Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots

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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #30 - May 08, 2009, 11:04 AM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 10:56 AM

Well if there's a genocide against Muslims, of course Muslims would react. Why shouldnt they? would anyone not?

Do you expect Jewish citizens of Nazi germany to join in on the holocaust fun (some did and they're called Judenrat)? Why not? were they not citizens of germany? where do their loyalties lie? This is the kind of self-fulfiling prophecy that leads to disasters.

Civil disobedience is a right, if an extreme right-wing european movement takes power and decides to launch a "war against Islam", are Muslims citizens of that country supposed to help the fascist kill fellow Muslims so that they're not accused of dual loyalties?

The western ideas of freedom would be completely meaningless if the west decides to launch a genocidal war against Muslims.

Who was talking about a genocide? I didn't even mention violence to bring about an end to islam.

How would all muslims in britain react if the quran was banned, or if not banned enforced editing to take out the parts that are not compatible with western life? If certain verses were not allowed to be used in mosque sermons?

If mosques were no longer allowed to be built?

If muslim schools were closed down?

If the hijab was banned in schools, shops, work, everywhere?

Basically if the UK did to Islam what saudi does to christianity?

I mean I hear a minor fuss and cry from the christians about the treatment of their brothers and sisters in egypt, or saudi and other muslim countries, yet I don't see them making war to change that.

If Islam was placed under severe restrictions in the UK, how do you think many of those atheist muslims would react?

Maybe not with aggression (although I am sure the larger portion would be) but don't you think many of them would become more muslim because their loyalty lies with the ideology and they always knew it would come to a crunch.

(please realise I am not advocating the UK do this, merely asking what it would result in if they did)

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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #31 - May 08, 2009, 11:06 AM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:00 AM

Answered above, the state declared a genocidal war on you and you have a right to defend yourself.

Only Muslims are asked these types of questions.

"Ok so if the president orders all Muslim newborns destroyed, would you be loyal to your country or be a traitor? "

Mmm let me think

I remember your last tag was blood crazed muslim so I should have realised that "war on islam" would lead you to visualise some genocide. You ever heard of a war without violence?

The war on drugs isn't exactly seen as genocide of druggies now is it, war on islam that I was referring to was the same as the war on drugs.

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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #32 - May 08, 2009, 11:08 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 11:04 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 10:56 AM

Well if there's a genocide against Muslims, of course Muslims would react. Why shouldnt they? would anyone not?

Do you expect Jewish citizens of Nazi germany to join in on the holocaust fun (some did and they're called Judenrat)? Why not? were they not citizens of germany? where do their loyalties lie? This is the kind of self-fulfiling prophecy that leads to disasters.

Civil disobedience is a right, if an extreme right-wing european movement takes power and decides to launch a "war against Islam", are Muslims citizens of that country supposed to help the fascist kill fellow Muslims so that they're not accused of dual loyalties?

The western ideas of freedom would be completely meaningless if the west decides to launch a genocidal war against Muslims.

Who was talking about a genocide? I didn't even mention violence to bring about an end to islam.

How would all muslims in britain react if the quran was banned, or if not banned enforced editing to take out the parts that are not compatible with western life? If certain verses were not allowed to be used in mosque sermons?

If mosques were no longer allowed to be built?

If muslim schools were closed down?

If the hijab was banned in schools, shops, work, everywhere?

Basically if the UK did to Islam what saudi does to christianity?

Then the state would have failed to uphold the western ideals of freedom which would become essentially meaningless.

There would be violence, there would be an exodus and there would be unrest. The message of the state would essentially be that ALL muslims are an alien hostile presence and Ill let you figure out what happens to human rights when one group is designated in this way.

And genocide is the logical conclusion, this is the way it always starts.

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #33 - May 08, 2009, 11:11 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 11:06 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:00 AM

Answered above, the state declared a genocidal war on you and you have a right to defend yourself.

Only Muslims are asked these types of questions.

