. I think you're an alright guy.

    The reason why I'm bringing your original claim into question is because, I sincerely believe that when you said that, you don't really mean to 'defend' the Quran, instead unconsciously, you are expressing your disgust for this video and you slightly doubted your religion, and as a defense mechanism, automatically defended the Quran, not for the sake of others, but really for yourself BMZ. ( The Quran was not even in question prior to your post) I understand, Islam is very close to your heart, and I understand it's probably hard for you to accept that these kinds of acts are indeed prescribed in the Quran, or else, they would have no legitimate purpose for committing these things. They must get their license from somewhere. As cliche as it may sound what I just said, I speak from experiences. I was a devout Muslim once, and I defended the Quran as often as I could. But really there is a point in life when one must ask themselves, what is more important, my personal principles, or these verses in a book? It turned out my personal principles is not parallel to the verses, and this is what ultimately led me to look at Islam critically. I invite you to do the same BMZ.  Smiley

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #35 - April 05, 2009, 04:00 PM

    +1

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  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #36 - April 05, 2009, 07:32 PM


    Totally against Qur'aan.

    BMZ


    24:2
    (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.


    The parts I have put in bold, is seen in the video.

    She was suspected of fornicating, and thus was flogged.

    The men who held her down, were her brothers, and not a single bit of pity was shown whilst she was screaming at the top of her lungs.

    I don't see how this is "totally" against the Qur'aan BMZ.


    The thing is, she wasn't even suspected of fornicating!  She was seen talking to someone who was not her mehram and 14 taliban burst into her house issuing this verdict! Even Islam is not totalitarian enough for these people!

    She was seen leaving the house with someone who was not her mehram. Not just talking.

    And stop  taking the side of cowards who are acting in the framework set to them by the book they are following.


    In what way was I taking the side of these cowards?

    The definition for 'fahisha' and 'zania' is not limited to fornication. When you use words out of their context to make a point, it shows a willingness to lie to support a point.

    When you state that 'bursting' into her house requires a totalitarian government, you are again being dishonest, because you know that in your own country, cops do burst into the houses of people to arrest them.

    Now you would be most dishonest, if you actually know about the concept of hudud in sharia based islamic jurisprudence, and still said the above reply.



    I was just talking about the technicalities under islamic law. I know that even looking at somebody of the opposite sex with lust is considered zina of the eyes and is considered a sin. However, it is only sexual contact that is actually punishable by law. Remember, I am talking of technicalities and I am not talking about how loosely or strictly sexual contact can be defined, and how loosely or strictly islamic states punish male and female contact.

    You used the word 'fornication'. The koran uses the words zina and fahisha, lesser conditions then fornication.

    When I was saying that they were "even more totalitarian than islam", I was not talking about them bursting into her house. I was saying that Islam is totalitarian as it is and they want to be even more totalitarian than that by ignoring Islamic evidence laws!

    And by the way, if she was suspected of fornicating, she would most likely be dead by now.

    she would be dead? possibly if she was witnessed committing fornicatoin, and the judge decides to implement the fornication punishment listed in sirat. But if the judge is a koran only salafi, then it would be a public whipping. Or confining to the house.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #37 - April 05, 2009, 08:53 PM

    she would be dead? possibly if she was witnessed committing fornicatoin, and the judge decides to implement the fornication punishment listed in sirat. But if the judge is a koran only salafi, then it would be a public whipping. Or confining to the house.



    Sorry, I really should make myself more clear! When I said she would probably be dead if she was suspected of fornication, I meant by an honour killing!

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #38 - April 05, 2009, 11:33 PM

    she would be dead? possibly if she was witnessed committing fornicatoin, and the judge decides to implement the fornication punishment listed in sirat. But if the judge is a koran only salafi, then it would be a public whipping. Or confining to the house.



    Sorry, I really should make myself more clear! When I said she would probably be dead if she was suspected of fornication, I meant by an honour killing!


