Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


New Britain
Today at 09:40 AM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
Yesterday at 09:33 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
Yesterday at 01:34 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
January 06, 2025, 09:50 AM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
December 29, 2024, 12:03 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
December 29, 2024, 11:55 AM

News From Syria
by zeca
December 28, 2024, 12:29 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
December 27, 2024, 12:20 PM

Mo Salah
December 26, 2024, 05:30 AM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
December 25, 2024, 10:58 AM

What's happened to the fo...
December 25, 2024, 02:29 AM

Berlin car crasher
by zeca
December 21, 2024, 11:10 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Light discussion on atheism

 (Read 3903 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Light discussion on atheism
     OP - April 22, 2009, 04:06 PM


    We often hear (mostly from religious people) that atheists have either lost their moral compass (apostates) or simply lack any sound moral foundation.

    Some of Berberella's posts regarding sexual mores post-apostacy provided interesting insights but it would be interesting to look at what happens when atheism becomes the official state ideology.

    I've spent a lot of time in the ex-USSR and have come to some interesting conclusions.

    1. The USSR was a sexually conservative place as evident by their cultural products. Soviet movies overwhelmingly avoided sexual topics, language, etc..and censored western movie that didnt.

    2. Homosexuality and any alternative lifestyle was suppressed and considered deviant

    3. Marriage and the family unit, both conceptually and practically, were considered central and no alternative models were ever envisaged (as evidenced by their cultural products/state propaganda).

    Clearly, by today's standards, the USSR would be qualified as a very conservative country.

    At the same time, the USSR was clearly a progressive society with regard to women's rights for instance.

    Any thoughts?


    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #1 - April 22, 2009, 04:24 PM

    Atheism =Lack of belief in god\s

    Communism=An ideology which also includes & propagates lack of belief in god\s, but has various political\legal\social\economic components.

    People can be atheist\agnostic & capitalists eg two of the richest people on earth Bill Gates is agnostic & Warren Buffet atheist.

    Why do you couch your question in the language of atheism & give illustrations from a Communist nation?






    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #2 - April 22, 2009, 04:31 PM

    I think it is perfectly possible for an individual and/or culture to suffer from sexual repression without being religious. In the case of the USSR, the Church was just replaced with the State. The ideology they enforced was dogmatic, almost like a religion. In the case of Islam, the religion is very puritanical, so obviously an apostate from Islam would feel liberated, sexually or otherwise.

    If you don't mind me asking, AW... are you an agnostic/atheist?

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #3 - April 22, 2009, 04:33 PM

    Atheism =Lack of belief in god\s

    Communism=An ideology which also includes & propagates lack of belief in god\s, but has various political\legal\social\economic components.

    People can be atheist\agnostic & capitalists eg two of the richest people on earth Bill Gates is agnostic & Warren Buffet atheist.

    Why do you couch your question in the language of atheism & give illustrations from a Communist nation?



    Because atheism was the official ideology of the soviet union, the only place (maybe to eastern bloc countries) where we can get an idea of what the absence of religion creates.

    In other words, tehre was a formal program of atheist education in the school system.

    I dont understand your point about Gates or Buffet

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #4 - April 22, 2009, 04:37 PM

    No, Rashna's right, you've chosen a bad example.

    Quote
    Because atheism was the official ideology of the soviet union


    No, it wasn't.  Communism was the official ideology.

    Quote
    where we can get an idea of what the absence of religion creates.


    We can't because they did have a religion - Communism, which is just as much a dogma as Islam, Christianity, etc.


    Quote
    I dont understand your point about Gates or Buffet


    Gates and Buffet are atheists - what ideology would you say they represent?  Do you think they have anything at all in common with Karl Marx?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #5 - April 22, 2009, 04:38 PM

    I think it is perfectly possible for an individual and/or culture to suffer from sexual repression without being religious. In the case of the USSR, the Church was just replaced with the State. The ideology they enforced was dogmatic, almost like a religion. In the case of Islam, the religion is very puritanical, so obviously an apostate from Islam would feel liberated, sexually or otherwise.


    But why would the atheist state replacing the church be sexually conservative? Was this because the ideologues came to the conclusion that sexual energy led to instability?

    Keep in mind that this continued well into the late 1980s, in fact soviet movies from the late 90s are not very different from those of the 1950s.

    Again, there was nothing in Marxist dogma about sexual mores.  

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #6 - April 22, 2009, 04:42 PM

    No, Rashna's right, you've chosen a bad example.

    Quote
    Because atheism was the official ideology of the soviet union


    No, it wasn't.  Communism was the official ideology.



    Atheism was taught in schools (separate from Marxist-leninist dogma).

    The overwhelming majority of people in the USSR were atheists.

    I think its the best example of state-implemented atheism in the world and the best example of an atheist society in history.

    Unless you got a better one.