"Ok so if the president orders all Muslim newborns destroyed, would you be loyal to your country or be a traitor? "

Mmm let me think

I remember your last tag was blood crazed muslim so I should have realised that "war on islam" would lead you to visualise some genocide. You ever heard of a war without violence?

No I haven't, especially when we talk about a war on a religion and a culture, the vectors of which are Human beings.

Put simply, no Muslims in england = No Islam = and Islam problem.

Thats it, its that simple and its logical. Its happened before in all cultures and it always starts the same way. This is the reason why otherwise normal people would start supporting genocide after joining FFI.

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #34 - May 08, 2009, 11:15 AM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:08 AM

Then the state would have failed to uphold the western ideals of freedom which would become essentially meaningless.

There would be violence, there would be an exodus and there would be unrest. The message of the state would essentially be that ALL muslims are an alien hostile presence and Ill let you figure out what happens to human rights when one group is designated in this way.

And genocide is the logical conclusion, this is the way it always starts.

Which has pretty much proven the point I was trying to make, Ayaan is right, when push comes to shove muslims will choose Islam, and that's not healthy for the host country.

I realise that many of our freedom laws are being used against us by people who don't really respect freedom.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #35 - May 08, 2009, 11:16 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 11:06 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:00 AM

Answered above, the state declared a genocidal war on you and you have a right to defend yourself.

Only Muslims are asked these types of questions.

"Ok so if the president orders all Muslim newborns destroyed, would you be loyal to your country or be a traitor? "

Mmm let me think

I remember your last tag was blood crazed muslim so I should have realised that "war on islam" would lead you to visualise some genocide. You ever heard of a war without violence?

The war on drugs isn't exactly seen as genocide of druggies now is it, war on islam that I was referring to was the same as the war on drugs.

The war on drugs has actually led to great violence since it includes a very prominent law enforcement component, but thats besides the point since we're talking about a culture and a religion that is a integral of a person's identity.

The Soviets had their war on religion which included massacres, destruction of religious buildings and re-education.

Quite the model..

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #36 - May 08, 2009, 11:17 AM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:11 AM

No I haven't, especially when we talk about a war on a religion and a culture, the vectors of which are Human beings.

Put simply, no Muslims in england = No Islam = and Islam problem.

Thats it, its that simple and its logical. Its happened before in all cultures and it always starts the same way. This is the reason why otherwise normal people would start supporting genocide after joining FFI.

Damn, I honestly did forget who I was talking to for a second. I forgot how hysterical and unreasonable you get.

Your only way to get Islam as it is out of the UK is to kick muslims out of the UK........it's not my way.

I believe a few changes here and there will really help put a leash on Islam's growth, and none of them involved violence or banishment.

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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #37 - May 08, 2009, 11:20 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 11:15 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:08 AM

Then the state would have failed to uphold the western ideals of freedom which would become essentially meaningless.

There would be violence, there would be an exodus and there would be unrest. The message of the state would essentially be that ALL muslims are an alien hostile presence and Ill let you figure out what happens to human rights when one group is designated in this way.

And genocide is the logical conclusion, this is the way it always starts.

Which has pretty much proven the point I was trying to make, Ayaan is right, when push comes to shove muslims will choose Islam, and that's not healthy for the host country.

I realise that many of our freedom laws are being used against us by people who don't really respect freedom.

Its not healthy if the host country is a totalitarian or fascist state.

Is a Christian loyal to Gordon Brown or Jesus? Should a christian quiety accept fascist anti-christian laws under the pretext that the state has decreed them? No? So why should a Muslim?

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #38 - May 08, 2009, 11:21 AM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:16 AM

The war on drugs has actually led to great violence since it includes a very prominent law enforcement component, but thats besides the point since we're talking about a culture and a religion that is a integral of a person's identity.

What, a genocidal level of violence as you tried to imply I was talking about? NO, not by a long shot.

Quote

The Soviets had their war on religion which included massacres, destruction of religious buildings and re-education.

Quite the model..

