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Theme Changer

 Topic: hello from a new member

 (Read 16643 times)
  • 12 3 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • hello from a new member
     OP - April 15, 2009, 06:08 PM

    Dear All,

    I've been a lurker at this forum for a while now, but have been inspired by the balanced and courteous posts of such members as Hassan, whose writings and videos I've really admired.

    I'll give a brief introduction. I'm a 26-year-old woman, doing a Master's degree in Psychology right now. I was born and raised in Pakistan. I grew up a Sunni Muslim and practiced Islam very seriously until I was about 18. After I got to undergraduate university in Lahore, I got an environment where I could think much more freely, and I think within a year I was through with Islam and with religion in general. I then became an atheistic agnostic.

    I'm also gay and have a long-time partner who I met in Pakistan, so as you can imagine Islam's attitude to homosexuality has a huge impact on my life, as my parents are very socially conservative and also see themselves as practicing Muslims.

    It's a long story and to be honest I don't want to discuss the details (as these things are very private) but after a while I moved out of atheism for a number of reasons and would now put myself in the "spiritual but not religious" camp. I'm metaphysically-oriented but don't subscribe to any organized religion. I see organized religion as being one of the most divisive constructs in the world today, and the sooner humanity can grow out of labels, identities, dogmas and fixed creeds, the better it will be for our planet. I don't see it happening in my lifetime though. :(

    Much as I still find myself appalled by the orthodox Sunni Islamic tradition, I recognize that there are interpretations of Islam that are much more moderate and progressive. There are many things I still like about Islam ... I certainly like some of the Sufi philosophies that came out of the Islamic tradition. But I will admit that I was disappointed by my study of Islamic mysticism. I found that the most socially liberal, science-friendly and atheist-friendly Sufi Orders were precisely the ones that had absorbed many non-Arab influences, whether Persian, Indian or Turkish, in short these Orders espouse an openly heterodox and non-Islamic Sufism. Some of them even trace Sufism to pre-Islamic times and to the ancient Egyptian Mystery traditions, and claim that Sufism was simply preserved during the Islamic era (thus bypassing the need to deal with the historical Muhammad in detail quite neatly).

    Well, that's about it from me. Hope everyone is well!
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #1 - April 15, 2009, 06:27 PM

    Hi Ned. I've never been first to welcome someone before.   grin12

    I can't imagine what it is like living in Pakistan as a gay man.  I'm encouraged by the many ex Muslims who are from Pakistan - despite what's going on there, it seems like you come across more apostates from there than other places, generally speaking.

    Sufism was my last refuge in the deen.  It didn't work.  I had problems with it other than what you are describing.  In the end, I found it to be spiritually inauthentic and a lot of the states of ecstasy and annihilation rely on manipulated breathing and movements and even drugs apparently in some tariqs.  Anyway, welcome.

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #2 - April 15, 2009, 06:29 PM

    What?! You left atheism? You wicked infidel!  grin12  Tongue

    Welcome and thanks for introducing yourself. You have an interesting background. Hope to read more from you. Btw, you may have noticed that we have a gay, practicing Muslim hanging around here, though he posts very rarely.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #3 - April 15, 2009, 06:45 PM

    Welcome to the forum.  Are you still living in Pakistan, or are you planning to emigrate?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #4 - April 15, 2009, 06:48 PM

    Guys, thanks for the welcome. I'm a gay woman, actually, just to clarify.

    Yeah, Pakistan seems to have quite a few secularists. I'm hoping some sort of secular movement can start up in Pakistan and push for a separation of religion and state, as that is the only hope for Pakistan as far as I can tell.

    Fading, what I found so problematic about Sufism was that orthodox Sufism is barely distinguishable from orthodox Sunni Islam. They follow Shariah, they believe in fixed creeds, in fixed dogmas, and so on. They have the same messed up beliefs about women (not surprising, given that Imam Ghazali was such a misogynist). They are intolerant toward other creeds, they see Islam as the final religion for all time, and Muhammad as the final prophet. They don't have anything positive to say about atheism. I don't find anything spiritual in this sort of dogmatic framework at all -- I find it suffocating.

