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Theme Changer

 Topic: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam

 (Read 8122 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     OP - May 01, 2009, 12:34 PM

    Whale might chain me to the radiator with only cold baked beans to eat if I can't con convince more apostates to add their testimony to our new Wiki Islam page! If anyone needs any help or just wants me to add the whole thing, throw a PM my way (not too hard plox) and I'll rustle up a shiny testimony page for you!

    How to add your testimony




    *Please note: Whale would probably not actually do this to little old me, but I didn't wanna get done for spamming so I have to add ye olde backstory Cheesy
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #1 - May 01, 2009, 12:52 PM

    Whale might chain me to the radiator with only cold baked beans to eat if I can't con convince more apostates to add their testimony to our new Wiki Islam page! If anyone needs any help or just wants me to add the whole thing, throw a PM my way (not too hard plox) and I'll rustle up a shiny testimony page for you!

    How to add your testimony




    *Please note: Whale would probably not actually do this to little old me, but I didn't wanna get done for spamming so I have to add ye olde backstory Cheesy



    Hi Sani Smiley

    I don't have a problem having my story made public as you know, but I don't know enough about Wikiislam.

    I will have a look through myself when I get some time, but do you think you can tell us a bit about it - how it started - who is behind it - what are the aims etc...

    I saw it being talked about on FFI and so I have always thought of it as a sort of pet FFI project - is that true/not true?

    As you probably know I'm not keen on FFI or their approach and so if it shares the same aims/people behind it - then I'd rather not post anything to it.

  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #2 - May 01, 2009, 01:07 PM

    Well hello stranger!

    Quote
    I will have a look through myself when I get some time, but do you think you can tell us a bit about it - how it started - who is behind it - what are the aims etc...

    I saw it being talked about on FFI and so I have always thought of it as a sort of pet FFI project - is that true/not true?

    It is true that Wiki Islam originally started on the FFI forum - as a way to create reference articles to excellent posts (that tend to get lost under the sheer volume of postings), but Wiki Islam split off from FFI quite awhile ago. It has nothing to do with Ali Sina anymore - it's run by the user Whale from FFI and I hassle him on occasion lol.

    Now you may not agree with this part, but WI's main goal is to help Muslims leave Islam. From the FAQ:

    "The purpose of WikiIslam is to help Muslims leave Islam. WikiIslam can help Muslims leave Islam either by showing Muslim visitors a side of Islam that they may have never seen before, or by being used as a reference by non-Muslims who are trying to help Muslims leave Islam. "

    So it's not like we say "Islam is all bad!" but we mainly focus on articles that:

    a) reveal the revelational circumstances of certain verses/requirements (ie. 4:3, 4:129 & The Hijab)

    b) Examine specific verses in the Quran (ie. 65:4 )

    c) Debunk apologetics (ie. Zakir Naik & Women are deficient in Intelligence)

    d) Debunk Quran prophecies, Miracles etc..

    e)Quotations from the texts by topic

    f)A large selection of multimedia & historical information

    etc..

    So to my view (my opinion) it's not like we're saying "leave Islam NOW!" but more of "are you aware of these things? If so, how do they sit with you?"

    Quote
    As you probably know I'm not keen on FFI or their approach and so if it shares the same aims/people behind it - then I'd rather not post anything to it.

    No problems Hassan you don't have to if you don't want to. I believe I have made clear before that I, like you, do not support Faith Freedom (and many of its hateful posters). Actually I left Wiki Islam for ~1 year because, like you, I thought FFI was behind it. I came back when I realised it wasn't.

    But yeah thanks for taking the time to reply here - if you would like to add your testimony then great! If not, that's cool too! I'll have to resign myself to listening to your cool accent on your YT channel Cheesy
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #3 - May 01, 2009, 01:29 PM

    Thanks, Sani - well if you are involved with it then it has definitely gone up in my estimation. I will try and find time to have a browse through and give it some thought.

    Thanks again for the info Smiley
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #4 - May 01, 2009, 01:32 PM

    If Wiki-Islam is not part of FFI really then why have the shameful admissions sections, is that not just demonizing Muslims, I always objected to that section, and I even requested some of my comments to be removed but no one obliged.