    I knew what you meant when I read it

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #39 - April 06, 2009, 03:14 PM

    she would be dead? possibly if she was witnessed committing fornicatoin, and the judge decides to implement the fornication punishment listed in sirat. But if the judge is a koran only salafi, then it would be a public whipping. Or confining to the house.



    Sorry, I really should make myself more clear! When I said she would probably be dead if she was suspected of fornication, I meant by an honour killing!

    Honor killing is quite disgusting in that, it allows vigilantes to carry on the spirit of the islamic law, without having the action blamed directly on islam. Now that the Taliban got first hand taste that the society does not tolerate the koran punishments, they will have to switch back to underhanded honor killings.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #40 - April 06, 2009, 03:24 PM

    Apparently the guy was an electrician and the Taliban forced him to marry the girl (without divorcing his first wife) ... wacko
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #41 - April 13, 2009, 10:50 PM

    Ok I haven't read all the replies to this thread, so sorry if I repeat, but where is the boy/man that she was involved with? Is he going to get punished too?

    The last stand of frej
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #42 - April 13, 2009, 10:57 PM

    I hope this talibanisation doesn't spread to the rest of Pak........I'm off on Holiday there this summer. I don't wanna wear a burqa!

    The last stand of frej
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #43 - April 14, 2009, 11:17 AM

    Ok I haven't read all the replies to this thread, so sorry if I repeat, but where is the boy/man that she was involved with? Is he going to get punished too?


    Apparently he was beat a few days before, but no one filmed it. Another story is the Taliban commander wanted to marry this girl and she rejected this advances so he got her beat up by accusing her of adultery. His logic was, well is she does not want to marry me, when she must be seeing another guy.
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #44 - April 14, 2009, 02:17 PM

    Apparently he was beat a few days before, but no one filmed it. Another story is the Taliban commander wanted to marry this girl and she rejected this advances so he got her beat up by accusing her of adultery. His logic was, well is she does not want to marry me, when she must be seeing another guy.


    A link would be much appreciated Tut!  Smiley

    If the guy was lashed too, & it wasn't filmed & he received no sympathies, then its really unfair!

    Here's an image of a Somali gang rapist laughing off a light beating!

    http://thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/gang-rape-laugh1.jpg

    Maybe they don't beat the men hard enough?  Huh?

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #45 - April 14, 2009, 08:44 PM

    Ok I haven't read all the replies to this thread, so sorry if I repeat, but where is the boy/man that she was involved with? Is he going to get punished too?


    Apparently he was beat a few days before, but no one filmed it. Another story is the Taliban commander wanted to marry this girl and she rejected this advances so he got her beat up by accusing her of adultery. His logic was, well is she does not want to marry me, when she must be seeing another guy.


    Oh, I was hoping to see him get a good ass whooping too. Poor girl, I hope she heals well, and if there is a God out there that he punishes these demons.

    I feel really angry. Sorry

    The last stand of frej
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #46 - April 14, 2009, 08:58 PM

    Ok I haven't read all the replies to this thread, so sorry if I repeat, but where is the boy/man that she was involved with? Is he going to get punished too?


    Apparently he was beat a few days before, but no one filmed it. Another story is the Taliban commander wanted to marry this girl and she rejected this advances so he got her beat up by accusing her of adultery. His logic was, well is she does not want to marry me, when she must be seeing another guy.


    Oh, I was hoping to see him get a good ass whooping too. Poor girl, I hope she heals well, and if there is a God out there that he punishes these demons.

    I feel really angry. Sorry

    Do you think that if God ever punished people like that, then they would have done it in the first place.  If anything they thought they were fulfilling Gods word, and he has never done anything to them to prove otherwise. 

    Evidence that God dont exist - not really, but its another one of the reasons to give Islam the cold shoulder.

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #47 - April 14, 2009, 09:05 PM

    Ok I haven't read all the replies to this thread, so sorry if I repeat, but where is the boy/man that she was involved with? Is he going to get punished too?