Ah well, if the soviets got it wrong we should never try again right? No need to learn from the past and ensure it's done better this time round, no no. One failure means we should just never attempt it again.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #39 - May 08, 2009, 11:24 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 11:17 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:11 AM

No I haven't, especially when we talk about a war on a religion and a culture, the vectors of which are Human beings.

Put simply, no Muslims in england = No Islam = and Islam problem.

Thats it, its that simple and its logical. Its happened before in all cultures and it always starts the same way. This is the reason why otherwise normal people would start supporting genocide after joining FFI.

Damn, I honestly did forget who I was talking to for a second. I forgot how hysterical and unreasonable you get.

Unreasonable? are you seriously blind? these are conclusions reached by almost everyone who ends up in the anti-Islam movement.

IF Islam is an totalitarian ideology of hate

IF Islam calls for our destruction

IF the vectors of this ideology are in our country i.e. Muslims

IF these, independent of their religious fervour, are inevitably loyal to Islam (Totalitarian evil ideology which calls for our destruction).

Then the only way to avoid a disaster is to remove this cancer from our society.

This is perfectly logical, why do you act like Im just making this up?

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #40 - May 08, 2009, 11:28 AM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:24 AM
Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 11:17 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:11 AM

No I haven't, especially when we talk about a war on a religion and a culture, the vectors of which are Human beings.

Put simply, no Muslims in england = No Islam = and Islam problem.

Thats it, its that simple and its logical. Its happened before in all cultures and it always starts the same way. This is the reason why otherwise normal people would start supporting genocide after joining FFI.

Damn, I honestly did forget who I was talking to for a second. I forgot how hysterical and unreasonable you get.

Unreasonable? are you seriously blind? these are conclusions reached by almost everyone who ends up in the anti-Islam movement.

IF Islam is an totalitarian ideology of hate

IF Islam calls for our destruction

IF the vectors of this ideology are in our country i.e. Muslims

IF these, independent of their religious fervour, are inevitably loyal to Islam (Totalitarian evil ideology which calls for our destruction).

Then the only way to avoid a disaster is to remove this cancer from our society.

This is perfectly logical, why do you act like Im just making this up?

I act like you are simply talking about the extreme anti islam side, who would want nothing better than to wipe muslims out with genocide, but to suggest ayaan is promoting that is wrong.

Your whole "fuck ayaan" speech is just your dislike of her for being an ex muslim who gets way too much publicity and causes too many people to question.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #41 - May 08, 2009, 11:29 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 11:21 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:16 AM

The war on drugs has actually led to great violence since it includes a very prominent law enforcement component, but thats besides the point since we're talking about a culture and a religion that is a integral of a person's identity.

What, a genocidal level of violence as you tried to imply I was talking about? NO, not by a long shot.

Quote

The Soviets had their war on religion which included massacres, destruction of religious buildings and re-education.

Quite the model..

Ah well, if the soviets got it wrong we should never try again right? No need to learn from the past and ensure it's done better this time round, no no. One failure means we should just never attempt it again.

Cost a few million lives no biggie, lets give another until we get it right.

Its also been tried in a few other places, like Cambodia under the Khmer but I digress. I guess those who rebelled against the Soviet state's attempt to stamp out Christianity, Islam and Judaism would be viewed as loyal to their religion first in your understanding?

your understanding of the western ideas of freedom is very limited indeed

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #42 - May 08, 2009, 11:31 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 10:47 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 10:40 AM

There are Muslims fighting in the French army as we speak, there are Muslims who died for France in world war 1 and 2 (Morrocans, Tunisians and Senegalese were fucking volunteers for fuck's sake).

People like her who generalize about an entire of people consciously choose to ignore this as it brings to light the gaping holes in their bigoted ideologies.

Fuck Ayaan Hirsi Ali

No no, you miss her point, she isn't talking about their ability to fight against another muslim for their country if Islam is not blatantly involved.

I believe she is talking about the choice that would be made if say The president clearly stated publicly "tomorrow we go to war to wipe islam off of the face of the earth"

Would a muslim choose to fight for Islam, to defend it's right to remain, or would the atheist muslim choose to war against Islam?