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Shameful_admissions
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #5 - May 01, 2009, 01:36 PM

    Thanks Hassan! No problem hippie (I call everyone that!)


    If Wiki-Islam is not part of FFI really then why have the shameful admissions sections, is that not just demonizing Muslims, I always objected to that section, and I even requested some of my comments to be removed but no one obliged.

    Did you contact Whale and talk to him about it Tut?

    Secondly, that page has Shameful admissions from other sites as well so its not only for FFI, but since it DID start there, the majority of the initial editors were from FFI (although many have since dropped off) and newbies have come onboard.

    That page does not make mass generalizations - it attributes a specific comment to a specific Muslim poster. It does not say (for example) "All Muslims endorse suicide bombing" so your claim of demonization is unjust. Personally I think that page serves the purpose to highlight to Muslims that not all Muslims interpret Islam the same way they do (they may be aware of it to a certain extent of course).
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #6 - May 01, 2009, 01:42 PM

    Thanks Hassan! No problem hippie (I call everyone that!)


    If Wiki-Islam is not part of FFI really then why have the shameful admissions sections, is that not just demonizing Muslims, I always objected to that section, and I even requested some of my comments to be removed but no one obliged.

    Did you contact Whale and talk to him about it Tut?

    Secondly, that page has Shameful admissions from other sites as well so its not only for FFI, but since it DID start there, the majority of the initial editors were from FFI (although many have since dropped off) and newbies have come onboard.

    That page does not make mass generalizations - it attributes a specific comment to a specific Muslim poster. It does not say (for example) "All Muslims endorse suicide bombing" so your claim of demonization is unjust. Personally I think that page serves the purpose to highlight to Muslims that not all Muslims interpret Islam the same way they do (they may be aware of it to a certain extent of course).


    I don't know how to contact whale, the thing is some of those things I did not even mean them, in fact I was drunk and just trying to wind some folks up. I would like it if my comments were removed.

    I do like the wiki in other regards, I even used it in some of my youtube videos (I've deleted my account after getting influx of death threats) so yeah I like other sections of it. 
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #7 - May 01, 2009, 01:44 PM


    I don't know how to contact whale

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/User_talk:Whale or you can email him at wikiislam (at) yahoo.com

    the thing is some of those things I did not even mean them, in fact I was drunk and just trying to wind some folks up. I would like it if my comments were removed.

    Ah! Well if you just went and removed them from the page, Whale would just revert it. Best to contact him about it first. He's around a lot so you wont have to wait long for a reply.

    I do like the wiki in other regards, I even used it in some of my youtube videos (I've deleted my account after getting influx of death threats) so yeah I like other sections of it. 

    Death threats!?!??! eeep what did you say?!
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #8 - May 01, 2009, 01:49 PM


    I don't know how to contact whale

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/User_talk:Whale or you can email him at wikiislam (at) yahoo.com

    the thing is some of those things I did not even mean them, in fact I was drunk and just trying to wind some folks up. I would like it if my comments were removed.

    Ah! Well if you just went and removed them from the page, Whale would just revert it. Best to contact him about it first. He's around a lot so you wont have to wait long for a reply.

    I do like the wiki in other regards, I even used it in some of my youtube videos (I've deleted my account after getting influx of death threats) so yeah I like other sections of it. 

    Death threats!?!??! eeep what did you say?!


    I made videos mocking Islam, I did paltalk debates mocking Islam, and I left angry comments on Muslims' youtube accounts. But then someone on paltalk said something he mentioned the city I was from maybe recognized my voice or something. So kind of tripped out thinking what if someone finds out who I am IRL.
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #9 - May 01, 2009, 01:51 PM

    I made videos mocking Islam, I did paltalk debates mocking Islam, and I left angry comments on Muslims' youtube accounts. But then someone on paltalk said something he mentioned the city I was from maybe recognized my voice or something. So kind of tripped out thinking what if someone finds out who I am IRL.


    Tut, take care of yourself! I have not used Paltalk, but I assume it would not be too difficult for someone to find out your IP and then it would be easy to do a simple geolocate on it. Although I applaud your efforts! GJ
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #10 - May 01, 2009, 02:12 PM

    I remember I did talk to Whale, see the talk section of that article, but he never added a note or removed the content despite saying he would, I also have my testimonial of leaving Islam, but I will only put it up if those comment of mine are removed, I just don't want them on there. 
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #11 - May 01, 2009, 02:15 PM

    I remember I did talk to Whale, see the talk section of that article, but he never added a note or removed the content despite saying he would, I also have my testimonial of leaving Islam, but I will only put it up if those comment of mine are removed, I just don't want them on there. 

    He should reply to you when he comes online next. If he doesn't I'll chase it up (although I do not think this will be neccessary) he probably just forgot - he has a lot of stuff to do. Never fear Sani is here!! (hehe I always wanted to say that)
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #12 - May 01, 2009, 02:22 PM

    Thanks, and I remember MFN spoke very highly of you.  Smiley
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #13 - May 01, 2009, 08:36 PM

    It's an interesting and necessary resource.  I don't know about adding my story though.

    One thing, not everyone on the list was even a Muslim. Why is that? There is, for example, a testimony by someone named Jen  - a letter to Ali Sina - and it is clear from the letter that she was never Muslim at all. She just dated one.  So why is her story there?  Is it a lack of people and time to edit the list and make sure that everything is as it should be, or was the list take from another site (Apostates of Islam) and not edited or reviewed?

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #14 - May 02, 2009, 01:47 AM

    Hmmm, I'm not sure about whether we should want to convert Muslims away from Islam.

    On one hand you could argue that we should because just as we believe murder is wrong and would want to convince a murderer to stop murdering people, so we should want to convince a Muslim to stop believing in Islam because we believe Islam is wrong.

    On the other hand, isn't our desire for them to leave Islam going to get in the way of keeping an open mind? I think I prefer a "let's talk about this together and work out who is right" rather than "I've decided I'm right so you should join me" approach.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #15 - May 02, 2009, 03:34 AM

    Hmmm, I'm not sure about whether we should want to convert Muslims away from Islam.

    On one hand you could argue that we should because just as we believe murder is wrong and would want to convince a murderer to stop murdering people, so we should want to convince a Muslim to stop believing in Islam because we believe Islam is wrong.

    On the other hand, isn't our desire for them to leave Islam going to get in the way of keeping an open mind? I think I prefer a "let's talk about this together and work out who is right" rather than "I've decided I'm right so you should join me" approach.


    LOL but Islam isn't right... so what's the point of discussing it?  My main point of dialogue with Muslims would be 'Can you leave me in peace and respect and not vilify me? Oh and also not talk about how I should be killed and then when you're called on it say ' I meant in theory and also that was a private conversation boo hoo!' ' far away hug

    But I think there is a difference between, oh say, going out and going up to unsuspecting people or targeting them and snowing them with 'information' and all that and putting together a resource that they themselves have to choose to come to and choose to read - in other words, the choice, the power is with them all the way.  It's there for the reading.  Not like dawahgandists or Christian witnessers for that matter.

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #16 - May 02, 2009, 04:08 AM

    But I think there is a difference between, oh say, going out and going up to unsuspecting people or targeting them and snowing them with 'information' and all that and putting together a resource that they themselves have to choose to come to and choose to read - in other words, the choice, the power is with them all the way.  It's there for the reading.  Not like dawahgandists or Christian witnessers for that matter.

    The thing is, I'm not too keen on getting involved with a project that seeks to paint Islam as 100% evil. Obviously, every religion has both good and bad things in it, and it is completely false to claim that Islam has nothing good in it or nothing redeeming about it.

    One might argue that on balance Islam (and probably most organized religions taken in their totality) have more bad things than good things, however I think it is arrogance to pretend -- as we liberals and progressives often do -- that history began with us. Religion, like it or not, has shaped humanity, and as imperfect as it may be, it gave humanity a starting foundation in morality. I see religions as immature attempts by humanity to cultivate ethical and moral lives. Sure, we are outgrowing religions now, but, having said that, the whole "religion-is-the-root-of-all-evil" agenda doesn't fly too well with me.

    I think it is entirely possibly to set up a website that is critical of Islam but also sympathetic toward Muslims and that is capable of recognizing some of Islamic civilization's undoubtedly great achievements. The ideal such website should also have some understanding of why people turn to religion in the first place -- for a sense of moral structure, for a sense of community, out of a fear of loneliness or emotional isolation, a need to have meaning in their lives, etc. Ideally such a site might also include actual dialogues with Muslim scholars, if possible. Hassan's videos for instance struck me as having this sort of conciliatory flavor (which is what lured me to COEM in the first place).

    What bothers me chiefly about Islam are the messianic political/militant dimensions of the religion which are difficult to do away with without criticizing Muhammad himself to some degree, and secondly its sexism and social conservatism. It is really a religion for social conservatives, and it is not surprising for me to note that most people who convert to Islam are social conservatives who abhor liberal values, feminism, etc. Those are the two dimensions of Islam that I am interested in critiquing on a personal level.

    I just want to see Islam become politically irrelevant and to surrender its political and imperial ambitions -- I don't care about deconverting Muslims. Let them have their faith. It's only when their faith violates my boundaries that I react -- for instance, the discrimination I've faced my whole life as a woman, or having to deal with the horribly regressive ideas most Muslims have about LGBT people, punishments for apostasy, intolerance of criticism or "blasphemy", etc. and so on. Depoliticize and privatize the religion. That's all I ask.
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #17 - May 02, 2009, 05:07 AM

    Religion, like it or not, has shaped humanity, and as imperfect as it may be, it gave humanity a starting foundation in morality.

    I disagree. I'd say it was the other way around: humanity gave religion a starting point. Where else did it come from?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #18 - May 02, 2009, 05:44 AM

    Religion, like it or not, has shaped humanity, and as imperfect as it may be, it gave humanity a starting foundation in morality.

    I disagree. I'd say it was the other way around: humanity gave religion a starting point. Where else did it come from?

    My statement and your statement aren't mutually exclusive. Regardless of whether religion is man-made or not, humanity derived morals from it. Christianity has shaped modern Europe in many, many ways, for instance, and enabled the rise of the kind of secular ethics that you have there now. Even secularist philosophers admit this.

    I'm only saying one has to acknowledge history. Religion played its role in the development of humanity. It's obsolete now, but its role in history was not trivial by any means.
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #19 - May 02, 2009, 07:27 AM

    Religion, like it or not, has shaped humanity, and as imperfect as it may be, it gave humanity a starting foundation in morality.

    I disagree. I'd say it was the other way around: humanity gave religion a starting point. Where else did it come from?

    My statement and your statement aren't mutually exclusive. Regardless of whether religion is man-made or not, humanity derived morals from it. Christianity has shaped modern Europe in many, many ways, for instance, and enabled the rise of the kind of secular ethics that you have there now. Even secularist philosophers admit this.

    I'm only saying one has to acknowledge history. Religion played its role in the development of humanity. It's obsolete now, but its role in history was not trivial by any means.

    But you dont know if it has had a postive effect, who knows where we would be today if religion had never ever existed.

    I suspect we would be further down the 'evolutionary cultural' line.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #20 - May 02, 2009, 07:48 AM

    But you dont know if it has had a postive effect, who knows where we would be today if religion had never ever existed.

    I suspect we would be further down the 'evolutionary cultural' line.

    All religions have had their "golden ages" so to speak and inspired marvelous art, literature, poetry and music. Surely this cannot be denied even as one critiques traditional religion. I believe that religion and traditional morality (even though I am not an adherent of either) have provided a stabilizing force in the past.
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #21 - May 02, 2009, 08:12 AM

    Regardless of whether religion is man-made or not, humanity derived morals from it.

    Uh?

    IF: religion is man-made
    THEN: the moral teachings found in religion are man-made

    So how could humanity derive morals from morals that derived from humanity?

    Unless you use the word "deriving" in a very loose and strange way.
    Then you could say things like: the author of a book "derives" ideas from the book he has just finished writing.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #22 - May 02, 2009, 08:21 AM

    It's an interesting and necessary resource.  I don't know about adding my story though.

    One thing, not everyone on the list was even a Muslim. Why is that? There is, for example, a testimony by someone named Jen  - a letter to Ali Sina - and it is clear from the letter that she was never Muslim at all. She just dated one.  So why is her story there?  Is it a lack of people and time to edit the list and make sure that everything is as it should be, or was the list take from another site (Apostates of Islam) and not edited or reviewed?

    Hi fading,

    thank you for your criticism, due to lack of time we have had to hire people to do data entry here and they do not check all the testimonies from the lists they were given. I will make sure to go through the list and remove the 'testimonies' from those who have never been Muslim. The testimonies page is in it's first draft (having been just finished in th past few days) so I appreciate you taking the time to point out this error! I will rectify it in the next couple of days.

  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #23 - May 02, 2009, 08:25 AM

    Regardless of whether religion is man-made or not, humanity derived morals from it.

    Uh?

    IF: religion is man-made
    THEN: the moral teachings found in religion are man-made

    So how could humanity derive morals from morals that derived from humanity?

    Unless you use the word "deriving" in a very loose and strange way.
    Then you could say things like: the author of a book "derives" ideas from the book he has just finished writing.

    That is exactly the point I was trying to make. It's a circular argument.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #24 - May 02, 2009, 08:26 AM

    The thing is, I'm not too keen on getting involved with a project that seeks to paint Islam as 100% evil. Obviously, every religion has both good and bad things in it, and it is completely false to claim that Islam has nothing good in it or nothing redeeming about it.

    Hi ned,
    As stated previously, Wiki Islam's job is only to point out to Muslims, the texts and issues that they may not be aware of regarding Islam. Due to the high number of dawaganda sites on the Internet, and the fact that they are Muslims, they are already aware of the good things in Islam, so WI does not need to present this information.

  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #25 - May 02, 2009, 08:32 AM

    I am not sure that the fact that religion is a form of social control is a positive thing.  Perhaps it was necessary or seen as necessary once upon a time, but it seems to me that people will do what they want to do, regardless of what the religion tells them to. And that they always have done so.  Too much protesting is made about the 'good' that has come from religion.  Really, we all know about music & art done under the patronage of the church.  And 'god' knows we have to hear it often enough from people who are desperate to keep people under the thumb of the church or the mosque or the shul. 

    One thing that I like about Wiki Islam vs. some of the other sites is that they have a place for Muslims to contribute and debate.  I wonder if the same consideration would be extended to 'apostates' and atheists at a Muslim sponsored wiki or site.   whistling2

    But on a purely emotional level, I feel like well, really who the fuck cares if a site is friendly to them or not?  I'm not talking about hateful, racist stuff ala that Robert Spencer site.  I don't see that on Wiki Islam, from the little I've explored of that site so far. The fact of the matter is, and we all know it, that on  most of the Islamic forums or blogs, we would all get threats, dawahganda, and / or be banned from the site.  A lot of us have been already.   So really, I am not overly worried about giving Muslims a 'space' to talk in the whole thing, and especially especially in the ex-Muslim spaces.  Especially because for most people, just even questioning Islam or Mo-man is 'hateful' and 'inflammatory.

    Another thought - if ex-Muslims don't contribute to projects like this, then we really wouldn't have much room to complain when the information on them isn't accurate.  I'm not saying it has to be that particular one.  I dunno, it seems like when it comes to Islam, people assume to speak with an authority they would not assume if the topic was, say, Judaism or microbiology.  Like making sweeping statements about 'who converts to Islam' or what African American Muslim culture is like, which I've seen on this forum... from people who were neither converts or who are not or were not African American Muslims.  Just a thought.   bunny

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #26 - May 02, 2009, 08:33 AM

    All religions have had their "golden ages" so to speak and inspired marvelous art, literature, poetry and music. Surely this cannot be denied even as one critiques traditional religion.

    Sure, but on the other hand you have no way of knowing what else would have been produced in an alternative history and it cannot be denied that traditional religion has also been responsible for the destruction of marvelous art and literature and that it has placed restrictions on the execution of new art and literature.



    Quote
    I believe that religion and traditional morality (even though I am not an adherent of either) have provided a stabilizing force in the past.

    Again, you have no way of knowing what could have ben achieved in another setting. Stabilising, yes, but at what cost? Why do you think the Enlightenment is known as the Enlightenment? It was precisely the breaking down of enforced "stability" that enabled progress.

    Furthermore if you are going to make blanket statements about "traditional religion" then you do have to include religions such as the Aztec religion (which did produce some nice art, etc) and others, and you also have to take account of societies that had no religion and seemed to get on fine without it.

    Bottom line: can you say that "traditional religion" has resulted in a net benefit compared to the possible alternatives?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #27 - May 02, 2009, 09:25 AM

    But I think there is a difference between, oh say, going out and going up to unsuspecting people or targeting them and snowing them with 'information' and all that and putting together a resource that they themselves have to choose to come to and choose to read - in other words, the choice, the power is with them all the way.  It's there for the reading.  Not like dawahgandists or Christian witnessers for that matter.

    The thing is, I'm not too keen on getting involved with a project that seeks to paint Islam as 100% evil. Obviously, every religion has both good and bad things in it, and it is completely false to claim that Islam has nothing good in it or nothing redeeming about it.

    One might argue that on balance Islam (and probably most organized religions taken in their totality) have more bad things than good things, however I think it is arrogance to pretend -- as we liberals and progressives often do -- that history began with us. Religion, like it or not, has shaped humanity, and as imperfect as it may be, it gave humanity a starting foundation in morality. I see religions as immature attempts by humanity to cultivate ethical and moral lives. Sure, we are outgrowing religions now, but, having said that, the whole "religion-is-the-root-of-all-evil" agenda doesn't fly too well with me.

    I think it is entirely possibly to set up a website that is critical of Islam but also sympathetic toward Muslims and that is capable of recognizing some of Islamic civilization's undoubtedly great achievements. The ideal such website should also have some understanding of why people turn to religion in the first place -- for a sense of moral structure, for a sense of community, out of a fear of loneliness or emotional isolation, a need to have meaning in their lives, etc. Ideally such a site might also include actual dialogues with Muslim scholars, if possible. Hassan's videos for instance struck me as having this sort of conciliatory flavor (which is what lured me to COEM in the first place).

    What bothers me chiefly about Islam are the messianic political/militant dimensions of the religion which are difficult to do away with without criticizing Muhammad himself to some degree, and secondly its sexism and social conservatism. It is really a religion for social conservatives, and it is not surprising for me to note that most people who convert to Islam are social conservatives who abhor liberal values, feminism, etc. Those are the two dimensions of Islam that I am interested in critiquing on a personal level.

    I just want to see Islam become politically irrelevant and to surrender its political and imperial ambitions -- I don't care about deconverting Muslims. Let them have their faith. It's only when their faith violates my boundaries that I react -- for instance, the discrimination I've faced my whole life as a woman, or having to deal with the horribly regressive ideas most Muslims have about LGBT people, punishments for apostasy, intolerance of criticism or "blasphemy", etc. and so on. Depoliticize and privatize the religion. That's all I ask.


    Ned, I share your thoughts and feelings on this matter.  Afro
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #28 - May 02, 2009, 09:31 AM

    I'm not too keen on getting involved with a project that seeks to paint Islam as 100% evil. Obviously, every religion has both good and bad things in it, and it is completely false to claim that Islam has nothing good in it or nothing redeeming about it.


    Regarding this point in particular. I have grown very weary of trying to make that point over and over again to some people and I feel very uncomfortable about sharing any sort of project or venture with anyone who thinks Islam is all bad.
  • Re: Add your Apostasty Testimony to Wiki Islam
     Reply #29 - May 02, 2009, 09:32 AM

    But you dont know if it has had a postive effect, who knows where we would be today if religion had never ever existed.

    I suspect we would be further down the 'evolutionary cultural' line.

    All religions have had their "golden ages" so to speak and inspired marvelous art, literature, poetry and music. Surely this cannot be denied even as one critiques traditional religion. I believe that religion and traditional morality (even though I am not an adherent of either) have provided a stabilizing force in the past.


    lolz i said the same thing a day earlier here but you said it in better word:
    "Art, culture, and aesthetics, and higher ultimate truth is all inspired by spiritualism/metaphysics. "

    No one cares what I say though, because I am belligerent and do drugs lol.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5192.msg132336#msg132336

     Afro

    Also, I think you might be interested in this thread:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5158.80

    Would love to hear your input on it! drop some knowledge.
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