    Apparently he was beat a few days before, but no one filmed it. Another story is the Taliban commander wanted to marry this girl and she rejected this advances so he got her beat up by accusing her of adultery. His logic was, well is she does not want to marry me, when she must be seeing another guy.


    Oh, I was hoping to see him get a good ass whooping too. Poor girl, I hope she heals well, and if there is a God out there that he punishes these demons.

    I feel really angry. Sorry

    Do you think that if God ever punished people like that, then they would have done it in the first place.  If anything they thought they were fulfilling Gods word, and he has never done anything to them to prove otherwise. 

    Evidence that God dont exist - not really, but its another one of the reasons to give Islam the cold shoulder.



    I know, nothing in this shitty world makes sense. I mean they ARE following so called "God's orders", but only from a book written by Mo. Bloody hell, who is gonna walk around with four pious mullahs all the time so that they can give testimony to rape etc. The trouble is I have muslim friends and I have to bite my tongue, and that is so frustrating, it's right there in front of their face and they simply do not see!!!!!

    The last stand of frej
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #48 - April 14, 2009, 09:22 PM


    I know, nothing in this shitty world makes sense. I mean they ARE following so called "God's orders", but only from a book written by Mo. Bloody hell, who is gonna walk around with four pious mullahs all the time so that they can give testimony to rape etc. The trouble is I have muslim friends and I have to bite my tongue, and that is so frustrating, it's right there in front of their face and they simply do not see!!!!!

    If there are just friends, then be yourself.  No need to bite your tongue.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #49 - April 14, 2009, 09:27 PM


    I know, nothing in this shitty world makes sense. I mean they ARE following so called "God's orders", but only from a book written by Mo. Bloody hell, who is gonna walk around with four pious mullahs all the time so that they can give testimony to rape etc. The trouble is I have muslim friends and I have to bite my tongue, and that is so frustrating, it's right there in front of their face and they simply do not see!!!!!

    If there are just friends, then be yourself.  No need to bite your tongue.


    Sorry no matter how "modern" their thinking is or how westernised they have become, some ppl will get offended just for the sake of it. They won't think, there is no brain function that identifies inconsistencies.

    And I don't want to be known as "Miss Pariah"

    The last stand of frej
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #50 - April 14, 2009, 10:05 PM


    I know, nothing in this shitty world makes sense. I mean they ARE following so called "God's orders", but only from a book written by Mo. Bloody hell, who is gonna walk around with four pious mullahs all the time so that they can give testimony to rape etc. The trouble is I have muslim friends and I have to bite my tongue, and that is so frustrating, it's right there in front of their face and they simply do not see!!!!!

    If there are just friends, then be yourself.  No need to bite your tongue.


    Sorry no matter how "modern" their thinking is or how westernised they have become, some ppl will get offended just for the sake of it. They won't think, there is no brain function that identifies inconsistencies.

    And I don't want to be known as "Miss Pariah"


    I hear ya

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #51 - April 14, 2009, 10:24 PM


    I know, nothing in this shitty world makes sense. I mean they ARE following so called "God's orders", but only from a book written by Mo. Bloody hell, who is gonna walk around with four pious mullahs all the time so that they can give testimony to rape etc. The trouble is I have muslim friends and I have to bite my tongue, and that is so frustrating, it's right there in front of their face and they simply do not see!!!!!

    If there are just friends, then be yourself.  No need to bite your tongue.


    some ppl will get offended just for the sake of it. They won't think, there is no brain function that identifies inconsistencies.

    And I don't want to be known as "Miss Pariah"

    If you dont mind me asking, then why are they your friends?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #52 - April 14, 2009, 10:38 PM


    I know, nothing in this shitty world makes sense. I mean they ARE following so called "God's orders", but only from a book written by Mo. Bloody hell, who is gonna walk around with four pious mullahs all the time so that they can give testimony to rape etc. The trouble is I have muslim friends and I have to bite my tongue, and that is so frustrating, it's right there in front of their face and they simply do not see!!!!!