    Having said that, there are heterodox universalist Sufis (who are however quite openly non-Islamic) that have written some beautiful material like this:

    You, the Ultimate Reality, are All in All.
    Atheism confesses the ineffability of Your Essence.
    Polytheism personifies Your manifold Attributes.
    Monotheism witnesses the unity of Your Being.
    In every God-Ideal an emanation of You shines forth.
    The heart receives of You as much as it can contain.
    When the heart is supple it is capable of every form.
    Then Your manifestations surpass the limitations of belief.

    But Sufis like this are pretty much on the fringes of the Islamic world and totally removed from the "center".
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #5 - April 15, 2009, 06:51 PM

    Yes, I'm planning to immigrate to Canada -- my girlfriend has already gotten citizenship, and we'll probably just get married in a couple of years. Smiley

    However, I do hope to keep travelling to Pakistan, India and Bangladesh, because I like South Asian culture despite all the madness, and I hope to contribute to greater harmony in the South Asian region in some small way -- perhaps by teaching or by helping to set up networks for women, etc. (I'm very inspired by the Self-Employed Women's Association in India -- I wish we could do something similar in Pakistan).
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #6 - April 15, 2009, 06:51 PM

    Welcome
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #7 - April 15, 2009, 07:30 PM

    My apologies. I see now that you said you were a woman; that one totally zoomed over my head.   015

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #8 - April 15, 2009, 07:49 PM

    Welcome Ned.   Greetings

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #9 - April 15, 2009, 08:17 PM

    Hi Ned. Welcome to the forum. I agree with what you said about Sufis. It's always seemed to me that the best of them are just mystics carrying on a pre-Islamic tradition, with just enough of an Islamic overlay to keep them alive under difficult circumstances. Mind you I'm not an expert on all the schools. This is just my impression from a bit of reading around and talking with people.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #10 - April 15, 2009, 09:48 PM

    Hi Ned,  Greetings and Salutations!  I sure hope you can get to Canada to be with your partner.   far away hug

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #11 - April 15, 2009, 10:49 PM

    Hi Ned... nice to see you here.  Afro

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #12 - April 15, 2009, 11:03 PM

     signwelcome

    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I remain.
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #13 - April 16, 2009, 12:38 AM

    Hey Ms. Flanders--

    Welcome! I too was drawn here by moderate and intelligent posts, much like Hassan posts. It's like FFI without all the hate, stupidity and insanity.

    Cool, I hope you find a home with your g/f here in North America. Where in Canada you planning on moving to?

    fuck you
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #14 - April 16, 2009, 08:54 AM

    Hey watch it. I'll have you know we do a fine line in stupidity and insanity. Tongue

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #15 - April 16, 2009, 09:19 AM

    Welcome to the forum ned Smiley
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #16 - April 16, 2009, 10:39 AM

    Dear All,

    I've been a lurker at this forum for a while now, but have been inspired by the balanced and courteous posts of such members as Hassan, whose writings and videos I've really admired.


    Welcome to the forum. Hope you enjoy your stay here.

    Quote
    I'll give a brief introduction. I'm a 26-year-old woman, doing a Master's degree in Psychology right now.


    Normally they force me into seeing a psychologist. 

    Quote
    I was born and raised in Pakistan. I grew up a Sunni Muslim and practiced Islam very seriously until I was about 18. After I got to undergraduate university in Lahore, I got an environment where I could think much more freely, and I think within a year I was through with Islam and with religion in general. I then became an atheistic agnostic.


    For some it takes longer, I left Islam when I was 22 but being a male Islam is more appealing it does not restrict you much. I am also an atheist agnostic. 

    Quote
    I'm also gay and have a long-time partner who I met in Pakistan, so as you can imagine Islam's attitude to homosexuality has a huge impact on my life, as my parents are very socially conservative and also see themselves as practicing Muslims.


    Can I ask you a question if you do not mind, I don't understand this. Why would you mention your sexual preference on a formal introduction thread? I just don't, really understand how anyone can be proud of being a homosexual in evolutionary sense it is a negative trait its akin to being proud of being impotent or paralysed which makes no sense. I don't see people in wheel chairs being proud of being disabled, and being a homosexual on the evolutionary scale is being disabled. But just so you know this has nothing to do with me being homophobic or anything but I am bisexual I've been with a boy when I was younger.

    But look into a guys eyes. Try to show him how you feel. Imagine that this guy is God.

    What if were one to look into a Girls eyes and do the same thing? BUT, I cannot imagine something so great as a guy.
    Quote
    It's a long story and to be honest I don't want to discuss the details (as these things are very private) but after a while I moved out of atheism for a number of reasons and would now put myself in the "spiritual but not religious" camp. I'm metaphysically-oriented but don't subscribe to any organized religion. I see organized religion as being one of the most divisive constructs in the world today, and the sooner humanity can grow out of labels, identities, dogmas and fixed creeds, the better it will be for our planet. I don't see it happening in my lifetime though. :(


    So you replace Islamic fairy-tales with personal fairy-tales to give yourself a "good" feeling.

    Quote
    Much as I still find myself appalled by the orthodox Sunni Islamic tradition, I recognize that there are interpretations of Islam that are much more moderate and progressive. There are many things I still like about Islam ... I certainly like some of the Sufi philosophies that came out of the Islamic tradition. But I will admit that I was disappointed by my study of Islamic mysticism. I found that the most socially liberal, science-friendly and atheist-friendly Sufi Orders were precisely the ones that had absorbed many non-Arab influences, whether Persian, Indian or Turkish, in short these Orders espouse an openly heterodox and non-Islamic Sufism. Some of them even trace Sufism to pre-Islamic times and to the ancient Egyptian Mystery traditions, and claim that Sufism was simply preserved during the Islamic era (thus bypassing the need to deal with the historical Muhammad in detail quite neatly).

    Well, that's about it from me. Hope everyone is well!


    I do also have a great affinity for Sufism, but I don't care to believe in its supernatural elements for me references to spirituality need to be taken out of Sufism, and it should just deal with ethics much like Buddhism.   
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #17 - April 16, 2009, 10:46 AM

    Guys, thanks for the welcome. I'm a gay woman, actually, just to clarify.

    Yeah, Pakistan seems to have quite a few secularists. I'm hoping some sort of secular movement can start up in Pakistan and push for a separation of religion and state, as that is the only hope for Pakistan as far as I can tell.

    Fading, what I found so problematic about Sufism was that orthodox Sufism is barely distinguishable from orthodox Sunni Islam. They follow Shariah, they believe in fixed creeds, in fixed dogmas, and so on. They have the same messed up beliefs about women (not surprising, given that Imam Ghazali was such a misogynist). They are intolerant toward other creeds, they see Islam as the final religion for all time, and Muhammad as the final prophet. They don't have anything positive to say about atheism. I don't find anything spiritual in this sort of dogmatic framework at all -- I find it suffocating.

    Having said that, there are heterodox universalist Sufis (who are however quite openly non-Islamic) that have written some beautiful material like this:

    You, the Ultimate Reality, are All in All.
    Atheism confesses the ineffability of Your Essence.
    Polytheism personifies Your manifold Attributes.
    Monotheism witnesses the unity of Your Being.
    In every God-Ideal an emanation of You shines forth.
    The heart receives of You as much as it can contain.
    When the heart is supple it is capable of every form.
    Then Your manifestations surpass the limitations of belief.

    But Sufis like this are pretty much on the fringes of the Islamic world and totally removed from the "center".


    Ghazali declared that mathematics was the work of the devil, and he rejected rationalism and naturalism as valid ways to understand the world. The intellectual foundation of Islam collapsed due to Ghazali's rejection of science, and it has not recovered since.

    During these 300 years, Islam was at the forefront of naturalistic science. But in the 12th Century Ghazali killed it.
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #18 - April 16, 2009, 11:04 AM

    Can I ask you a question if you do not mind, I don't understand this. Why would you mention your sexual preference on a formal introduction thread? I just don't, really understand how anyone can be proud of being a homosexual in evolutionary sense it is a negative trait its akin to being proud of being impotent or paralysed which makes no sense. I don't see people in wheel chairs being proud of being disabled, and being a homosexual on the evolutionary scale is being disabled. But just so you know this has nothing to do with me being homophobic or anything but I am bisexual I've been with a boy when I was younger.

    Homosexuality and paralysis and hardly comparable Tut, one's a disability and the other isn't.
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #19 - April 16, 2009, 11:08 AM

    Homosexuality and paralysis and hardly comparable Tut, one's a disability and the other isn't.


    In the evolutionary sense it is a disability. For humans, i.e. lack of ability to raise off-spring naturally. Gays wanting adoption rights is like paralysed people asking for wheel chairs.
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #20 - April 16, 2009, 11:13 AM

    Sexual orientation is also part of someones identity, if you allow/want it to be. That is why it was probably mentioned.

    Centre of attention again, just the way you like it. 

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #21 - April 16, 2009, 11:14 AM

    That can be a slogan for gays wanting to adopt. Something like:

    "You'll not deny a wheel chair to a disabled person, then why deny adoption rights to homosexuals?"

  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #22 - April 16, 2009, 11:14 AM

    In the evolutionary sense it is a disability.

    Who said that - Darwin or King Tut? Evolution has no sense nor direction.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #23 - April 16, 2009, 11:15 AM

    Homosexuality and paralysis and hardly comparable Tut, one's a disability and the other isn't.


    In the evolutionary sense it is a disability.

    Prove that assertion.  cool2

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #24 - April 16, 2009, 11:17 AM

    Sexual orientation is also part of someones identity, if you allow/want it to be. That is why it was probably mentioned.

    Centre of attention again, just the way you like it. 


    As much as being a foot fetishist is part of my identity? Please get real. Centre of attention? Did I not disparage you last for making foolish claims? now child go away play on the train tracks and let the adults have a discourse.
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #25 - April 16, 2009, 11:22 AM

    Homosexuality and paralysis and hardly comparable Tut, one's a disability and the other isn't.


    In the evolutionary sense it is a disability.

    Prove that assertion.  cool2


    In evolution terms it is a negative, you cannot breed naturally. It is a negative aspect, as species we need to disperse our genes, do you know why according to Darwinian evolution a woman would jump into a river to save her child despite not having the ability to swim and would do so at is own personal risk? it is not out of empathy for the child its out of selfishness, the selfishness to keep your own genes going and reproducing more genes.   
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #26 - April 16, 2009, 11:24 AM

    The way you phrased it was obviously to provoke a reaction, sounds like you need to grow up.  

    There are less offensive ways to start a discussion, ones that dont hurt ordinary people feelings by insinuating they are disabled.  

    You could have just asked do you think homosexuality is part of natural evolution, or asked why she felt the need to explain her sexuality, thus avoiding the need to make assumptions and cause offence.  

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #27 - April 16, 2009, 11:27 AM

    In the evolutionary sense it is a disability.

    Who said that - Darwin or King Tut? Evolution has no sense nor direction.


    Where did I assert it does, evolution is competently naturally, species which cannot bread or cannot adapt to the environment fast enough die off, there are always negative an positive mutations in evolution sometimes a mutation might give you an advantage sometimes it might be a negative mutation. According natural selection only the fit species which are able to breed and have positive mutations will live. Pandas for example have stopped fucking, which has made them almost extinct, that is natural selection for you, as off spring are not being born. 
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #28 - April 16, 2009, 11:31 AM

    The way you phrased it was obviously to provoke a reaction, sounds like you need to grow up.  

    There are less offensive ways to start a discussion, ones that dont hurt ordinary people feelings by insinuating they are disabled.  

    You could have just asked do you think homosexuality is part of natural evolution, or asked why she felt the need to explain her sexuality, thus avoiding the need to make assumptions and cause offence.  


    I must admit you are right there, and I do apologize for is anyone found my opinion to be offensive. I just generally express my opinion how I rationalize them in my head. Now that you mentioned it, I feel bad about it and have a great deal of remorse for the way I expressed myself. But you all should know me, I just come across as an assholes I am pretty empathetic person actually.   
  • Re: hello from a new member
     Reply #29 - April 16, 2009, 11:34 AM

    Homosexuality and paralysis and hardly comparable Tut, one's a disability and the other isn't.


    In the evolutionary sense it is a disability.

    Prove that assertion.  cool2


    In evolution terms it is a negative, you cannot breed naturally. It is a negative aspect, as species we need to disperse our genes, do you know why according to Darwinian evolution a woman would jump into a river to save her child despite not having the ability to swim and would do so at is own personal risk? it is not out of empathy for the child its out of selfishness, the selfishness to keep your own genes going and reproducing more genes.   

    To prove that homosexuality is a "disability in evolutionary terms" you would have to prove that it was detrimental to the survival of the species as a whole. I am willing to bet that you will be unable to do this.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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