Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots

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- Zaephon
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #60 - May 08, 2009, 12:47 PM

Quote from: Hassan
Personally, my own conscience and sense of what is right and wrong supercedes any loyalty I have to any govt or country.

But if everybody made this assumption, society would collapse. You have to obey the laws of a society in order to be a member of it. If we were to trust Muslims to make such judgements based on their own conscience and sense of what is right and wrong, Britain would have to revive Shariah laws, since a good deal of Muslims are fond of this primitive code of injustice.

Some consciences are superior to others. Do you think the conscience of a Buddhist monk is equal to the conscience of a Muslim terrorist? Laws exist for a purpose.

Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #61 - May 08, 2009, 12:47 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 08, 2009, 12:44 PM

Yes, that is obviously true also. Doesn't change the validity of what I just said.

I know, I wasn't suggesting it did.

It just sucks that there are far more morons on this planet than there are people who are prepared to question any blind obedience.

How do you deal with people who are not prepared to question that blind obedience? do you just ignore tham and hope it's not catching?

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #62 - May 08, 2009, 12:49 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 12:33 PM
Quote from: King Tut on May 08, 2009, 12:27 PM

I find the thought of you, being harsher slightly arousing. You believe the fascist type of way is the way forward?

Honestly I still swing between seeing benefits to both ways forwards, which is why my replies may seem like they are not wholly well thought out, these kind of talks involve me being a bit of a devils advocate, only to hear what is behind the reasoning of people on the other side of the spectrum.

I'm 60% swinging with the idea of being harsh beyond what is aceptable (not to the level that AW keeps taking it too) in the eyes of freedom of religion, and 40% swinging to trying to think of another way.

The thing is everyone who presents their reasoning behind not cracking down, rarely has a better suggestion to replace it.

That's what I'm after here.

Ayaan makes sense, but to those who do not believe her way is the right way, please step up (AW this includes you) and explain the alternative.

Alternative is not to create polrzation and instead have an engaging approach, maybe getting Muslim youths at the school level as opposed to the mosque level, sending in those light Ed Hussian to speak to them, more to be done at university level to show a progressive side of Islam and encourage that more in the intellectual foundations.

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #63 - May 08, 2009, 12:49 PM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
4. Deport or jail extremist Imams and Jihadist Muslims

Yes!

Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #64 - May 08, 2009, 12:51 PM

Quote from: Zaephon on May 08, 2009, 12:47 PM
Quote from: Hassan
Personally, my own conscience and sense of what is right and wrong supercedes any loyalty I have to any govt or country.

But if everybody made this assumption, society would collapse. You have to obey the laws of a society in order to be a member of it. If we were to trust Muslims to make such judgements based on their own conscience and sense of what is right and wrong, Britain would have to revive Shariah laws, since a good deal of Muslims are fond of this primitive code of injustice.

Some consciences are superior to others. Do you think the conscience of a Buddhist monk is equal to the conscience of a Muslim terrorist? Laws exist for a purpose.

There are generally agreed laws in the UK (etc...) which set out limits to how one can behave/live by/express their beliefs/conscience. So long as Muslims (or anyone else) remain within this then you can't start policing beliefs/conscience.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #65 - May 08, 2009, 12:54 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 12:47 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 08, 2009, 12:44 PM

Yes, that is obviously true also. Doesn't change the validity of what I just said.

I know, I wasn't suggesting it did.

It just sucks that there are far more morons on this planet than there are people who are prepared to question any blind obedience.

How do you deal with people who are not prepared to question that blind obedience? do you just ignore tham and hope it's not catching?

I know - it sucks - but actually I am becoming more and more convinced that the sort of things we are doing by being part of this whole debate as Ex-Muslims is at least helping to get ppl to think.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #66 - May 08, 2009, 12:58 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 08, 2009, 12:51 PM

There are generally agreed laws in the UK (etc...) which set out limits to how one can behave/live by/express their beliefs/conscience. So long as Muslims (or anyone else) remain within this then you can't start policing beliefs/conscience.

Aren't some of the basic laws related to sexism thrown out in a sharia court? courts that are slowly wending their way into the UK?

I for one don't think Sharia law should be acceptable, not any part of it, none of that "well if they want it then....".....why can't the "then......." be "they can then go back to their country where sharia was already"?

There is a right, and then there is taking the piss, sharia law in this country is taking the piss and yet slowly but surely it is being allowed by people who believe there should be no limit on freedom of religion.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #67 - May 08, 2009, 01:01 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 12:58 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 08, 2009, 12:51 PM

There are generally agreed laws in the UK (etc...) which set out limits to how one can behave/live by/express their beliefs/conscience. So long as Muslims (or anyone else) remain within this then you can't start policing beliefs/conscience.

Aren't some of the basic laws related to sexism thrown out in a sharia court? courts that are slowly wending their way into the UK?

I for one don't think Sharia law should be acceptable, not any part of it, none of that "well if they want it then....".....why can't the "then......." be "they can then go back to their country where sharia was already"?

There is a right, and then there is taking the piss, sharia law in this country is taking the piss and yet slowly but surely it is being allowed by people who believe there should be no limit on freedom of religion.

Oh yes of course, there is no question that Shari'ah Law should not be allowed in any shape of form - I didn't think that was the issue we were discussing?
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #68 - May 08, 2009, 01:04 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 12:58 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 08, 2009, 12:51 PM

There are generally agreed laws in the UK (etc...) which set out limits to how one can behave/live by/express their beliefs/conscience. So long as Muslims (or anyone else) remain within this then you can't start policing beliefs/conscience.

Aren't some of the basic laws related to sexism thrown out in a sharia court? courts that are slowly wending their way into the UK?

I for one don't think Sharia law should be acceptable, not any part of it, none of that "well if they want it then....".....why can't the "then......." be "they can then go back to their country where sharia was already"?

There is a right, and then there is taking the piss, sharia law in this country is taking the piss and yet slowly but surely it is being allowed by people who believe there should be no limit on freedom of religion.

Your going to fuck women up more without sharia courts, Muslim women cannot get a divorce unless the husband gives them one, so even if they want to leave the husband they cannot, but in a sharia court if a woman is being abused, she can get the marriage annulled.

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #69 - May 08, 2009, 01:07 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 12:58 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 08, 2009, 12:51 PM

There are generally agreed laws in the UK (etc...) which set out limits to how one can behave/live by/express their beliefs/conscience. So long as Muslims (or anyone else) remain within this then you can't start policing beliefs/conscience.

Aren't some of the basic laws related to sexism thrown out in a sharia court? courts that are slowly wending their way into the UK?

I for one don't think Sharia law should be acceptable, not any part of it, none of that "well if they want it then....".....why can't the "then......." be "they can then go back to their country where sharia was already"?

There is a right, and then there is taking the piss, sharia law in this country is taking the piss and yet slowly but surely it is being allowed by people who believe there should be no limit on freedom of religion.

Well I never mentioned that and you won't get any argument from me.

In Canada, it was Muslim women who campaigned most veciforously against the introduction of Shariah courts...yet remained Muslim and continued to practice their religion.

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #70 - May 08, 2009, 01:09 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 08, 2009, 01:01 PM

Oh yes there is no question that Shari'ah Law should not be allowed in any shape of form - I didn't think that was the issue we were discussing?

In some ways it was.

When I said to AW "war on islam", removing sharia law is part of it.

How many muslims are vocally against sharia law in the UK do you think?

Not enough to ensure it never happened, infact many fornicating, drug taking, drinking muslims I know would rave about the wonder of sharia law and how they wanted it (totally ignoring their own hypocrisy) over UK law anyday.

Not really loyal (which isn't the best word choice by ayaan I agree), and it's ayaan stance I was trying to explain to AW who wishes to imply it was more sinister than I believe her aims are.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #71 - May 08, 2009, 01:11 PM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 01:07 PM

Well I never mentioned that and you won't get any argument from me.

In Canada, it was Muslim women who campaigned most veciforously against the introduction of Shariah courts...yet remained Muslim and continued to practice their religion.

I did not know that, interesting and good on her.

Is she a traitor in proving her loyalty to the ideals of her host country? because that's the kind of loyalty I believe Ayaan is getting at.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #72 - May 08, 2009, 01:28 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 01:09 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 08, 2009, 01:01 PM

Oh yes there is no question that Shari'ah Law should not be allowed in any shape of form - I didn't think that was the issue we were discussing?