    If there are just friends, then be yourself.  No need to bite your tongue.


    some ppl will get offended just for the sake of it. They won't think, there is no brain function that identifies inconsistencies.

    And I don't want to be known as "Miss Pariah"

    If you dont mind me asking, then why are they your friends?


    Maybe they would not see her criticism of Islam as a personal point of view but rather as an attack.

    Personally, I have a few very close and absolutely lovely Muslim friends. I would not dare to criticize Islam in front of them though (not as an ex-Muslim, I questioned them plenty before I converted), because I feel that they won't hear my opinions about Islam as simply me expressing my ideas, but rather they would think that I am attacking the religion and (since it is such a great part of their identity) them by extension. I don't know this for sure, but I have strong feelings they would be hurt and maybe defensive, and I'm not willing to sacrifice our friendship over it.

    "when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #53 - April 14, 2009, 10:50 PM


    I know, nothing in this shitty world makes sense. I mean they ARE following so called "God's orders", but only from a book written by Mo. Bloody hell, who is gonna walk around with four pious mullahs all the time so that they can give testimony to rape etc. The trouble is I have muslim friends and I have to bite my tongue, and that is so frustrating, it's right there in front of their face and they simply do not see!!!!!

    If there are just friends, then be yourself.  No need to bite your tongue.


    some ppl will get offended just for the sake of it. They won't think, there is no brain function that identifies inconsistencies.

    And I don't want to be known as "Miss Pariah"

    If you dont mind me asking, then why are they your friends?


    Maybe they would not see her criticism of Islam as a personal point of view but rather as an attack.

    Personally, I have a few very close and absolutely lovely Muslim friends. I would not dare to criticize Islam in front of them though (not as an ex-Muslim, I questioned them plenty before I converted), because I feel that they won't hear my opinions about Islam as simply me expressing my ideas, but rather they would think that I am attacking the religion and (since it is such a great part of their identity) them by extension. I don't know this for sure, but I have strong feelings they would be hurt and maybe defensive, and I'm not willing to sacrifice our friendship over it.


    No need to criticise it, just be truthful about who you are - to your friends at least?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #54 - April 14, 2009, 11:13 PM

    oh sorry, I didn't realize that the issue was about "coming out", I thought it was just about giving your honest opinion of Islam. I don't pretend to be Muslim, but I guess everyone's situation is different in terms of consequences of them openly rejecting Islam...

    "when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #55 - April 15, 2009, 01:00 AM

    oh sorry, I didn't realize that the issue was about "coming out", I thought it was just about giving your honest opinion of Islam. I don't pretend to be Muslim, but I guess everyone's situation is different in terms of consequences of them openly rejecting Islam...


    You don't need to "come out" being an apostate is not being like a homosexual, it is a philosophical position, just like I don't think I need to tell my "friends" I am person who agrees with the philosophy of Solipsism, similarly I don't believe I need to "come out" with my apostasy. I think many are starting to confuse atheism with homoism. If you want to promote homosexuality don't associate it with atheism or ex Muslims, find your own platform.   
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #56 - April 15, 2009, 01:36 AM

    oh sorry, I didn't realize that the issue was about "coming out", I thought it was just about giving your honest opinion of Islam. I don't pretend to be Muslim, but I guess everyone's situation is different in terms of consequences of them openly rejecting Islam...


    You don't need to "come out" being an apostate is not being like a homosexual, it is a philosophical position, just like I don't think I need to tell my "friends" I am person who agrees with the philosophy of Solipsism, similarly I don't believe I need to "come out" with my apostasy. I think many are starting to confuse atheism with homoism. If you want to promote homosexuality don't associate it with atheism or ex Muslims, find your own platform.   


