Which Way Do We Pray, George?

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #30 - April 08, 2009, 11:16 AM

Quote from: Rashna on April 08, 2009, 11:05 AM
Quote from: awais on April 08, 2009, 10:21 AM
I feel mixed on the Taliban's destruction of the Buddhas. On one hand it's great iconoclasm. On the other, it's destruction of art and history.

Showing your true Salafi colors awais???

I don't see what's so wrong with that, but whatever.

Quote
As far as ideas are concerned, sometimes ideas are good, with or withour images & statues- because the teachers happen to be basically good guys-Jesus & Buddha were truly good guys, with or without all their statues, their "ideas" are good.

And sometimes ideas are rotten, because the preachers are rotten individuals-Mo was such an individual, with or without his statues or images, he'd remain grotesque, as would his ideas.

I like to think of Muhammad with the words Joseph Smith said of himself,

Quote from: Joseph Smith -History, 1:33
...My name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #31 - April 08, 2009, 12:15 PM

Quote from: awais on April 08, 2009, 11:16 AM
Quote from: Rashna on April 08, 2009, 11:05 AM
Quote from: awais on April 08, 2009, 10:21 AM
I feel mixed on the Taliban's destruction of the Buddhas. On one hand it's great iconoclasm. On the other, it's destruction of art and history.

Showing your true Salafi colors awais???

I don't see what's so wrong with that, but whatever.

Thats' because you've been so badly affected by Salafi ideology, when you claim that something good came out of it ie "you" came out of it- this is what it has done to your sense of morality!

As for Muhammad, a reading of his life in the Quran, sira & hadiths as well as his effect on otherwise good people like you who have "mixed feelings" over the Taliban destruction as well as call it "great iconoclasm" shows what it can do to people!

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #32 - April 08, 2009, 02:15 PM

Quote from: awais
On one hand it's great iconoclasm.

Oh, really?

This is the same rationale Muslim tyrants and terrorists have traditionally evoked to raid and destroy churches, synagogues, fire temples, Buddhist shrines, and pagan ruins --not to mention secular icons like the Twin Towers. The world is teeming with ugly mosques devoid of any artistic and aesthetical value. Why not destroy a few first? That would be very "iconoclastic," right? Even empty space is better than such grotesque temples of hate, i.e. mosques.

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #33 - April 08, 2009, 02:22 PM

Can you imagine what would happen if people with that mentality took over Egypt? Good bye pyramids, good bye sphinx.

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #34 - April 08, 2009, 02:47 PM

I don't see how you can use iconoclasm to justify anything, I thought you were kidding when you said that :\

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #35 - April 08, 2009, 03:57 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on April 08, 2009, 02:22 PM
Can you imagine what would happen if people with that mentality took over Egypt? Good bye pyramids, good bye sphinx.

Well, Saladin's son did try to demolish the pyramids on much the same grounds awais' uses, he gave up as he lacked the technology to carry out this mammoth task.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_of_Menkaure

Attempted Demolition

At the end of the twelfth century Malek Abd al-Aziz Othman ben Yusuf, Saladin's son and heir attempted to demolish the pyramids starting with Menkaure's pyramid. They found it almost as expensive to destroy as to build. They stayed at their job for eight months. They were not able to remove more than one or two stones each day at a cost of tiring themselves out utterly. Some used wedges and levers to move the stones while others used ropes to pull them down. When it fell it would bury itself in the sand requiring extraordinary efforts to free it. Wedges were used to split the stones into several pieces and a cart was used to carry it to the foot of the escarpment, where it was left. Far from accomplishing what they intended to do they merely spoiled the pyramid and proved themselves incapable. [4] [5]

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #36 - April 08, 2009, 06:33 PM

Muhammad took his strict monotheism & distaste of idolatry from Jews just like he plagiarized much of their escatology(as well as some Christian theology), but he forgot to include either the improvement made in Jewish law by the Talmudic scholars & Rabbis or the great ethical strides made by Jesus', both of which were already significant developments in the Abrahamic heritage. Thus his faith was a throwback to the very primitive state of Jewish law-with the additional element of being a world conquering faith.

Sure, the Jews disliked idolatry but they hadn't imposed their opinions on others since the days of Torah mythology, perhaps never. Thats' how they lived in absolute peace with even idolatrous populations, be it in India where they have lived for 2000+ years or Pre Islamic Arabia. The pagans returned their goodwill, thats' how the Pre Islamic Arabs allowed halacha by letting Kaab ibn Al Ashraf remain a Jew.

Muhammad was impressed by Jewish theology & fancied himself as their Prophet. On being repulsed, he didn't die like Jesus' but chose to slaughter & forcibly convert them. His followers often did the same with non Muslims in whichever nation they subjugated.

