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 Topic: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots

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  • Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     OP - May 07, 2009, 06:39 PM

    Quote
    It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots

    Muslims are using Europe's liberal democratic apparatus to roll back our hard-fought freedoms
    By Ayaan Hirsi Ali
    FIRST POSTED MAY 5, 2009

    In 2006, I had a debate with Tariq Ramadan, the author of Western Muslims and the future of Islam. In the hypothetical event of a war between Egypt and Switzerland, for which community would he be prepared to die, I asked him.

    Mr Ramadan has dual citizenship. He's an Egyptian by birth and a Swiss by naturalisation. His response was one of rage on different levels. Above all I think he was outraged that one should ask such a question. He refused to answer.

    Mr Ramadan, like many other Muslims, may have two or more citizenships. From all that he expresses both in person and on paper, it is clear that his loyalty, above all, is to Islam. I do not doubt that he would die for Islam, like most Muslims, and that's his prerogative. But what European countries have done is give citizenship to individuals who feel no obligation to share in their societies for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer and in the event of a catastrophe, sacrifice themselves.

    No debate is more explosive than the debate on the future of Islam in Europe

    In this way, they evade one of the chief criteria of citizenship. Political allegiance to the constitution of your country is the minimum requirement. It is this state of affairs that makes Christopher Caldwell's book Reflections on the Revolution in Europe: Immigration and the West (Allen Lane, ?17.99), which opens with the sentence, "Western Europe became a multi-ethnic society in a fit of absence of mind," a chilling read.

    This absence of mind, which Caldwell lays bare, is reflected in Europe's immigration policies and especially in its response to Islam. No debate today is more explosive, more sensitive, more confusing and more frightening than the debate on the future of Islam in Europe.

    In March this year, the French intellectual Pascal Bruckner and I spoke about Caldwell's book. Bruckner said, "Americans [like Caldwell] do not understand Europe. There are many Muslims who, in their daily lives, are more agnostic and in their practices even atheist, but are just Muslim in name."

    This seems to be reassuring. But would these agnostic and unpracticing Muslims, if push came to shove, die for Islam or for France? My guess is they would, most likely, die for Islam.

    Caldwell discusses this theme in an interesting light: he does not overlook the Europeans who feel that Islam is a danger to European values but asks, "How can you fight for something  you cannot define?" And this is Europe's problem - insecurity about who we are, what our various flags mean, why, with every turn, we spend less and less on the military.

    Europe has become a place for new religions, new creeds, multiculturalism, cosmopolitanism, transnationalism. Everything is thus relative. This is an uncertainty that the Muslim does not share. The Muslim ethic and tribal spirit are far more resilient and fierce in war than the protestant ethic and the spirit of capitalism.

    The numbers and insights that Caldwell has collected in his book are visible to many Europeans. During my life in Holland, and in my trips back, I have spoken to European intellectuals who see the revolution that Caldwell describes so well in his book. They may not call it a revolution, they may also not see it as complete, but they see the identity crisis in Europe.
    Muslims protest in London against the publishing in Danish newspapers of cartoons mocking the Prophet Mohammed in 2006

    ---Muslims protest against the publishing of cartoons of Mohammed---

    Take the debate on freedom of expression. In 1989 and afterwards, the provocations in the name of Islam were greeted with a confident, "No way! This is Europe, and you can say what you like, write what you like," and so on.

    Two decades later, Europeans are not so sure about the values of freedom of expression. Most members of the media engage in self-censorship. Textbooks in schools and universities have been adapted in such a way as not to offend Muslim sentiment. And legislation to punish 'blasphemy', if not passed, has been considered in most countries - or old laws that were never used are being revived.

    Today, in the name of Islam, synagogues are vandalised

    Take anti-Semitism in Europe. The sensitivity and guilt Europeans feel about the Holocaust is comparable to the sensitivity and guilt that Americans feel towards black Americans. A decade or two ago, it was unthinkable for Jews to be slandered openly and be targeted for no other reason than their Jewishness.

    Today, in the name of Islam, synagogues are vandalised. There are open denials of the Holocaust. There is an active network of Muslim organisations lobbying to curtail or even get rid of Israel. There are incidents of Jews being harassed, beaten, even killed. All this is met with grim silence and rationalisations that it's not really anti-Semitic but anti-Israel. Can you imagine anything like this happening today in America to black people and it being met with silence?

    Take the history of women's liberation in Europe. In the 1970s, women were burning their bras, abortion was legalised almost everywhere and rape in marriage was penalised. Today, more and more European elites, including some feminists, argue that  it might, perhaps, just be better to respect the culture and religion of a minority.

    Women's shelters have adapted their curriculum - instead of teaching the women who come to them how to become self-reliant, the shelters facilitate prayer rooms and employ mediators from the Islamic community. All this mediation serves only one purpose - that is, to return the woman to the circumstances of abuse she left.

    Here is a system, which was a tool to emancipate, that has been completely transformed to serve the Muslim purpose of obedience. If the wife obeys, then the husband no longer needs to beat her. The matter is settled.

    The same applies to gays. Ten years ago, it would have been unthinkable that anti-gay sentiment would pass without condemnation. In Holland, for instance, we pride ourselves on allowing gays to have the exact same rights as heterosexuals. Yet today, they are beaten on the streets of Amsterdam. To be on the safe side in certain neighbourhoods in Europe, it's advisable to conceal your identity if you are gay or lesbian.

    Muslims try to abolish freedom of expression using the vocabulary of freedom

    The terrifying paradox about these developments is that Muslim immigrants were admitted into European borders on the basis of universal rights and freedoms that a large number of them now trample on, while others perhaps watch passively, or seek to defend only the image of Islam.

    Even worse, those who lobby to abolish freedom of expression and to discriminate against Jews, women and gays do so while using the vocabulary of freedom and through the institutions of parliament and the courts that were designed to protect the rights of all.

    American observers like Caldwell, Bruce Bawer, Walter Laqeur and many others who go to Europe and write candidly about these things can return to America, where they can write on another topic, keep their jobs and their social networks.

    Europeans who do the same thing as Caldwell, often face a campaign of ostracisation from their own compatriots. They run the risk of losing their jobs or not being promoted or not getting invitations to the circles of which they are a part. The more stubborn, like Geert Wilders, get prosecuted, and access to a neighbouring country is even denied.

    In reality, if Europe falls, it's not because of Islam. It is because the Europeans of today - unlike their forbears in the Second World War - will not die to defend the values or the future of Europe. Even if they were asked to make the final sacrifice, many a post-modern lily-livered European would escape into an obscure mesh of conscientious objection. All that Islam has to do is walk into the vacuum.

    FIRST POSTED MAY 5, 2009



    I heart Ayaan.  dance

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #1 - May 07, 2009, 07:33 PM

    I absolutely love this woman. I support every single sentence Ayaah Hirsi Ali says in this article. Europe needs a revival of spirit against the onslaught of Islamic barbarism. I think the current predicament of the West is the kind of nihilistic crisis that Nietzsche foresaw.

    I like the idea of a multi-ethnic society. I am not averse to the idea of a multi-cultural society, either. Yet I don't like the idea of a nihilistic society willing to bow to foreign idols out of fear and self-loathing. An imperialistic and violent culture like Islam cannot coexist with pacifist, libertarian cultures.

    Islam is a crime against humanity. Man will never be free until the last sheikh is strangled with the entrails of the last imam.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #2 - May 07, 2009, 07:41 PM

    I watched that debate she had with Tariq Ramadan she was outsmarted by him, and she is just ranting.
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #3 - May 07, 2009, 07:48 PM

    I watched that debate she had with Tariq Ramadan she was outsmarted by him, and she is just ranting.

    Yes, Tariq Ramadan the famous apologist. Tariq Ramadan, who opposed the French law on secularism and conspicuous religious symbols in schools. Tariq Ramadan, who failed to condemn Islamic stonings.

    I absolutely changed my opinion of Ayaan Hirsi now. Really. I mean it.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #4 - May 07, 2009, 07:48 PM

    I see no wisdom in her words, she is out of touch with reality, her hearted of Islam is effecting her ability to reason soundly, polarization is the worst thing ever it becomes a breeding ground for militant/political Islam.
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #5 - May 07, 2009, 07:51 PM

    I watched that debate she had with Tariq Ramadan she was outsmarted by him, and she is just ranting.

    Yes, Tariq Ramadan the famous apologist. Tariq Ramadan, who opposed the French law on secularism and conspicuous religious symbols in schools. Tariq Ramadan, who failed to condemn Islamic stonings.

    I absolutely changed my opinion of Ayaan Hirsi now. Really. I mean it.


    You can be part of the problem or part of the solution unfortunately she is part of the problem. She is a trouble maker hence why the Danish government stopped giving her protection. 
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #6 - May 07, 2009, 07:56 PM

    Also she says things like "We, We as Muslim women" one minute she is an atheist feminist and next minute she is a Muslim woman. She can't even make her mind up.
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #7 - May 07, 2009, 07:58 PM

    I see no wisdom in her words, she is out of touch with reality, her hearted of Islam is effecting her ability to reason soundly, polarization is the worst thing ever it becomes a breeding ground for militant/political Islam.

    Yes, we are supposed to make concessions and sacrifice our personal freedoms so that cuddly, moderate Muslims will not be upset and become radical Islamists. I have heard this lie many times before. Islam is a tumour, it will grow when you fail to treat it, not the other way around.

    What breeds Islamists in Europe is the pan-European failure to confront Islam, not the lack thereof. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is bitter medicine, but medicine nevertheless. If the majority of Muslims (and self-hating Europeans) are so delusional that they cannot handle Ayaan's critique of Islam, it is their moral failure, not hers.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #8 - May 07, 2009, 08:00 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXR10XSFrVY&feature=related

    Tariq gives her a complete ass whooping.
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #9 - May 07, 2009, 08:03 PM

    "You are charming and handsome" is this a debate or is she flirting with Ramadan? She called herself a Muslim number of times.
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #10 - May 07, 2009, 08:34 PM

    It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots

    Muslims are using Europe's liberal democratic apparatus to roll back our hard-fought freedoms
    By Ayaan Hirsi Ali
    FIRST POSTED MAY 5, 2009


    I agree with a great deal of what she said, but what worries me is that some will take this as an excuse to crack down on all sort of dissension and force people to conform to their own narrow idea of what they think constitutes a 'loyal citizen'.

    The fact is that in a free society you will always have people who hold religious, political, or personal beliefs/ideals that they would be more loyal to than the Government or Country.

    England is my country - I love it - but there are often things I don't agree with. It is more important to me to do what I believe is right according to my conscience - not what my government tells me or what someone else tells me is the "British" way of doing things.

    Personally I would say 'fuck you' to anyone who tried to impose their idea of what being 'British' is on me. Of course I am a law abiding person - but if there is any law that I felt went against my conscience then I would support efforts to have it changed within the legal system and if I was forced to act against my conscience I would refuse - and screw anyone who thinks that the fact that I live here means I must obey something I find morally wrong.

    I am deeply concerned that some will use the very real threat that the negative aspects of religions like Islam (it is of course not the only one) pose to freedom and democracy, to push their own agenda that will probably end up being an even greater threat to freedom and democracy.
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #11 - May 07, 2009, 08:50 PM

    I do think her assertion of what a person would die for is a bit over the top. Like Zaephon said, she's bitter medicine. Personally there is no country no ideology and no religion or philosophy for which I would be willing to die, or kill. To protect my family, loved ones, and others, that's a different story, but no abstract concept is worthy of dying or killing for.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #12 - May 07, 2009, 09:00 PM

    Quote from: allat
    Personally there is no country no ideology and no religion or philosophy for which I would be willing to die, or kill.

    Well, I think the Alevites who were burned alive in the Sivas Massacre would not die willingly, either. Islamofascists don't really ask for your permission to kill you. This is just one example, but you get the idea.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivas_incidents

    There is no ideology I would die for, but I wouldn't mind risking death and facing death threats for criticising Islam, like Aziz Nesin and so many others did.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #13 - May 07, 2009, 09:02 PM

    Personally there is no country no ideology and no religion or philosophy for which I would be willing to die, or kill. To protect my family, loved ones, and others, that's a different story, but no abstract concept is worthy of dying or killing for.


    I feel the same - and I suspect a most people feel the same.

    In fact if there is anything that I really do cherish about my country is that I am free to live according to my conscience - unlike in many Muslim countries.

  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #14 - May 07, 2009, 09:16 PM

    That's the thing... Muslim and other religious nutters are willing to die for ideologies but they are not willing to LIVE for them. Democracy, secularism assumes that people have more reasons to live than to die. The reason Muslim fanaticism is so dangerous is precisely because they are more sure about what they are williing to die for, than what they are willing to live for.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #15 - May 07, 2009, 09:20 PM

    That's the thing... Muslim and other religious nutters are willing to die for ideologies but they are not willing to LIVE for them. Democracy, secularism assumes that people have more reasons to live than to die. The reason Muslim fanaticism is so dangerous is precisely because they are more sure about what they are williing to die for, than what they are willing to live for.


    True!

    I think we all agree that more must be done to protect the freedoms we take for granted and European Govts must stop appeasing Islamists and have more balls in standing up against the obnoxious elements of Islam in Europe.

    But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water!
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #16 - May 07, 2009, 09:30 PM

    No human has anything to live for really. Life is inconsequential we don't kill ourself due to the fear of the unknown. Interestingly it is through the unknown we get our creativity and spirituality, which is basis of art, music, poetry and higher abstract truth.     
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #17 - May 07, 2009, 09:42 PM

    No human has anything to live for really.

    How about those who are making a positive contribution to other peoples lives?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #18 - May 07, 2009, 10:05 PM

    That's the thing... Muslim and other religious nutters are willing to die for ideologies but they are not willing to LIVE for them. Democracy, secularism assumes that people have more reasons to live than to die. The reason Muslim fanaticism is so dangerous is precisely because they are more sure about what they are williing to die for, than what they are willing to live for.

    I am not sure whether other religious nutters are willing to die for ideologies, unless you mean this metaphorically. Christian fundies, for all their flaws, are usually fond of living. The only non-Islamic examples of contemporary death-worship are, ironically, self-immolating Buddhist monks. Any other examples?

    I would really like to live in a world where Islam no longer troubles humanity, except perhaps as an ancient memory. I would never put on my belt of dynamites and blow myself up for this vision, but if defending this vision means that there will be Muslims trying to kill me, I wouldn't mind.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #19 - May 08, 2009, 08:47 AM

    Here is the key section confirming there is no difference between Ayaan and the rest of the fascist anti-muslim movement.

    "In March this year, the French intellectual Pascal Bruckner and I spoke about Caldwell's book. Bruckner said, "Americans [like Caldwell] do not understand Europe. There are many Muslims who, in their daily lives, are more agnostic and in their practices even atheist, but are just Muslim in name."

    This seems to be reassuring. But would these agnostic and unpracticing Muslims, if push came to shove, die for Islam or for France? My guess is they would, most likely, die for Islam."

    This is where ALL muslims, no matter how advanced, progressive or even atheist are lumped in together as no better than extremists. All are suspect of dual loyalties which is nice way of saying traitor.

    This is where an atheist or agnostic arab or pakistani guy who happens to be born into a Muslim family will say "fuck you, you won't let me be anything but a duplicitous Muslim then so be it"

    Fuck Ayaan Hirsi Ali

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #20 - May 08, 2009, 09:59 AM

    Fuck Tariq Ramadan, disgusting apologist for Islam. Fuck all the would-be moderate Muslims who fail to condemn Islamic tyranny. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is still an awesome woman for standing against that intellectual terrorist. If there are so many advanced, progressive and "even atheist" Muslims, why do they fail to weed out the fundamentalists in Europe? A lack of enthusiasm, perhaps?

    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
    This is where ALL muslims, no matter how advanced, progressive or even atheist

    What is an atheist Muslim?  Roll Eyes

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #21 - May 08, 2009, 10:05 AM

    What is an atheist Muslim?  Roll Eyes

    An Atheist who self identifies as muslim. Tongue 'cultural-muslim'

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #22 - May 08, 2009, 10:25 AM

    Fuck Tariq Ramadan, disgusting apologist for Islam. Fuck all the would-be moderate Muslims who fail to condemn Islamic tyranny. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is still an awesome woman for standing against that intellectual terrorist. If there are so many advanced, progressive and "even atheist" Muslims, why do they fail to weed out the fundamentalists in Europe? A lack of enthusiasm, perhaps?

    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
    This is where ALL muslims, no matter how advanced, progressive or even atheist

    What is an atheist Muslim?  Roll Eyes


    She thinks Islam is a culture, and say for example, a Pakistani atheist/agnostic would follow the culture of Islam as he/she has nothing else to identify with. She is completely wrong, I am a Pakistani, my culture is Punjabi which is not the same as Islamic. In fact majority of Punjabis voted a democratic/secular party into power in Pakistan, so her assertion that, that they'll always support Islamic laws above secular laws is completely devoid of any sound reasoning.

    In fact Muslims fought Muslims when Muslims were in the British Indian army, Muslims were sent to crush rebellions. Pakistani Muslims in the Pakistani army are doing the same thing going out and killing the Taliban, how she thinks anyone of an Islamic background would side for Islam in a war is beyond me. Maybe, it would happen in the Arab world, but most of the Muslims live in Asia.

    In fact Muslims in the British army have gone and fought and died in places like Afghanistan.

    She's like the Jew who joins stormfront!
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #23 - May 08, 2009, 10:33 AM

    Fuck Tariq Ramadan, disgusting apologist for Islam. Fuck all the would-be moderate Muslims who fail to condemn Islamic tyranny. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is still an awesome woman for standing against that intellectual terrorist. If there are so many advanced, progressive and "even atheist" Muslims, why do they fail to weed out the fundamentalists in Europe? A lack of enthusiasm, perhaps?

    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
    This is where ALL muslims, no matter how advanced, progressive or even atheist

    What is an atheist Muslim?  Roll Eyes


    Someone who is an atheist but maintains a cultural affiliation to Islam.

    The writer Abdelwahab Meddeb would be an example

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #24 - May 08, 2009, 10:35 AM

    Fuck Tariq Ramadan, disgusting apologist for Islam. Fuck all the would-be moderate Muslims who fail to condemn Islamic tyranny. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is still an awesome woman for standing against that intellectual terrorist. If there are so many advanced, progressive and "even atheist" Muslims, why do they fail to weed out the fundamentalists in Europe? A lack of enthusiasm, perhaps?


    Or perhaps there are a number of dumbfuck bigots who choose to ignore the efforts of progressive or "even atheist" Muslims because, well, they're a bunch of dumbfuck bigots.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #25 - May 08, 2009, 10:40 AM

    Fuck Tariq Ramadan, disgusting apologist for Islam. Fuck all the would-be moderate Muslims who fail to condemn Islamic tyranny. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is still an awesome woman for standing against that intellectual terrorist. If there are so many advanced, progressive and "even atheist" Muslims, why do they fail to weed out the fundamentalists in Europe? A lack of enthusiasm, perhaps?

    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
    This is where ALL muslims, no matter how advanced, progressive or even atheist

    What is an atheist Muslim?  Roll Eyes


    She thinks Islam is a culture, and say for example, a Pakistani atheist/agnostic would follow the culture of Islam as he/she has nothing else to identify with. She is completely wrong, I am a Pakistani, my culture is Punjabi which is not the same as Islamic. In fact majority of Punjabis voted a democratic/secular party into power in Pakistan, so her assertion that, that they'll always support Islamic laws above secular laws is completely devoid of any sound reasoning.

    In fact Muslims fought Muslims when Muslims were in the British Indian army, Muslims were sent to crush rebellions. Pakistani Muslims in the Pakistani army are doing the same thing going out and killing the Taliban, how she thinks anyone of an Islamic background would side for Islam in a war is beyond me. Maybe, it would happen in the Arab world, but most of the Muslims live in Asia.

    In fact Muslims in the British army have gone and fought and died in places like Afghanistan.

    She's like the Jew who joins stormfront!


    There are Muslims fighting in the French army as we speak, there are Muslims who died for France in world war 1 and 2 (Morrocans, Tunisians and Senegalese were fucking volunteers for fuck's sake).

    People like her who generalize about an entire of people consciously choose to ignore this as it brings to light the gaping holes in their bigoted ideologies.

    Fuck Ayaan Hirsi Ali

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #26 - May 08, 2009, 10:43 AM

    Here is the key section confirming there is no difference between Ayaan and the rest of the fascist anti-muslim movement.

    "In March this year, the French intellectual Pascal Bruckner and I spoke about Caldwell's book. Bruckner said, "Americans [like Caldwell] do not understand Europe. There are many Muslims who, in their daily lives, are more agnostic and in their practices even atheist, but are just Muslim in name."

    This seems to be reassuring. But would these agnostic and unpracticing Muslims, if push came to shove, die for Islam or for France? My guess is they would, most likely, die for Islam."

    This is where ALL muslims, no matter how advanced, progressive or even atheist are lumped in together as no better than extremists. All are suspect of dual loyalties which is nice way of saying traitor.

    This is where an atheist or agnostic arab or pakistani guy who happens to be born into a Muslim family will say "fuck you, you won't let me be anything but a duplicitous Muslim then so be it"

    Fuck Ayaan Hirsi Ali


    But I agree with her position there.

    Most muslims I know blatantly vowed they would fight to the death to defend Islam if the west went to war against islam.  These are westernised muslims who wouldn't even remember the fatiha under pressure, but their loyalty is not to the western ideals that allow them to have the freedom they gloriously cherish. It is to Islam.

    Almost all muslims know deep down that there has to be an ultimate choice of loyalty down the road.

    The so called athiest muslim is a farce, if you lable yourself as an atheist muslim you have shouted your remaining loyalty loudly, you identify with the islamic culture, and in that connection make your choice.

    @Hassan, can you honestly say to me that in any conversation with all the muslims you have known in your life, on this topic of something similar, they have all been cool and relaxed and shown they would follow the rational side, in favour of the islamic side?

    I haven't, I never met 1 muslim in my entire islamic life, that could say they would defend the west against an islamic invasion.  To do so would be unislamic beyond a way they believed could be forgiven, unlike their dress lapses, or the their drinking and fornicating. 

    I totally agree with her, I don't think she is advocating what you fear will come of it, and anyway your fear, well lets face it, if a group wants to hate they will hate no matter how carefully you word your statement.  If they can use it to further their hate, they will.  This is not really a reason to stop making these statements though.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #27 - May 08, 2009, 10:47 AM



    There are Muslims fighting in the French army as we speak, there are Muslims who died for France in world war 1 and 2 (Morrocans, Tunisians and Senegalese were fucking volunteers for fuck's sake).

    People like her who generalize about an entire of people consciously choose to ignore this as it brings to light the gaping holes in their bigoted ideologies.

    Fuck Ayaan Hirsi Ali


    No no, you miss her point, she isn't talking about their ability to fight against another muslim for their country if Islam is not blatantly involved.

    I believe she is talking about the choice that would be made if say The president clearly stated publicly "tomorrow we go to war to wipe islam off of the face of the earth"

    Would a muslim choose to fight for Islam, to defend it's right to remain, or would the atheist muslim choose to war against Islam?


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #28 - May 08, 2009, 10:56 AM

    Here is the key section confirming there is no difference between Ayaan and the rest of the fascist anti-muslim movement.

    "In March this year, the French intellectual Pascal Bruckner and I spoke about Caldwell's book. Bruckner said, "Americans [like Caldwell] do not understand Europe. There are many Muslims who, in their daily lives, are more agnostic and in their practices even atheist, but are just Muslim in name."

    This seems to be reassuring. But would these agnostic and unpracticing Muslims, if push came to shove, die for Islam or for France? My guess is they would, most likely, die for Islam."

    This is where ALL muslims, no matter how advanced, progressive or even atheist are lumped in together as no better than extremists. All are suspect of dual loyalties which is nice way of saying traitor.

    This is where an atheist or agnostic arab or pakistani guy who happens to be born into a Muslim family will say "fuck you, you won't let me be anything but a duplicitous Muslim then so be it"

    Fuck Ayaan Hirsi Ali


    But I agree with her position there.

    Most muslims I know blatantly vowed they would fight to the death to defend Islam if the west went to war against islam.  These are westernised muslims who wouldn't even remember the fatiha under pressure, but their loyalty is not to the western ideals that allow them to have the freedom they gloriously cherish. It is to Islam.

    Almost all muslims know deep down that there has to be an ultimate choice of loyalty down the road.



    Well if there's a genocide against Muslims, of course Muslims would react. Why shouldnt they? would anyone not?

    Do you expect Jewish citizens of Nazi germany to join in on the holocaust fun (some did and they're called Judenrat)? Why not? were they not citizens of germany? where do their loyalties lie? This is the kind of self-fulfiling prophecy that leads to disasters.

    Civil disobedience is a right, if an extreme right-wing european movement takes power and decides to launch a "war against Islam", are Muslims citizens of that country supposed to help the fascist kill fellow Muslims so that they're not accused of dual loyalties?

    The western ideas of freedom would be completely meaningless if the west decides to launch a genocidal war against Muslims.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
     Reply #29 - May 08, 2009, 11:00 AM



    There are Muslims fighting in the French army as we speak, there are Muslims who died for France in world war 1 and 2 (Morrocans, Tunisians and Senegalese were fucking volunteers for fuck's sake).

    People like her who generalize about an entire of people consciously choose to ignore this as it brings to light the gaping holes in their bigoted ideologies.

    Fuck Ayaan Hirsi Ali


    No no, you miss her point, she isn't talking about their ability to fight against another muslim for their country if Islam is not blatantly involved.

    I believe she is talking about the choice that would be made if say The president clearly stated publicly "tomorrow we go to war to wipe islam off of the face of the earth"

    Would a muslim choose to fight for Islam, to defend it's right to remain, or would the atheist muslim choose to war against Islam?


    Answered above, the state declared a genocidal war on you and you have a right to defend yourself.

    Only Muslims are asked these types of questions.

    "Ok so if the president orders all Muslim newborns destroyed, would you be loyal to your country or be a traitor? "

    Mmm let me think

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
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