    Hey there Tut,
    um.. I really don't know what to say to this. I didn't invent the term "come out" for apostating, I've seen it used around, and I actually do think it fits the situation. You can believe in whatever philosophy you want without the need to tell anyone, but Islam is more than just a philosophy- it is a complete way of life. You cannot be Muslim or be an apostate AND live your life freely according to those beliefs... without having others find out. Just like there are many homosexuals that go their whole lives pretending to be straight for fear of the rejection of society or breaking the norms, I think there are also many apostates that go on pretending to be Muslim for similar reasons. Never mind the fear of being killed that can be associated with either decision. 

    Incidentally, how does using the term "promote homosexuality"?  wacko

    You come off as a very homophobic person, to be honest.

    "when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #57 - April 15, 2009, 08:51 AM

    um.. I really don't know what to say to this. I didn't invent the term "come out" for apostating, I've seen it used around, and I actually do think it fits the situation. You can believe in whatever philosophy you want without the need to tell anyone, but Islam is more than just a philosophy- it is a complete way of life.

    Thats a good point. 

    It defines what you should be doing 5 times a day, it defines the type of trousers or skirts you wear, what to eat, what to drink, what you do on Friday afternoons, what time you wake up, how to treat your wife, treat your children teach your children, your political and social views and much much more

    Its more that just homosexuality where the only commonality is which sex you prefer to sleep with..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #58 - April 20, 2009, 11:54 PM

    oh sorry, I didn't realize that the issue was about "coming out", I thought it was just about giving your honest opinion of Islam. I don't pretend to be Muslim, but I guess everyone's situation is different in terms of consequences of them openly rejecting Islam...


    You don't need to "come out" being an apostate is not being like a homosexual, it is a philosophical position, just like I don't think I need to tell my "friends" I am person who agrees with the philosophy of Solipsism, similarly I don't believe I need to "come out" with my apostasy. I think many are starting to confuse atheism with homoism. If you want to promote homosexuality don't associate it with atheism or ex Muslims, find your own platform.   


    Hey there Tut,
    um.. I really don't know what to say to this. I didn't invent the term "come out" for apostating, I've seen it used around, and I actually do think it fits the situation. You can believe in whatever philosophy you want without the need to tell anyone, but Islam is more than just a philosophy- it is a complete way of life. You cannot be Muslim or be an apostate AND live your life freely according to those beliefs... without having others find out. Just like there are many homosexuals that go their whole lives pretending to be straight for fear of the rejection of society or breaking the norms, I think there are also many apostates that go on pretending to be Muslim for similar reasons. Never mind the fear of being killed that can be associated with either decision. 

    Incidentally, how does using the term "promote homosexuality"?  wacko

    You come off as a very homophobic person, to be honest.


    Well am sorry if I came across homophobic but why not ask me, I am not homophobic I am bisexual myself. Islam is a philosophical position and and it may be a way of life in some aspects but not everyone really follows Islam that stringently, and if it is not enforced into you then I don't see the need to "come out" you see, as an ex Muslim I don't want any left-wing harry potter white man using my identity as a platform for him to preach his shit. I don't care if someone is white it seems ex Muslims have an inferiority complex and want to be associated with white upper middle class circles. We might as well start saying "Yes Sir" and "No Sir" its bloody damn pathetic. We have an inability to be independent as ex Muslims. Female ex Muslims generally hate male ex Muslim males. I have read 3 blogs by prominent ex Muslim women all of whom who have white boyfriends of white husbands and will use terms like "male ex Muslims despite leaving Islam are misogynistic" or things like "male ex Muslims have Islamic bagged" frankly if you want to date white men or whoever don't bash those who sympathize with you because you want some kind of idealized relationship with a white man.

    I would date an ex Muslim woman, but they would not be interested in me.
  • Re: 17 year old girl punished publicly in Swat
     Reply #59 - April 21, 2009, 07:45 AM

    Quote from: King Tut
    I would date an ex Muslim woman, but they would not be interested in me.

    Which explains your anger? No offence meant... just curious.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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