    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #7 - April 22, 2009, 04:45 PM

    Because atheism was the official ideology of the soviet union, the only place (maybe to eastern bloc countries) where we can get an idea of what the absence of religion creates.

    In other words, tehre was a formal program of atheist education in the school system.

    I dont understand your point about Gates or Buffet


    Atheism was not the formal ideology of the Soviet Union, Communism was.

    Atheism cannot be the formal ideology of anything-atheism simply means lack of belief in god\s.

    If atheism is a formal ideology\religion then is baldness a hair color? Is not collecting stamps a hobby?

    A part of the Communist ideology was enforced atheism, there were various other components.

    Atheism by itself has no ideology apart from non belief in a deity\deities, an atheist can be sexist, racist, egalitarian, capitalist(hence my example about billionaire non believers)animal lover\animal hater, nudist\preferring modesty-he\she can pretty much believe anything apart from the disbelief in God.

    Islam is a religion, a formal ideology, it includes strict monotheism, but also other rules & regulations like abstaining from pork, despising idolaters, jizya etc. However, deism includes belief in god\s, but no rules apart from that, a deist can belief whatever he\she chooses-they don't have a rule book of deism.

    Same for other religious or political ideologies-but atheism is simply disbelief.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #8 - April 22, 2009, 04:47 PM

    Atheism =Lack of belief in god\s

    Communism=An ideology which also includes & propagates lack of belief in god\s, but has various political\legal\social\economic components.

    People can be atheist\agnostic & capitalists eg two of the richest people on earth Bill Gates is agnostic & Warren Buffet atheist.

    Why do you couch your question in the language of atheism & give illustrations from a Communist nation?



    Because atheism was the official ideology of the soviet union, the only place (maybe to eastern bloc countries) where we can get an idea of what the absence of religion creates.


    No, a particular style of communism was the official ideology of the Soviet Union.  You can just as easily look at Sweden to see what the absence of religion in daily life creates in a society.

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #9 - April 22, 2009, 04:51 PM

    No, Rashna's right, you've chosen a bad example.

    Quote
    Because atheism was the official ideology of the soviet union


    No, it wasn't.  Communism was the official ideology.

    Quote
    where we can get an idea of what the absence of religion creates.


    We can't because they did have a religion - Communism, which is just as much a dogma as Islam, Christianity, etc.



    Communism is not a religion and does not include any precepts about sexual behavior or any similar preoccupations (like Islam, Christianity). It is primarly a way to govern, a political system based on economic equality and the abolishment of exploitation.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #10 - April 22, 2009, 04:54 PM

    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
    Was this because the ideologues came to the conclusion that sexual energy led to instability?

    Why not? Sexually satisfied people are more difficult to manipulate. You've read the novel "1984" by George Orwell, haven't you?

    Rejecting a religion or overthrowing religious institutions doesn't ensure the birth of a culture of freedom, especially if pseudo-religions like chauvinistic patriotism, a state ideology, or a personality cult have been installed instead. The sexual freedoms that are taken for granted in the West have more to do with Liberal philosophy. In the USSR, this was absent.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #11 - April 22, 2009, 04:59 PM

    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
    Was this because the ideologues came to the conclusion that sexual energy led to instability?

    Why not? Sexually satisfied people are more difficult to manipulate. You've read the novel "1984" by George Orwell, haven't you?



    I read it but I wouldnt call what was going on in the Soviet Union sexual repression. People could have sex outside marriage etc..

    But there was definitely a certain idea of decency which permeated popular culture throughout the Soviet period.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #12 - April 22, 2009, 05:01 PM

    I think it is perfectly possible for an individual and/or culture to suffer from sexual repression without being religious. In the case of the USSR, the Church was just replaced with the State. The ideology they enforced was dogmatic, almost like a religion. In the case of Islam, the religion is very puritanical, so obviously an apostate from Islam would feel liberated, sexually or otherwise.


    But why would the atheist state replacing the church be sexually conservative? Was this because the ideologues came to the conclusion that sexual energy led to instability?

    Keep in mind that this continued well into the late 1980s, in fact soviet movies from the late 90s are not very different from those of the 1950s.

    Again, there was nothing in Marxist dogma about sexual mores.  


    How many types of socialism, Marxism, and communism do you think came out of Marx's work?  One?

    The Soviets officially took a stance against liberal sexual practises because people's hearts, minds, bodies, and souls were supposed to be dedicated to the leader, the people, the ideology, the same as it was during Mao's time in China, for example, or North Korea today.  It has nothing to do with morality, but with how your body can be used to serve the regime and the political ideology. The Communist regime of Romania under Ceauşescu was notoriously anti-abortion.  Abortion was illegal, birth control was not allowed, and divorce was almost impossible to obtain.  Women (and girls) were subjected to monthly mandatory gynae exams, and tax penalties were levied on people who remained childless after the age of 25.  Not because he was pro-life and believed it was immoral to kill little babies because god made them, but because he believed that the Romanian woman's body best served Romania and the ideology of Communism by pushing out as many children (ie, future workers of the proletariat) as possible.  