And you think that would be alright?

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #43 - May 08, 2009, 11:33 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 11:28 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:24 AM
Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 11:17 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:11 AM

No I haven't, especially when we talk about a war on a religion and a culture, the vectors of which are Human beings.

Put simply, no Muslims in england = No Islam = and Islam problem.

Thats it, its that simple and its logical. Its happened before in all cultures and it always starts the same way. This is the reason why otherwise normal people would start supporting genocide after joining FFI.

Damn, I honestly did forget who I was talking to for a second. I forgot how hysterical and unreasonable you get.

Unreasonable? are you seriously blind? these are conclusions reached by almost everyone who ends up in the anti-Islam movement.

IF Islam is an totalitarian ideology of hate

IF Islam calls for our destruction

IF the vectors of this ideology are in our country i.e. Muslims

IF these, independent of their religious fervour, are inevitably loyal to Islam (Totalitarian evil ideology which calls for our destruction).

Then the only way to avoid a disaster is to remove this cancer from our society.

This is perfectly logical, why do you act like Im just making this up?

I act like you are simply talking about the extreme anti islam side, who would want nothing better than to wipe muslims out with genocide, but to suggest ayaan is promoting that is wrong.

Your whole "fuck ayaan" speech is just your dislike of her for being an ex muslim who gets way too much publicity and causes too many people to question.

Thats bullshit and you know it, I don't have a problem with criticism of Islam, I have problem when it descends into insinuations about ALL muslims (just as she as done). And yes, she is hero of the anti-Muslim movement, she supports Robert Spencer and Hugh Fitzgerald etc. (remember Jwatch?)

I honestly dont give a fuck about you or anyone else apostacizing.

Yes, fuck Ayaan for her statements on the assumed dual loyalties of All Muslims.

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #44 - May 08, 2009, 11:35 AM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:29 AM

Cost a few million lives no biggie, lets give another until we get it right.

Again with the exaggerating.

Quote

Its also been tried in a few other places, like Cambodia under the Khmer but I digress. I guess those who rebelled against the Soviet state's attempt to stamp out Christianity, Islam and Judaism would be viewed as loyal to their religion first in your understanding?

your understanding of the western ideas of freedom is very limited indeed

Not at all, I just don't think those freedoms are worth spending on anyone who would not offer the exact same freedom in return.

I'm not in a hurry to sit around a campfire singing kumbaya with someone who wants to force me to obey their ideals. As long as they believe I can be forced than I do not believe they merit that freedom so easily granted.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #45 - May 08, 2009, 11:40 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 11:35 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:29 AM

Cost a few million lives no biggie, lets give another until we get it right.

Again with the exaggerating.

I dont think you realize that it takes to stamp out religious belief in a huge place like the Soviet Union.

Just in cambodia, according to Wikipedia

Pol Pot suppressed Cambodia?s Buddhist religion: monks were defrocked; temples and artifacts, including statues of Buddha, were destroyed; and people praying or expressing other religious sentiments were often killed. The Christian and Muslim communities were among the most persecuted, as well. The Roman Catholic cathedral of Phnom Penh was completely razed. The Khmer Rouge forced Muslims to eat pork, which they regard as an abomination. Many of those who refused were killed. Christian clergy and Muslim imams were executed.[27][28] Forty-eight percent of Cambodia's Christians were killed because of their religion.[29]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism.

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #46 - May 08, 2009, 11:43 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 11:28 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:24 AM
Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 11:17 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:11 AM

No I haven't, especially when we talk about a war on a religion and a culture, the vectors of which are Human beings.

Put simply, no Muslims in england = No Islam = and Islam problem.

Thats it, its that simple and its logical. Its happened before in all cultures and it always starts the same way. This is the reason why otherwise normal people would start supporting genocide after joining FFI.

Damn, I honestly did forget who I was talking to for a second. I forgot how hysterical and unreasonable you get.

