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 Topic: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?

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  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     OP - April 16, 2009, 12:56 AM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUiEuKzKSDM&feature=channel_page

    Just watch this video, he is a typical fucking apologist who has the same gymnastics "its fabricated, weak, etc" But what I don't understand is that pretty much every scholar in the 9th-10th century accepted the fact that apostates should be killed. Even when I told my muslim friends about this, they all said that this is a mere fabication. Uhh, WHY!?! False hadith.
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
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  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #1 - April 16, 2009, 08:03 AM
    I cannot watch the video because I am ninja-browsing the web at work using ghostfox firefox extension Tongue

    But, so far, I have noticed that when approaching apologists with the death penalty issue you simply have to word your question correctly: instead of asking "Should apostasy be punished with death?" you better ask "Is it wrong to punish apostasy with death?"
    Because, as far as I have understood, a lot of them are still ok with SOMEBODY ELSE doing the killing :(
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #2 - April 16, 2009, 08:05 AM
    Well according to that "chaplain" last week Allah knows best and offing apostates is the right thing to do.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #3 - April 16, 2009, 02:38 PM
    Maybe they deny it because they are not actually bad people and don't actually think that apostates should be executed, even though their holy hadith say they should.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #4 - April 16, 2009, 04:23 PM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on April 16, 2009, 12:56 AM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUiEuKzKSDM&feature=channel_page

    Just watch this video, he is a typical fucking apologist who has the same gymnastics "its fabricated, weak, etc" But what I don't understand is that pretty much every scholar in the 9th-10th century accepted the fact that apostates should be killed. Even when I told my muslim friends about this, they all said that this is a mere fabication. Uhh, WHY!?! False hadith.


    Dont be surpised, some Muslims dont even accept the hadith, unless it agrees with their version of Quran.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #5 - April 16, 2009, 05:19 PM
    But the ahadith for executing apostates are classed as 'sahih', not da'eef or fabricated. I think I agree with aliadiere on this one.
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #6 - April 16, 2009, 05:28 PM
    Quote from: Pazuzu on April 16, 2009, 05:19 PM
    But the ahadith for executing apostates are classed as 'sahih', not da'eef or fabricated. I think I agree with aliadiere on this one.

    I agree too, but doubt BMZ and others would agree
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  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #7 - April 16, 2009, 05:44 PM
    What I've heard are mostly "re-interpretations" of the hadith. For example, the theory that death for an apostate is only prescribed IF it happens at a time of war AND the apostate turns to fight against the Islamic state. In this way, it is compared to the crime of treason in Western countries.
    "when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #8 - April 16, 2009, 06:11 PM
    Quote from: AlmostAisha on April 16, 2009, 05:44 PM
    What I've heard are mostly "re-interpretations" of the hadith. For example, the theory that death for an apostate is only prescribed IF it happens at a time of war AND the apostate turns to fight against the Islamic state. In this way, it is compared to the crime of treason in Western countries.

    I seem to be running into a whole lot of Quran only muslims lately - its a new breed that attempts to apply logic to religion thus slowing down its inevitable demise e.g. see Marleya's & BMZs posts
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #9 - April 16, 2009, 06:30 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 16, 2009, 06:11 PM
    I seem to be running into a whole lot of Quran only muslims lately - its a new breed that attempts to apply logic to religion thus slowing down its inevitable demise e.g. see Marleya's & BMZs posts


    Maybe slowing down its demise is unfavorable, but I wouldn't mind having Islam around so much if all Muslims switched to this logical school of thought. This is after all what happened with Christianity right? Though many of its teachings are barbaric, the new interpretations allow people to ignore the bad and cultivate the good.

    Religion still causes needless suffering and backwardness sometimes, but it is *much* less harmful when the majority of people cherry-pick the good, and everyone ignores the *really* bad teachings.

    The problem is that as long as there are some followers, as the case is with Islam, who take everything literally- including the violent and barbaric teachings- then those that are cherry-picking are actually in a way supporting the violent followers... if only with their numbers and approval of the religious texts.
    "when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #10 - April 16, 2009, 06:55 PM
    Quote from: AlmostAisha on April 16, 2009, 06:30 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 16, 2009, 06:11 PM
    I seem to be running into a whole lot of Quran only muslims lately - its a new breed that attempts to apply logic to religion thus slowing down its inevitable demise e.g. see Marleya's & BMZs posts


    Maybe slowing down its demise is unfavorable, but I wouldn't mind having Islam around so much if all Muslims switched to this logical school of thought. This is after all what happened with Christianity right?