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #13 - April 22, 2009, 05:09 PM

    I read it but I wouldnt call what was going on in the Soviet Union sexual repression. People could have sex outside marriage etc..

    What I know of the Soviet Union prompts me to think otherwise. Can you back up this statement with some written material? I'm sure it would be an interesting read.

    Atheism is just that, a rejection of god/s. The sexual freedoms that are taken for granted in the West derive from Liberal thinking.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #14 - April 22, 2009, 05:11 PM

    Communism is bullshit.

    However I think atheism is a perfectly natural and reasonable position to take.

    If there is a God, it would be unreasonable for him to punish those who come to to the conclusion there is no God since the evidence is - at the very best - inconclusive.

    This is one of the reasons I reject Islam (and all religions that consider atheism a sin).

    Smiley
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #15 - April 22, 2009, 06:22 PM

    No, Rashna's right, you've chosen a bad example.

    Quote
    Because atheism was the official ideology of the soviet union


    No, it wasn't.  Communism was the official ideology.



    Atheism was taught in schools (separate from Marxist-leninist dogma).

    The overwhelming majority of people in the USSR were atheists.

    I think its the best example of state-implemented atheism in the world and the best example of an atheist society in history.

    Unless you got a better one.

    As has been pointed out already, Sweden is another example (for all practical purposes). You've probably noticed that Sweden is slightly different to the old USSR.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #16 - April 22, 2009, 08:48 PM

    No, Rashna's right, you've chosen a bad example.

    Quote
    Because atheism was the official ideology of the soviet union


    No, it wasn't.  Communism was the official ideology.



    Atheism was taught in schools (separate from Marxist-leninist dogma).

    The overwhelming majority of people in the USSR were atheists.

    I think its the best example of state-implemented atheism in the world and the best example of an atheist society in history.

    Unless you got a better one.

    As has been pointed out already, Sweden is another example (for all practical purposes). You've probably noticed that Sweden is slightly different to the old USSR.


    Sweden is a good example even if most swedes are nominally christian and atheism is/was not taught in schools.

    Sweden may be a good example of a post-religious society but Im not sure its a good example of an atheist society. There was, after all, an total indoctrination system ensuring that young Soviet citizens would grow up in a completely areligious environment.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #17 - April 22, 2009, 08:51 PM

    You don't believe in Islam any more do you AW?
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #18 - April 22, 2009, 09:06 PM

    Quote
    Atheism was taught in schools (separate from Marxist-leninist dogma).


    Ha ha that must have been a short lesson.   Cheesy  Atheism consists of - I don't believe in God.  That's it.  End of lesson.

    The Soviet Union was communist with its sexual morals influenced by the morals of the pre-Communist societies in which it took root, most of which were Catholic or Orthodox.  A one party state is not a good example of a society without religion because invariable The Party becomes a religion.

    Sweden or Denmark would be better examples.


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #19 - April 22, 2009, 09:09 PM

    You don't believe in Islam any more do you AW?


    You're the second person to ask me that on this thread alone.

    I think Ill just stick to my old job, people clearly aren't confortable if I act out of character.

    BCM is back, Hassan!  

    Thats a big NO, in case you were wondering.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #20 - April 22, 2009, 09:12 PM

    Quote
    Atheism was taught in schools (separate from Marxist-leninist dogma).


    Ha ha that must have been a short lesson.   Cheesy  Atheism consists of - I don't believe in God.  That's it.  End of lesson.



    Damn right, it went all the way up the university.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #21 - April 22, 2009, 10:55 PM

    You don't believe in Islam any more do you AW?


    You're the second person to ask me that on this thread alone.

    I think Ill just stick to my old job, people clearly aren't confortable if I act out of character.

    BCM is back, Hassan! 

    Thats a big NO, in case you were wondering.


    So you don't believe in Islam anymore? 

    (I'm so tempted to say Welcome to humanity  Tongue, only I'm afraid someone will think I mean it).

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #22 - April 23, 2009, 01:59 AM

    I think Ill just stick to my old job, people clearly aren't comfortable if I act out of character.


    BCM is back


    I never read BCM much on FFI so I don't know how different that character is to AW, but why not just be yourself?

    Thats a big NO, in case you were wondering.


    OK.
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #23 - April 23, 2009, 02:30 PM

    I think Ill just stick to my old job, people clearly aren't comfortable if I act out of character.


    BCM is back


    I never read BCM much on FFI so I don't know how different that character is to AW, but why not just be yourself?

    Thats a big NO, in case you were wondering.


    OK.


    BCM and AW are exactly the same and both names are ironic.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Light discussion on atheism
     Reply #24 - April 23, 2009, 06:41 PM

    Really? I always thought they were meant to be taken literally.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »