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 Topic: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam

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  • Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     OP - April 18, 2009, 03:57 PM
    A talk by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf.

    If the "luminaries" of the Islamic world think like this, is it any surprise that the radicals behave the way they do?

    Part 1:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPmMUibmYY

    Part 2:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB0DN3HjgcA

    Part 3:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlbX9OMpmY8
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #1 - April 18, 2009, 03:57 PM
    Part 4:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f9yxs-4n70

    Part 5:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HovtjfS63p8

    Part 6:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnXaC2x-FcI
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #2 - April 18, 2009, 03:57 PM
    Part 7:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGaJzJhkUA8

    Part 8:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOnMgjsJI9w

    Part 9:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5OoUkEISQQ
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #3 - April 18, 2009, 04:00 PM
    Part 10:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrXk-4p7Aww

    Part 11:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t9XgLzHu08
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #4 - April 18, 2009, 04:31 PM
    I've only watched the first one, already a couple of glaring errors...

    "Transubstantiation is something the Catholic Church used to teach, now they're ashamed of it."  Rubbish!  Transubstantiation is still the teaching of the Catholic Church, and I never came across any practising Catholic who was ashamed of it.

    "Most science is just theory, not fact."  Massive fail.   The scientific definition of a theory is one that explains facts and can accurately predict the outcome of future experiments.  He's using the layman's definition of theory as some kind of a random, semi-educated guess. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #5 - April 18, 2009, 04:52 PM
    Keep watching it and you'll see that he actually defends some of the more barbaric laws in the Shariah.

    Things like this make me wonder how different "Traditional Islam" and "Islamism" really are. :(
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #6 - April 19, 2009, 09:38 AM
    It's normal for Islamic scholars to defend some of the more barbaric aspects of sharia. They do it all the time.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #7 - April 19, 2009, 01:04 PM
    Watching the first now...

    I have met Hamza Yusuf a few times and had to pull secondary schools girls away from him at Islamia School (and give them a lesson in Islamic Adab lol) when they mobbed him and asked him to sign their exercise books - like he was Michael Jackson - during a visit.

    That is pretty much how he and some of the more well know speakers of the 'traditional' Islam movement are regarded. The young and educated Muslims in the west love them.

    Although I knew a lot of these guys I was never one of them and I always felt uncomfortable about the way they loved to dazzle their audience with their eloquence and knowledge and yet say very little in reality - and worst of all for me fail to answer the real issues and questions that were troubling me. They would mention the issues but cleverly avoid them or give a confusing answer that gave the illusion they had answered it - but they hadn't.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #8 - April 19, 2009, 01:18 PM
    I've noticed that applies to a lot of religious scholars of any persuasion. The bit about "eloquence and knowledge and yet say very little in reality", that is. They tend to be in love with words because they cannot deal with the substance, so the words let them blind themselves to the vacuity of their own position.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #9 - April 19, 2009, 01:21 PM
    watching no 2 and as usual it's all 'reassurance' - words to help muslims hang on to their faith that is slipping away - I have heard enough tbh - i have heard all this before many times and that is why I rejected it all lol
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #10 - April 19, 2009, 01:27 PM
    Muslims in the west are not satisfied with the (real) traditional arguments of the classical Muslim Scholars or the Mullah in Muslim countries.

    It is no surprise that the main speakers of this (Neo) traditionalist movement are western converts who understand the needs of the western Muslim. At least they know how to make things sound nice for them and keep them happy.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #11 - April 19, 2009, 04:47 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 19, 2009, 01:04 PM
    Watching the first now...

    I have met Hamza Yusuf a few times and had to pull secondary schools girls away from him at Islamia School (and give them a lesson in Islamic Adab lol) when they mobbed him and asked him to sign their exercise books - like he was Michael Jackson - during a visit.

    That is pretty much how he and some of the more well know speakers of the 'traditional' Islam movement are regarded. The young and educated Muslims in the west love them.

    Although I knew a lot of these guys I was never one of them and I always felt uncomfortable about the way they loved to dazzle their audience with their eloquence and knowledge and yet say very little in reality - and worst of all for me fail to answer the real issues and questions that were troubling me. They would mention the issues but cleverly avoid them or give a confusing answer that gave the illusion they had answered it - but they hadn't.


     You met Hamza Yusuf and Abdul Hakim Murad which is something that all my muslim friends would go crazy if they could meet them. Hassan, one question. Since you live in the U.K., have you ever met Abu Usamah or Khalid Yasin? They are converts and they both live in the U.K.
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #12 - April 19, 2009, 07:19 PM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on April 19, 2009, 04:47 PM
    You met Hamza Yusuf and Abdul Hakim Murad which is something that all my muslim friends would go crazy if they could meet them.


    My kids were playing with Abdul Hakim's kids the other day.

    Quote from: Cool Canadian on April 19, 2009, 04:47 PM
    Hassan, one question. Since you live in the U.K., have you ever met Abu Usamah or Khalid Yasin? They are converts and they both live in the U.K.


    Nope, never met either. I actually had to look up Abu Usamah and I only know Khalid Yasin from his Youtube videos.

  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #13 - April 19, 2009, 07:32 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 19, 2009, 07:19 PM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on April 19, 2009, 04:47 PM
    You met Hamza Yusuf and Abdul Hakim Murad which is something that all my muslim friends would go crazy if they could meet them.


    My kids were playing with Abdul Hakim's kids the other day.

    Quote from: Cool Canadian on April 19, 2009, 04:47 PM
    Hassan, one question. Since you live in the U.K., have you ever met Abu Usamah or Khalid Yasin? They are converts and they both live in the U.K.


    Nope, never met either. I actually had to look up Abu Usamah and I only know Khalid Yasin from his Youtube videos.




    Well since you don't know too much about Abu Usamah, well he a nutcase in my opinion lol. In one video he says how magicians and people who practice magic should be killed Thinking hard

    well here is a video link if you want to watch it. Also, this guy says it straight up, he doesn't sugar coat anything, he even admitted in some of his videos that Muhammad killed people by stoning them to death for adultery.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmrNHKvpdQE
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #14 - April 20, 2009, 01:12 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 19, 2009, 07:19 PM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on April 19, 2009, 04:47 PM
    You met Hamza Yusuf and Abdul Hakim Murad which is something that all my muslim friends would go crazy if they could meet them.


    My kids were playing with Abdul Hakim's kids the other day.

    Hassan, please don't answer this if it's too private, but is your spouse still Muslim? Are you "out" to your family about being a non-Muslim? I'm just wondering how it's been panning out for you.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #15 - April 20, 2009, 02:22 PM
    Quote from: ned on April 20, 2009, 01:12 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 19, 2009, 07:19 PM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on April 19, 2009, 04:47 PM
    You met Hamza Yusuf and Abdul Hakim Murad which is something that all my muslim friends would go crazy if they could meet them.


    My kids were playing with Abdul Hakim's kids the other day.

    Hassan, please don't answer this if it's too private, but is your spouse still Muslim? Are you "out" to your family about being a non-Muslim? I'm just wondering how it's been panning out for you.


    I'm "Out & Proud" lol  grin12 And tbh I am not finding it a big problem.

    I'm divorced and have 4 kids (from two different wives - I wasn't married to them at the same time I hasten to add lol). They both know and are both quite religious (wear hijab, pray etc.. - one is Moroccan the other is Yemeni) and so are not terribly happy - but hey! This is the UK not Iran thank God lol

    All my kids went to Islamia School and were religious and my ex's are obviously concerned that I will influence them. Though I always say to my kids it's up to you what you believe you need to think for yourself.

    My eldest boy (21) says he doesn't believe in Islam anymore. My 17 year-old daughter is Muslim. My 9 year-old son and 8 year-old daughter are obviously a little young to have a clear or consistent opinion yet, but he says quite often that he's "nothing" when asked what religion he is. She says she's a Muslim. (My eldest son stays on and off with me - my 17 year-old daughter stays with her mum and the two little one's live with me)

    I live near my Muslim brother's farm in Oxfordshire and as his wife is the sister of Abdul-Hakim's wife I see them from time to time on the farm. Everyone knows where I stand on religion and some have seen my videos. I used to get into heated debates with my brother but we don't bother now - as we never get anywhere - we just get on with our lives.


  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #16 - April 20, 2009, 02:47 PM
    Someone asked me this question on My Story:

    Hi Abooali. I am glad you have blogged your story; I really enjoyed reading it. But I was wondering if you don?t fear violence or threats from any British Muslim extremists who happen upon your blog. I for one prefer anonymity and would never post my picture on my blog. What makes you so care-free?

    This was my reply:

    Hi blueish,

    A life lived in fear is not worth living. Besides, I reckon I am more likely to be knocked down crossing the road than killed by an extremist who took offence to my blog.