The Jews might've stuck to their strict monotheism, but never imposed their "great iconoclasm" on others. They're an extremely successful lot, contributing immensely to the world today. Ironically the Muhammad who abhorred idolatry couldn't shed his pagan origins entirely. He retained the kaaba pilgrimage, the supposed divinity of the zamzam well & went to great pains to ensure that converted populations the world over bow five times to his homeland of Arabia, one of the worst nations regarding human rights records & till the discovery of oil, extremely poor(inspite of never being colonized, & all the pilgrim money )

Today, flush with oil wealth but still hesitant to let women drive-Saudi imports drivers from Buddhist Thailand & Catholic Phillipines,two "idolatrous" nations, which have 90%+ literacy, against Saudi's 70%+, & much better human rights records.

Muhammad's plagiarism of the strict monotheism of Judaism brought a lot of sorrow to a lot of folks-from the Meccan pagans & Banu Quraiza Jews to the subjugated people in all the nations Muslims conquered who saw their beloved shrines desecrated & their loved ones killed, but what practical benefits?

Its like someone was impressed by Shakespeare, plagiarized a Shakespearean play was unable to comprehend its goodness but inclined to add his own poor imputs- & turned it into something sordid & rotten.

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #37 - April 08, 2009, 09:47 PM

I agree with Zaephon and Cheetah on this. Using "iconoclasm" as an excuse just because the perpetrators were Muslim is ridiculous. As Zaephon pointed out, it would also be "iconoclastic" to go around destroying mosques but I'm sure awais would be horrified by that.

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #38 - April 08, 2009, 11:46 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on April 08, 2009, 09:47 PM
I agree with Zaephon and Cheetah on this. Using "iconoclasm" as an excuse just because the perpetrators were Muslim is ridiculous. As Zaephon pointed out, it would also be "iconoclastic" to go around destroying mosques but I'm sure awais would be horrified by that.

It'd be great iconoclasm if the Ka'bah and Masjid an-Nabi (and Qubbat as-Sakhrah, and Aqsa, and..) were destroyed . They're just symbols.

How many Buddhists are in Afghanistan? None. So what's the issue about destroying a giant Buddha the current inhabitants don't care for? Yes it's still a tragedy for the loss of art and history. I said I was 'torn' on how I felt.

Quote from: Zaephon on April 08, 2009, 02:15 PM
grotesque temples of hate, i.e. mosques.

bigot.

Quote from: Cheetah on April 08, 2009, 02:22 PM
Can you imagine what would happen if people with that mentality took over Egypt? Good bye pyramids, good bye sphinx.

I remember this being discussed as 'a good idea' during a reading of Kitab at-Tawheed. I don't like it, and so don't Egyptian muslims. It's not the iconoclasm I care for, no one venerates their old religion; and it'd be a tragic loss of art and history.

Perhaps I should get back to praying at the mosque. Surely I must still be an 'evil' muslim!

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #39 - April 09, 2009, 12:33 AM

Quote
How many Buddhists are in Afghanistan? None

Are you sure about that? You must know that the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas was part of a larger process of ethnic cleansing on the part of the Taliban, surely?

Quote
Perhaps I should get back to praying at the mosque. Surely I must still be an 'evil' muslim! Roll Eyes

I think I am beginning to understand why you would feel that way. But I hope you understand that this is coming as a bit of a shock to me too, so you have to be tolerant of people that don't instantly "get" you, the same way I have tried to be of people who think differently to me.

I haven't always succeeded, and nor have you. So regardless of what building you pray inside, or whether you pray at all, there is a larger lesson to be learned here. IMO, anyway.

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #40 - April 09, 2009, 04:08 AM

Quote from: awais on April 08, 2009, 11:46 PM
It'd be great iconoclasm if the Ka'bah and Masjid an-Nabi (and Qubbat as-Sakhrah, and Aqsa, and..) were destroyed . They're just symbols.

Then why do Muslims build mosques? They're just "symbols" too-symbols inside which very often hate is preached by imams-hate against kafirs, women, Jews, mushrikeen etc.

Many people need a symbol to focus on a Higher Being-you certainly haven't been appointed to tell them whom to pray to or how to pray-& even if you insist on your way, you can't force your views on anyone. If they believe in a Higher Being, great, if not fine. If they believe in One God-terrific, if many god\s, that's awesome too. No one should be forced to pray(or not pray) in a certain way as long as they aren't harming anyone, their gods' idols shouldn't be smashed, nor should they be made to "humbly tithe, & feel themselves subdued."

Buddha understood this, Jesus understood this. A founder of a particular faith called Islam("submission"- to Mo's views? ) never got this logic, unsurprisingly his followers don't either.

Quote from: awais on April 08, 2009, 11:46 PM
How many Buddhists are in Afghanistan? None. So what's the issue about destroying a giant Buddha the current inhabitants don't care for? Yes it's still a tragedy for the loss of art and history. I said I was 'torn' on how I felt.

Ironically, this is the same logic hate preachers like Anjem Choudhury use. Choudhury also wants every woman to wear a burkha & homosexuals to be jailed. You spend a few teenage years as a Salafi & you start mouthing his words, maybe a few more years & you'd start saying that there's nothing wrong with forcing women into burkhas either, if you don't think so already!

As for Buddha images, Buddhists over the world cared deeply & not just Buddhists, others too. Japan had offered to properly uproot & get the Bamiyan Buddhas to their country-Afghanistan wouldn't allow it.

Quote from: awais on April 08, 2009, 11:46 PM
I remember this being discussed as 'a good idea' during a reading of Kitab at-Tawheed. I don't like it, and so don't Egyptian muslims. It's not the iconoclasm I care for, no one venerates their old religion; and it'd be a tragic loss of art and history.

Discussed as a "good idea"? Saladin's son did attempt a demolition, Alhamdullilah he didn't have such superior technology to carry this out. Certain sites are called World Heritage Sites for a reason, they're the legacy of the world, carved with love & piety by our ancestors who bequeathed them to all humanity.They belong to all people, all of us can view them & take pleasure from them. Now just because some folks have adopted a faith which dislikes statues but loves stonings & lashings, the world should not be forced to lose their valuable legacy to "great iconoclasm". Why not destroy mosques awais? Why is Zaephon a "bigot" for wanting that?

Mo claimed(falsely) his attacks were in self defence, today we know mosques preach hate against uncovered women, kafirs, our beloved heritage sites etc, so wouldn't destroying them be an act of self defence too?

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #41 - April 09, 2009, 04:22 AM

Quote from: Rashna on April 09, 2009, 04:08 AM
Quote from: awais on April 08, 2009, 11:46 PM
It'd be great iconoclasm if the Ka'bah and Masjid an-Nabi (and Qubbat as-Sakhrah, and Aqsa, and..) were destroyed . They're just symbols.

Then why do Muslims build mosques? They're just "symbols" too-symbols inside which very often hate is preached by imams-hate against kafirs, women, Jews, mushrikeen etc.

Muslims build mosques because it beats praying outside, particularly if it's the middle of summer in Arabia and the temperature is like the inside of an oven and the sun will fry your brains in five minutes flat.

Quote
Quote from: awais on April 08, 2009, 11:46 PM
How many Buddhists are in Afghanistan? None. So what's the issue about destroying a giant Buddha the current inhabitants don't care for? Yes it's still a tragedy for the loss of art and history. I said I was 'torn' on how I felt.

Ironically, this is the same logic hate preachers like Anjem Choudhury use. Choudhury also wants every woman to wear a burkha & homosexuals to be jailed. You spend a few teenage years as a Salafi & you start mouthing his words, maybe a few more years & you'd start saying that there's nothing wrong with forcing women into burkhas either, if you don't think so already!

You're losing the plot again, Rashna. Awais is not mouthing Anjem Choudhury's words here. Nor has he ever said women should be forced into burkhas, nor do I expect him to start saying that.

Quote
Quote from: awais on April 08, 2009, 11:46 PM
I remember this being discussed as 'a good idea' during a reading of Kitab at-Tawheed. I don't like it, and so don't Egyptian muslims. It's not the iconoclasm I care for, no one venerates their old religion; and it'd be a tragic loss of art and history.

Discussed as a "good idea"? Saladin's son did attempt a demolition, Alhamdullilah he didn't have such superior technology to carry this out. Certain sites are called World Heritage Sites for a reason, they're the legacy of the world, carved with love & piety by our ancestors who bequeathed them to all humanity.They belong to all people, all of us can view them & take pleasure from them. Now just because some folks have adopted a faith which dislikes statues but loves stonings & lashings, the world should not be forced to lose their valuable legacy to "great iconoclasm". Why not destroy mosques awais? Why is Zaephon a "bigot" for wanting that?

Mo claimed(falsely) his attacks were in self defence, today we know mosques preach hate against uncovered women, kafirs, our beloved heritage sites etc, so wouldn't destroying them be an act of self defence too?

Awais just said that in his view destroying mosques would be "great iconoclasm". I still don't think that's much of an argument in favour of it, but he did say that.

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #42 - April 09, 2009, 04:36 AM

Fair point Osmanthus! I have to control my temper!

Its just that, some views do make me mad. Being "torn" over the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas or saying that its "great iconoclasm" does enrage me. To think that Saladin's son attempted to destroy the pyramids does enrage me-I'm very glad the pyramids are there. It seems perhaps the Egyptian god\s intervened, or perhaps the Almighty God intervened, iconoclastic Muslim Malek Abd Al Aziz Othman couldn't destroy in the 12th century Pyramids' built 3 millennia earlier. It enrages me to think that the destruction of the Pyramids' was discussed as a "good idea" during an Islamic class in U.S.A., no less.