    True
    Quote
    Though many of its teachings are barbaric, the new interpretations allow people to ignore the bad and cultivate the good.

    Religion still causes needless suffering and backwardness sometimes, but it is *much* less harmful when the majority of people cherry-pick the good, and everyone ignores the *really* bad teachings.

    The problem is that as long as there are some followers, as the case is with Islam, who take everything literally- including the violent and barbaric teachings- then those that are cherry-picking are actually in a way supporting the violent followers... if only with their numbers and approval of the religious texts.

    True
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #11 - April 16, 2009, 07:08 PM
    Quote from: AlmostAisha on April 16, 2009, 05:44 PM
    What I've heard are mostly "re-interpretations" of the hadith. For example, the theory that death for an apostate is only prescribed IF it happens at a time of war AND the apostate turns to fight against the Islamic state. In this way, it is compared to the crime of treason in Western countries.


    I've already posted my responses to claims like this from muslims on other forums. I consider it a false metaphor to equate apostasy with treason. (I realise you're not doing that, you're simply pointing out what people have said.)

    I used to excuse execution for apostates by tying it to the context at that time: the muslims were so few that apostasy running rampant would kill off the ummah. But from that I realised I didn't care about people apostating now (it never bothered me in a violent way, more of a surprised reaction to apostasy, plus disbelief and suspicion), and that you could tie most if not all of Islam to the context of the time.

    As a general issue, yes I separate the people from the ideologies, and would prefer a more reformed Islam, but I honestly consider religion bad for people's thought processes because of the way it brainwashes its adherents into accept something without question, and then holding to it not only in the absence of proof, but oft times directly in the face of contravening evidence! I consider that irrationality of the highest order, and certainly not worthy of respect.
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #12 - April 16, 2009, 07:39 PM
    Quote from: Pazuzu on April 16, 2009, 07:08 PM
    Quote from: AlmostAisha on April 16, 2009, 05:44 PM
    What I've heard are mostly "re-interpretations" of the hadith. For example, the theory that death for an apostate is only prescribed IF it happens at a time of war AND the apostate turns to fight against the Islamic state. In this way, it is compared to the crime of treason in Western countries.


    I've already posted my responses to claims like this from muslims on other forums. I consider it a false metaphor to equate apostasy with treason. (I realise you're not doing that, you're simply pointing out what people have said.)


    I'd be interested to read how you argue against the claim, would you mind giving me a link?  Smiley

    Quote from: Pazuzu on April 16, 2009, 07:08 PM
    As a general issue, yes I separate the people from the ideologies, and would prefer a more reformed Islam, but I honestly consider religion bad for people's thought processes because of the way it brainwashes its adherents into accept something without question, and then holding to it not only in the absence of proof, but oft times directly in the face of contravening evidence! I consider that irrationality of the highest order, and certainly not worthy of respect.


    Totally agree.
    "when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #13 - April 16, 2009, 08:34 PM
    I made two points only:

    1. To label a change in a belief as commensurate with treason represents the height of illogicality. It indicates nothing other than a dismissal of a previously held philosophical position. When comparing apostasy to treason, the only proportionate analogy comes with a person renouncing his/her citizenship of any nation - hardly an act worthy of capital punishment!

    2. A final point, in the form of two queries: in a secular and liberal democratic society (in which the general belief and value of democracy and libertarianism binds the state together), does a person disagreeing with democracy or libertarianism constitute having committed treason? Moreover, should such a person suffer threats of capital punishment?
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #14 - April 16, 2009, 10:01 PM
    Well I totally agree with your points, if the other person is saying that simply becoming an apostate is synonymous with treason and enough to warrant the death penalty- under any circumstances, war or not.

    However, the interpretation I have seen requires BOTH conditions:

    Quote from: AlmostAisha on April 16, 2009, 05:44 PM
    death for an apostate is only prescribed IF it happens at a time of war AND the apostate turns to fight against the Islamic state. In this way, it is compared to the crime of treason in Western countries.


    since actual fighting against the state is required by this interpretation, isn't it kind of, sort of okay to compare it to treason?

    Then again there are a couple of problems that I see even with this liberal interpretation..