    I believe a great deal of the paranoia and scaremongering that goes on about Muslims is just pure nonsense. Of course I know there is always the odd nutter, but then again I could also be stabbed by a mugger while walking down the road. One can?t just hide behind a closed door afraid to go out. The more normal we make it the safer it will be for others in the same boat.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #17 - April 20, 2009, 02:55 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 20, 2009, 02:47 PM
    The more normal we make it the safer it will be for others in the same boat.

    Or you just start the beginning of the ex-muslims holocaust Tongue

    I really do admire you for your bravery Hassan. You have made me less paranoid about coming out publicly without fearing repercussions Smiley Hopefully people like you will encourage others to come out publicly and make being an ex-muslim acceptable.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #18 - April 20, 2009, 02:58 PM
    Same here, he has achieved that already with some members here who have displayed their photos.. we still have a long road to travel though
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #19 - April 20, 2009, 04:11 PM
    Quote from: ned on April 18, 2009, 04:52 PM
    Keep watching it and you'll see that he actually defends some of the more barbaric laws in the Shariah.

    Things like this make me wonder how different "Traditional Islam" and "Islamism" really are. :(


    Mark Hanson is such a tool.  I used to feel sorry for him, as one could see him really struggling to reconcile some of his personal outlooks and feelings with what the Shariah says.  I no longer feel sorry for him just based on what I personally know of the man and his role in some of the problems confronting his followers and other Muslims. 

    For instance, his recent video on domestic violence has him doing all sorts of logical and linguistic gymnastics in order to come to the conclusion that you're absolutely not allowed to hit your wife in Islam, let alone beat her.  It's laughable, because the evidence on 4:34 from scholars with much more education and training than him - people he will quote and revere in other situations - were quite clear on what it means.  But it's also sad, because you know that for all of his faults - and they are many - he would never raise his  hand against his wife or another woman.  And here he is, in a speech taped and released so everyone could view it, struggling to make sense of the fact that his religion allows it and ultimately committing yet another act of intellectual cowardice to try and make of Islam what he wants. In this way, he is no different than all those progressive Muslims he and his fans lament and mock. 

    Regarding the difference between Traditional Islam and Islamism, there are differences, mainly in methodology and acceptance.   Your average TM accepts that there is no caliphate and not likely to be one anytime soon, so they are more willing to focus their attention on peaceful endevours, participating in 'interfaith' activities, and the like.  However, when it comes to policing their own (ie, Muslim to Muslim issues, like gender, child rearing, masjid etiquettes), they are just as bad as the Islamist types, sometimes exceeding them in conservativism. 
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #20 - April 20, 2009, 04:18 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 19, 2009, 01:04 PM
    That is pretty much how he and some of the more well know speakers of the 'traditional' Islam movement are regarded. The young and educated Muslims in the west love them.


    Because for all the razzle dazzle that is apparent to people who are no longer Muslim, they were the first - only? - ones who would come to you referencing Western philosophers, pop culture, great Sufis of the past, and the Sahaba, who spoke in the cadence and mannerisms we were familiar with, rather than struggling with the English language.  It seems like when you're outside of the whole Islamic paradigm, then you can see how they really have no idea what they're talking about (like Mark 'Hamza Yusuf' Hanson on science, for example) and you see how they are as ridiculous as their ikhwan or Salafee counterparts. 

    Also, I'm not sure how this played out in the UK but in Canada and the US it was like a response to, a reaction against, an alternative to the Salafee movement that felt emotionally, spiritually, and mentally suffocating.  I think because of this very emotional reaction to these guys, that is why they have gotten away with what they have for so long, whether it is the scandals of the Sufi shaykhs or simply the lack of real scholarship, the polemics of the other guys, the very high speaking fees and frills and extras they demand from congregations, etc. 

    Quote
    and worst of all for me fail to answer the real issues and questions that were troubling me. They would mention the issues but cleverly avoid them or give a confusing answer that gave the illusion they had answered it - but they hadn't.


    Yeah and a lot of them at the end of the day, when you're asking them the hard questions, are not ashamed to tell you just to follow the fatwa or the opinion and not question it.  Just like the Salafees they criticise.  Demanding the blind faith they claim has no place in the deen.
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #21 - April 20, 2009, 07:15 PM
    "Newton, this giant to the Western civilization... who gave them the foundation of their physics"

    I wasn't aware that a scientific models belonged exclusively to on civilization or another...

    ugh.

    I used to think Hamza Yusuf was alright until I saw him in this interview with a lady, and all he could seem to do was interrupt her.  And then I saw more videos like these... and I don't think he's all that cool anymore.


    .... holy crap.  By the 6th video, he's going on about how Bert and Ernie are subliminal gay messages to kids, and how Disney's Alladin was designed to secretly undermine Shariah...

    dummmmb.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #22 - April 22, 2009, 05:20 PM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on April 19, 2009, 07:32 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 19, 2009, 07:19 PM

    Nope, never met either. I actually had to look up Abu Usamah and I only know Khalid Yasin from his Youtube videos.




    Well since you don't know too much about Abu Usamah, well he a nutcase in my opinion lol. In one video he says how magicians and people who practice magic should be killed Thinking hard

    well here is a video link if you want to watch it. Also, this guy says it straight up, he doesn't sugar coat anything, he even admitted in some of his videos that Muhammad killed people by stoning them to death for adultery.



    I have actually met Abu Usamah and used to go to his lecturers quite frequently. I really do not like his arrogance (which I have found is characteristic of most salafis) and some of his views, but he does not make me as angry as some of the people in his mosque.

    One thing I have to commend him for is he is definitely not an apologist, and he is law abiding. When I was still Muslim, I went to one of his talks about homosexuality and I was surprised at his response when someone asked him what we can do about homosexuals in Britain. He said that as we are living under British law, and British law permits homosexuality, we are not allowed to harrass or abuse homosexuals and are not allowed to accuse anyone of being a non-muslim on the grounds of them being a homosexual.

    He might be law abiding, but his views on the other hand are typical of these arrogant salafis.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #23 - April 22, 2009, 06:41 PM
    So what he was effectively saying was that it would be fine to treat homosexuals like dirt if you were living in an Islamic country. This "escape clause" really annoys me. Interviewers should ask hard and pointed questions of people like him. He's trying to project an image of moderation without actually embracing it.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #24 - April 22, 2009, 06:46 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on April 22, 2009, 06:41 PM
    So what he was effectively saying was that it would be fine to treat homosexuals like dirt if you were living in an Islamic country. This "escape clause" really annoys me. Interviewers should ask hard and pointed questions of people like him. He's trying to project an image of moderation without actually embracing it.


    I'm not defending his views and his views of homosexuality were typical of salafis. He does not try to project an image of moderation, he is definitely not an apologist and that was not in an interview but a talk in a mosque to Muslims so he can pretty much say what he likes.

    The point I was making was he was just saying that Muslims should live by the law of the country in which they are living.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #25 - April 22, 2009, 07:00 PM
    Ok. I was thinking of that other twit in another thread. The one in that video with Dawkins. It's common for imams or whatever to make a point of talking about UK law (or whatever country they reside in) when sharia is mentioned as a way of deflecting attention from sharia's worst excesses. The recent debacle with the Muslim 'chaplain' at a university in the US is another example.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #26 - April 22, 2009, 07:22 PM
    Quote from: Variable on April 20, 2009, 07:15 PM
    "Newton, this giant to the Western civilization... who gave them the foundation of their physics"

    I wasn't aware that a scientific models belonged exclusively to on civilization or another...

    From now on, my new motto will be...
    "All your physics are belong to us!"
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #27 - April 22, 2009, 07:54 PM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on April 22, 2009, 07:22 PM
    Quote from: Variable on April 20, 2009, 07:15 PM
    "Newton, this giant to the Western civilization... who gave them the foundation of their physics"

    I wasn't aware that a scientific models belonged exclusively to on civilization or another...

    From now on, my new motto will be...
    "All your physics are belong to us!"

    Paging teh lolcatz. Will teh lolcatz please report to administration. Kthnxbai. parrot
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #28 - April 24, 2009, 04:44 PM
    In my opinion, Sh. Hamza is a perfect example of what happens when a person is inherently better than the religion they're trying to follow.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #29 - April 24, 2009, 04:59 PM
    Quote from: crueljewel on April 24, 2009, 04:44 PM
    In my opinion, Sh. Hamza is a perfect example of what happens when a person is inherently better than the religion they're trying to follow.


    I think most people are inherently better than their religion.  After all, how many Jews stone people for working on the Sabbath?  How many Christian denominations still insist that women remain silent in church?  And how many muslims beat their wives when they fear rebellion?

    They're all backward in morality, and most people have progressed beyond  their moral codes, while for some reason still needing them emotionally.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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