But I guess I should try to adjust to others' views, even if they contradict mine.

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #43 - April 09, 2009, 04:46 AM

Awais said that he heard the destruction of the pyramids being discussed as a "good idea" by other people and that at the time he thought it was not a good idea.

I agree that his comments about the Buddhas were weird, despite his backpedaling to include the hypothetical destruction of al-Aqsa and some other Islamic buildings under the "great iconoclasm" umbrella. I'm quite sure that if this thread had not happened and some Islamic buildings did happen to be destroyed because somebody disapproved of them he would be livid at anyone who said "Hey, that's a great bit of iconoclasm there".

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #44 - April 09, 2009, 05:54 AM

Quote from: Rashna on April 09, 2009, 04:36 AM
Fair point Osmanthus! I have to control my temper!

Its just that, some views do make me mad. Being "torn" over the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas or saying that its "great iconoclasm" does enrage me. To think that Saladin's son attempted to destroy the pyramids does enrage me-I'm very glad the pyramids are there. It seems perhaps the Egyptian god\s intervened, or perhaps the Almighty God intervened, iconoclastic Muslim Malek Abd Al Aziz Othman couldn't destroy in the 12th century Pyramids' built 3 millennia earlier. It enrages me to think that the destruction of the Pyramids' was discussed as a "good idea" during an Islamic class in U.S.A., no less.

But I guess I should try to adjust to others' views, even if they contradict mine.

I suppse at the time of the conquest of Egypt, the pyramids essentially were already an ancient, supposedly useless structure in the middle of the desert, not worth the effort to destroy. It drew no one's attention towards any existing 'Gods' and therefore was no threat to propagating Islam.

The Churches/Temples/Libraries that were destroyed however represented the killing off of existing faiths and also the ability to use a central foundation amongst the people to establish Islam and its superiority over the previous bulidings.

The Bamiyan Buddhas still represented an existing faith, and with today's technology they were easy to destroy. If the early Caliphs had explosives, the Buddhas and the pyramids may have been long gone.
.

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #45 - April 09, 2009, 06:03 PM

Quote from: osmanthus
Awais just said that in his view destroying mosques would be "great iconoclasm".

Great. I'm going to pick up my dynamite collection to blow up the Kaaba.

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #46 - April 09, 2009, 08:15 PM

Quote from: Zaephon on April 09, 2009, 06:03 PM
Quote from: osmanthus
Awais just said that in his view destroying mosques would be "great iconoclasm".

Great. I'm going to pick up my dynamite collection to blow up the Kaaba.

You'll have to shave you hair off if you dont want to raise suspicion, alternatively you could don a burkha.

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #47 - April 10, 2009, 10:19 AM

Quote from: Cheetah on April 09, 2009, 12:33 AM
Quote
How many Buddhists are in Afghanistan? None

Are you sure about that? You must know that the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas was part of a larger process of ethnic cleansing on the part of the Taliban, surely?

Walter Sobchack, "I did not know that."

Quote from: osmanthus on April 09, 2009, 04:46 AM
I agree that his comments about the Buddhas were weird, despite his backpedaling to include the hypothetical destruction of al-Aqsa and some other Islamic buildings under the "great iconoclasm" umbrella. I'm quite sure that if this thread had not happened and some Islamic buildings did happen to be destroyed because somebody disapproved of them he would be livid at anyone who said "Hey, that's a great bit of iconoclasm there".

I don't think it would be iconoclasm if that wasn't the intent.

Thanks Os for relaying the correct intent of my words.

I tired of this subject. I think I will respond 'no more forever' on it. Peace.

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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #48 - April 11, 2009, 04:01 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on April 09, 2009, 04:46 AM
Awais said that he heard the destruction of the pyramids being discussed as a "good idea" by other people and that at the time he thought it was not a good idea.

I agree that his comments about the Buddhas were weird, despite his backpedaling to include the hypothetical destruction of al-Aqsa and some other Islamic buildings under the "great iconoclasm" umbrella. I'm quite sure that if this thread had not happened and some Islamic buildings did happen to be destroyed because somebody disapproved of them he would be livid at anyone who said "Hey, that's a great bit of iconoclasm there".

Like Sunnis and Shias blowing up each other's mosques?
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Re: Which Way Do We Pray, George?
Reply #49 - April 11, 2009, 04:29 PM

Iconoclasm is awesome! Smash it all! Tear it all down, motherfuckers. Fuck history, fuck art, fuck tradition. Forward to the future! ANARCHY, ANARCHY!

fuck you
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