    1) What exactly constitutes 'a time of war'? Wouldn't some Muslims be able to say that as long as the whole world is not subdued in an Islamic state the world is in a state of war? The division of  the word into "house of peace" and "house of war", as well as the Quran's last commandments and narrations that have Mohammed saying he's been ordered to fight until every person has uttered "la ilaha ilallah", could support their stance.

    2) Would the Islamic state wait for this person to actually fight them... or would they want to be proactive and kill the person because they think there's a *potential* that the apostate will fight the state? According to this guy's video Umar would interrogate the person, and based on the outcome of the interview  he'd determine whether the apostate was a "danger" or not. This definitely takes away from the apperance of justice in this interpretation. No modern government would condemn someone to death because they *suspect* that the person will commit treason.




    "when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #15 - April 17, 2009, 06:50 PM
    Quote from: AlmostAisha on April 16, 2009, 10:01 PM
    No modern government would condemn someone to death because they *suspect* that the person will commit treason.

     The spirit of Jean Charles de Menezes would like a word...
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #16 - April 18, 2009, 08:33 AM
    Quote from: Pazuzu on April 17, 2009, 06:50 PM
    Quote from: AlmostAisha on April 16, 2009, 10:01 PM
    No modern government would condemn someone to death because they *suspect* that the person will commit treason.

     The spirit of Jean Charles de Menezes would like a word...


    That's quite sad, I hadn't heard about this.

    Still, it's different from Umer's "treason" policy (according to the apologist on the video) in many ways.

    1) The man was being pursued because he was suspected of having already carried out an attack the day before. This is different from the way that Umer simply examined if the apostate might in the future become a threat to the state, even if he had done no crime in the past.

    2) The police were ordered to detain him, not kill him. This tale of mistaken identity and subsequent tragedy is more an example of police incompetency than a fault in policies of the state. In other words, it was an *accident*, it's not how the operation was meant to go.

    3) Public opinion was very much against the incident, so much so that several investigations were conducted into the event and the police officers' actions were put on trial. In an Islamic state, public opinion is irrelevant- what the Caliph says goes.

    If the Caliph is simply meant to interview an apostate and based on that determine whether they are a potential threat, nobody can question his decision when he decides to kill the apostate after the interview. It IS what is meant to happen.

    "when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #17 - April 19, 2009, 10:00 AM
    Apostasy in Islam:Richard Dawkins extracts some truth from a Muslim

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQzuFrMRA3M&feature=player_embedded
    "when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #18 - April 20, 2009, 12:14 AM
    I remember seeing this a while back. I love the way he repeatedly asks him about apostasy. Also, in reference to the muslim himself: I like his beard.
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #19 - April 20, 2009, 02:02 AM


    What if someone attempts to leave Islam?



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRYsAljdsmQ
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  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #20 - April 20, 2009, 09:27 AM
    Quote from: kope on April 20, 2009, 02:02 AM


    What if someone attempts to leave Islam?



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRYsAljdsmQ


    Send it to Dawkins, kope. Thanks

    Salaams
    BMZ
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #21 - April 20, 2009, 09:48 AM
    Near the end the "Imam" says...I fail to see the connection between death for apostacy in an Islamic country and Great Britain...whats this got to do with that? (paraphrasing).

    Well lets see...Muslims ALL over the world take a very personal interest in another Muslim spiritual state...and many of those Muslims do not care whether you are within a socalled Islamic state or in, say, Great Britain...they will enforce the death penalty for your audacity to proclaim apostacy if that is what they believe you deserve. Unfortunately...Islamic rules do not stay within Islamic borders...just ask the Dutch writer...the many many girls (women) that are "honor killed" while living in nonIslamic states.

    So death for apostacy has everything to do with everything as long as there are Muslims willing to enforce their belief that death is deserved.  thnkyu

    btw...I have Dawkins book...really enjoyed it...thats the first time I seen him live...he doesnt look like his text  Roll Eyes
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #22 - April 20, 2009, 09:50 AM
    That still overlooks the fact that the "imam" was basically saying killing apostates was just dandy if the laws of the country allowed you to. It would have been nice to see him forced to justify that.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why do so many muslims deny the death penalty for apostates?
     Reply #23 - April 20, 2009, 09:56 AM
    I'm trying to recall someone's evisceration of the analogy "apostasy is treason, kill apostates like traitors", it was sharp and funny; I'm racking my brains trying to recall it! finmad
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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