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 Topic: Hadith Question Help please

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  • Hadith Question Help please
     OP - April 15, 2009, 04:16 PM

    I have come across this quote before :
    Quote
    Qur'an 9:3 "Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle."


    When I used it in an agreement I was told that I should take into account the next verse:
     
    Quote
    (9:4) says:
    But the treaties are not dissolved with those pagans with whom Ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

    I replied fair enough, the next verse says :
    Quote
    9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    So after the sacred months, unbelievers are fair game!


    To which the reply was:
    Quote
    The new verse you mention is talking about the pagans whome are persecuting the Muslims. This is a war scenario. The point was, even they are protected in the sacred months, but afterwards the Muslims can and should defend themselves from persecution.


    So I replied with the following:
    Quote
    [9:8] How can they (demand a pledge) when they never observed any rights of kinship between you and them, nor any covenant, if they ever had a chance to prevail. They pacified you with lip service, while their hearts were in opposition, and most of them are wicked.

    Notice that this implies that any treaty made with infidels is implicity made in bad faith on the part of the infidels, therefore such a treaty is worthless!

    Am I correct in my interpretation, or does 9:4 supersede 9:5 and 9:8?
    Any help someone who is more familiar with islam would be appreciated,
    Cheers,
    Stublore
     thnkyu
  • Re: Hadith Question Help please
     Reply #1 - April 15, 2009, 04:47 PM

    Am I correct in my interpretation, or does 9:4 supersede 9:5 and 9:8?
    Any help someone who is more familiar with islam would be appreciated,
    Cheers,
    Stublore
     thnkyu



    Hi Stublore!  Smiley

    The Quran contains the doctrine of abrogation, by which any verse coming later supersedes the earlier verses:

    So 9:4 does not supercede 9:5 & 9:8, but 9:5 & 9:8 supercedes 9:4.

    "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?" (Qur'an 2:106).

    If anything the Koran makes clear that it is whole and complete--which means that no later part can supercede any earlier part, or vice versa.

    Qur'an 2:106, as well as by Qur'an 16:101: "When We substitute one revelation for another,  and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),  they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not." Note that 16:101, as well as 2:106, refers to the substituting of revelations -- that is, words of Allah, and probably portions of the Qur'an (although the Hadith Qudsi are also considered to be divine revelation, on par with the Qur'an, but they constitute only a small part of the Hadith).

    There is wide disagreement among Muslim theologians as to precisely which verses have been abrogated and which others have replaced them. Still, it has been a mainstream notion in Islamic theology that if a verse revealed at Mecca contradicts another revealed later at Medina, the Medinan verse takes precedence.

    Many traditional Islamic theologians and Qur'an commentators argue that violent material, such as sura 9, abrogates more relatively tolerant material such as sura 109. This is not a newly-minted view "cherry-picked" by Osama bin Laden; it is in fact a very ancient view. When discussing why Muhammad didn't begin sura 9 with the customary invocation bismillah ar-rahman ar-rahim, "in the name of Allah, the compassionate, the merciful," an intriguing answer comes from a Qur'an commentary that is still highly valued today in the Islamic world, Tafsir al-Jalalayn. This is a fifteenth-century work by the renowned imams Jalal al-Din Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Mahalli (1389-1459) and Jalal al-Din Abd al-Rahman ibn Abi Bakr al-Suyuti (1445-1505). The invocation, suggests this tafsir, is security, and [Sura 9] was sent down when security was removed by the sword.


    Security's removal by the sword meant specifically the end of many treaties the Muslims had made with non-Muslims. Another still-influential Qur'an commentator, Ibn Kathir (1301-1372) quotes an earlier authority, Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, to establish that the Verse of the Sword, sura 9:5 ("slay the unbelievers wherever you find them") 'abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term.' He adds from another authority: "No idolater had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Baraah was revealed." And yet another early commentator, Ibn Juzayy (d. 1340) agrees that one of this verse's functions is 'abrogating every peace treaty in the Qur'an.'

    Hope this helps!  Smiley


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hadith Question Help please
     Reply #2 - April 16, 2009, 09:43 AM

    Why were the treaties with the non-muslims ended?
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