Unreasonable? are you seriously blind? these are conclusions reached by almost everyone who ends up in the anti-Islam movement.

IF Islam is an totalitarian ideology of hate

IF Islam calls for our destruction

IF the vectors of this ideology are in our country i.e. Muslims

IF these, independent of their religious fervour, are inevitably loyal to Islam (Totalitarian evil ideology which calls for our destruction).

Then the only way to avoid a disaster is to remove this cancer from our society.

This is perfectly logical, why do you act like Im just making this up?

I act like you are simply talking about the extreme anti islam side, who would want nothing better than to wipe muslims out with genocide, but to suggest ayaan is promoting that is wrong.

Why is it extreme if every single muslim (by virtue of refusing to apostacize or join in the "war against islam") is loyal to a totalitarian ideology which calls for my destruction?

There's nothing extreme about that, its me or "them". Why stop at closing mosques etc? why shouldnt they be made to leave? Why would I want people devoted to my destruction to remain in my country?

Can you give me a good reason?

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #47 - May 08, 2009, 11:46 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 11:35 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 11:29 AM

Cost a few million lives no biggie, lets give another until we get it right.

Again with the exaggerating.

Quote

Its also been tried in a few other places, like Cambodia under the Khmer but I digress. I guess those who rebelled against the Soviet state's attempt to stamp out Christianity, Islam and Judaism would be viewed as loyal to their religion first in your understanding?

your understanding of the western ideas of freedom is very limited indeed

Not at all, I just don't think those freedoms are worth spending on anyone who would not offer the exact same freedom in return.

Right, and we are talking about All Muslims by virtue of being loyal to Islam first, right? you agree with Ayaan here.

Therefore...those freedoms are not worth spending on Muslims.

Now where that lead us?

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #48 - May 08, 2009, 11:49 AM

Quote from: King Tut on May 08, 2009, 11:31 AM
Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 10:47 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 10:40 AM

There are Muslims fighting in the French army as we speak, there are Muslims who died for France in world war 1 and 2 (Morrocans, Tunisians and Senegalese were fucking volunteers for fuck's sake).

People like her who generalize about an entire of people consciously choose to ignore this as it brings to light the gaping holes in their bigoted ideologies.

Fuck Ayaan Hirsi Ali

No no, you miss her point, she isn't talking about their ability to fight against another muslim for their country if Islam is not blatantly involved.

I believe she is talking about the choice that would be made if say The president clearly stated publicly "tomorrow we go to war to wipe islam off of the face of the earth"

Would a muslim choose to fight for Islam, to defend it's right to remain, or would the atheist muslim choose to war against Islam?

And you think that would be alright?

Right or wrong, you have to join in or be counted among the traitors.

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #49 - May 08, 2009, 12:04 PM

Quote from: King Tut on May 08, 2009, 11:31 AM

And you think that would be alright?

What a crack down on Islam? yes, I don't have enough love or affinity to the religion to believe it deserves to be left to roam unchecked the way it is now.

I'm also not a fan of the slippery slope arguement that AW is relying on here to prove his point. This isn't the alphabet, so B doesn't necessarily follow A.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #50 - May 08, 2009, 12:16 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 12:04 PM
What a crack down on Islam? yes, I don't have enough love or affinity to the religion to believe it deserves to be left to roam unchecked the way it is now.

Why not a crack down on all faiths then? Why single out Islam?

Quote
I'm also not a fan of the slippery slope arguement that AW is relying on here to prove his point. This isn't the alphabet, so B doesn't necessarily follow A.

But a crack down on Islam would be a violation of basic human rights i.e. the freedom to believe in what religion you choose. It becomes a problem when you are restricting individual's freedoms on thought and conciousness.

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #51 - May 08, 2009, 12:20 PM

Quote from: King Tut on May 08, 2009, 12:16 PM
Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 12:04 PM
What a crack down on Islam? yes, I don't have enough love or affinity to the religion to believe it deserves to be left to roam unchecked the way it is now.

Why not a crack down on all faiths then? Why single out Islam?

I'm not, we were discussing Islam though.

Quote

Quote
I'm also not a fan of the slippery slope arguement that AW is relying on here to prove his point. This isn't the alphabet, so B doesn't necessarily follow A.

But a crack down on Islam would be a violation of basic human rights i.e. the freedom to believe in what religion you choose. It becomes a problem when you are restricting individual's freedoms on thought and conciousness.

Good thing I am not making the rules then, I'm harsher than some of the rights available right now, and the way I would do things would probably appear fascistic to a good few people, but it is just what I believe the right way forward would be.

I just sickens me to see our own laws being used as a way to cheat the system.

Ie, freedom of religion regardless of the religions ideas on freedom.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #52 - May 08, 2009, 12:23 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 12:04 PM
Quote from: King Tut on May 08, 2009, 11:31 AM

And you think that would be alright?

What a crack down on Islam? yes, I don't have enough love or affinity to the religion to believe it deserves to be left to roam unchecked the way it is now.

I'm also not a fan of the slippery slope arguement that AW is relying on here to prove his point. This isn't the alphabet, so B doesn't necessarily follow A.

Its interesting because that's the conclusion reached by the majority of "scholars"in the anti-Islam movement, including apostates such as Ali Sina.

It is also the argument that was first used against jews by national socialists and currently anti-semites worlwide.

Why should the restrictions on freedom for one community stop at the closure of Mosques? who is the vector of the destructive ideology? Muslims.

Tell me why they should be allowed to remain? They are no longer protected under the same freedoms as the rest of their host society, so what is the problem with removing the threat altogether, especially if basic freedoms like freedom of assembly have been excised? Are we to keep a now (understandably) hostile population in the UK? now that we've marginalized them and closed their mosques and school, do we expect them to magically leave Islam altogether?

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #53 - May 08, 2009, 12:27 PM

Quote
Good thing I am not making the rules then, I'm harsher than some of the rights available right now, and the way I would do things would probably appear fascistic to a good few people, but it is just what I believe the right way forward would be.

I just sickens me to see our own laws being used as a way to cheat the system.

Ie, freedom of religion regardless of the religions ideas on freedom.

I find the thought of you, being harsher slightly arousing. You believe the fascist type of way is the way forward?

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #54 - May 08, 2009, 12:33 PM

Quote from: King Tut on May 08, 2009, 12:27 PM

I find the thought of you, being harsher slightly arousing. You believe the fascist type of way is the way forward?

Honestly I still swing between seeing benefits to both ways forwards, which is why my replies may seem like they are not wholly well thought out, these kind of talks involve me being a bit of a devils advocate, only to hear what is behind the reasoning of people on the other side of the spectrum.

I'm 60% swinging with the idea of being harsh beyond what is aceptable (not to the level that AW keeps taking it too) in the eyes of freedom of religion, and 40% swinging to trying to think of another way.

The thing is everyone who presents their reasoning behind not cracking down, rarely has a better suggestion to replace it.

That's what I'm after here.

Ayaan makes sense, but to those who do not believe her way is the right way, please step up (AW this includes you) and explain the alternative.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #55 - May 08, 2009, 12:34 PM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
Your whole "fuck ayaan" speech is just your dislike of her for being an ex muslim who gets way too much publicity and causes too many people to question.

Exactly.

These nice, dandy, oxymonoronically progressive Muslims are not working hard enough. I find most of them insincere, this cheap bastard called Tariq Ramadan for example. And basically, their position has always been self-contradictory: no matter how progressive they think themselves to be, they still adhere to the Quran, which is a sexist and supremacist pile of crap.

Ah yes, I almost forgot. I am an evil bigot bent on wiping out Muslims.

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
It is also the argument that was first used against jews by national socialists and currently anti-semites worlwide.

...and this anti-semitic crowd is overwhelmingly Islamic nowadays.

Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #56 - May 08, 2009, 12:35 PM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 08:47 AM
Here is the key section confirming there is no difference between Ayaan and the rest of the fascist anti-muslim movement.

"In March this year, the French intellectual Pascal Bruckner and I spoke about Caldwell's book. Bruckner said, "Americans [like Caldwell] do not understand Europe. There are many Muslims who, in their daily lives, are more agnostic and in their practices even atheist, but are just Muslim in name."

This seems to be reassuring. But would these agnostic and unpracticing Muslims, if push came to shove, die for Islam or for France? My guess is they would, most likely, die for Islam."

This is where ALL muslims, no matter how advanced, progressive or even atheist are lumped in together as no better than extremists. All are suspect of dual loyalties which is nice way of saying traitor.

I agree with you AW.

To make the question: "Will you die for your country or your beliefs?" the test of citizenship is utterly wrong in my books.

If one is going to label as "Traitors" those Muslims who regard their faith as more important than any particular government (or some abstract and ill-defined sense of being "British" or whatever) - then you cannot stop there. Since there are Christians, Jews, Hindus and many other religious, political and personal beliefs that people would regard as more important to them than any particular govt or country.

Personally, my own conscience and sense of what is right and wrong supercedes any loyalty I have to any govt or country.

In fact I would go as far as to say that anyone who would blindly obey his govt (or those who claim to speak for his "Country") - without applying his mind and conscience to whether what he is being told to do is right, moral or just - is a fucking moron!
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #57 - May 08, 2009, 12:42 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 08, 2009, 12:35 PM

In fact I would go as far as to say that anyone who would blindly obeys his ~~govt~~ Religion(or those who claim to speak for his "Country") - without applying his mind and conscience to whether what he is being told to do is right, moral or just - is a fucking moron!

Fixed it so you could see the comparison.

In a secular world view using ones own conscience to evaluate obediance to certain rules is expected, it is even encouraged more so than in a religious way.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #58 - May 08, 2009, 12:44 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 12:42 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 08, 2009, 12:35 PM

In fact I would go as far as to say that anyone who would blindly obeys his ~~govt~~ Religion(or those who claim to speak for his "Country") - without applying his mind and conscience to whether what he is being told to do is right, moral or just - is a fucking moron!

Fixed it so you could see the comparison.

Yes, that is obviously true also. (You hardly need to tell me that now do you?) Doesn't change the validity of what I just said.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #59 - May 08, 2009, 12:46 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 12:33 PM
Quote from: King Tut on May 08, 2009, 12:27 PM

I find the thought of you, being harsher slightly arousing. You believe the fascist type of way is the way forward?

Honestly I still swing between seeing benefits to both ways forwards, which is why my replies may seem like they are not wholly well thought out, these kind of talks involve me being a bit of a devils advocate, only to hear what is behind the reasoning of people on the other side of the spectrum.

I'm 60% swinging with the idea of being harsh beyond what is aceptable (not to the level that AW keeps taking it too) in the eyes of freedom of religion, and 40% swinging to trying to think of another way.

The thing is everyone who presents their reasoning behind not cracking down, rarely has a better suggestion to replace it.

That's what I'm after here.

Ayaan makes sense, but to those who do not believe her way is the right way, please step up (AW this includes you) and explain the alternative.

Simple

1. Stop conflating all Muslims into a single unified threat
2. Stop saying that Bin Laden's Islam is the real Islam and stop trying to convince Muslims who disagree that their Islam is bullshit and that they're actually ordered to cut your head off as per the real Islam
3. Dont invade secular Muslim countries like Iraq, thereby confirm the looney conspiracy theories of extremists and removing significant buffers against religious extremism
4. Deport or jail extremist Imams and Jihadist Muslims
5. Stop supporting extremist groups for geopolitical reasons (Jundullah)
6. Stop insinuating that Muslims who dont support extremism are in fact using taqqiya
7. Stop reducing a Muslim's (or an arab/pakistani/turk etc.) every action and word to something Islamic sourced in the Koran.
8. Stop with the double standards where international laws are only enforced against certain nations.
9. Actually go after the source of terrorism on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border (related to point 3)

Thats just for starters

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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