In some ways it was.

When I said to AW "war on islam", removing sharia law is part of it.

How many muslims are vocally against sharia law in the UK do you think?

Not enough to ensure it never happened, infact many fornicating, drug taking, drinking muslims I know would rave about the wonder of sharia law and how they wanted it (totally ignoring their own hypocrisy) over UK law anyday.

Not really loyal (which isn't the best word choice by ayaan I agree), and it's ayaan stance I was trying to explain to AW who wishes to imply it was more sinister than I believe her aims are.

Im dont believe that her aims are as sinister as calling for genocide (although the implications of her statement are starkly clear). I do believe she is helping to lay the intellectual groundwork for deportation of ALL Muslims.

Removing Shariah is not the same as denying Muslims the freedom of assembly and closing Mosques, it should have never been introduced in the first place since england is for all intents and purposes a secular nation. The precedent with the jewish courts does pose a problem and it will be difficult to justify outlawing one and not the other.

Look berberella, if you were able to convince me that Islam is pure evil dedicated to the destruction of the west - thus logically leading to my apostacy - I would take it upon myself to rid my country of every single Muslim in it. If their loyalty is to an ideology that calls for my destruction, do you think I would sit idly by and let them take it over through sheer numbers?

I would campaign for restrictions on religious freedom; I would campaign for the outlawing of Islam as a hostile creed; I would want to separate from anything Islamic and the primary vector of the ideology is the Muslim; I would support to most anti-Muslim candidate in elections nd if the state refuses to understand the threat; I would take matters into my own hands one way or another to protect my country and way of life.

This, I would call self-defence.

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #73 - May 08, 2009, 01:30 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 01:11 PM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 01:07 PM

Well I never mentioned that and you won't get any argument from me.

In Canada, it was Muslim women who campaigned most veciforously against the introduction of Shariah courts...yet remained Muslim and continued to practice their religion.

I did not know that, interesting and good on her.

Is she a traitor in proving her loyalty to the ideals of her host country? because that's the kind of loyalty I believe Ayaan is getting at.

Ayaan does not understand people like her nor does she understand Muslims.

But these women would campaign even more fiercely against the same state they supported if a law were decreed shutting down all mosques and Muslim schools.

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #74 - May 08, 2009, 01:35 PM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 01:28 PM

Im dont believe that her aims are as sinister as calling for genocide (although the implications of her statement are starkly clear). I do believe she is helping to lay the intellectual groundwork for deportation of ALL Muslims.

Removing Shariah is not the same as denying Muslims the freedom of assembly and closing Mosques, it should have never been introduced in the first place since england is for all intents and purposes a secular nation. The precedent with the jewish courts does pose a problem and it will be difficult to justify outlawing one and not the other.

Look berberella, if you were able to convince me that Islam is pure evil dedicated to the destruction of the west - thus logically leading to my apostacy - I would take it upon myself to rid my country of every single Muslim in it. If their loyalty is to an ideology that calls for my destruction, do you think I would sit idly by and let them take it over through sheer numbers?

I would campaign for restrictions on religious freedom; I would campaign for the outlawing of Islam as a hostile creed; I would want to separate from anything Islamic and the primary vector of the ideology is the Muslim; I would support to most anti-Muslim candidate in elections nd if the state refuses to understand the threat; I would take matters into my own hands one way or another to protect my country and way of life.

This, I would call self-defence.

The thing is I am convinced that it is, but I could never support the measures you say you would if you were convinced of it too.

Neither could Maryam Namazie and the council of ex muslims who are anti islam yet understand a need to do things a different way, a less harsh way than the way you would throw yourself into.

I would place some limits, it would then be up to the reaction of the people who have been limited as to how it plays out. If I placed those limits, ie removing sharia and closing down islamic schools that are not government checked etc led to more bombing of the trains and such, then it isn't my fault, it is the fault of those who want to impose what I view as an evil ideology on a country they have no right to.

It's like refusing to let your child have some right they think they deserve, and then them throwing a temper tantrum because of it, it may be easier to give in, but it's a temporary reprieve.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #75 - May 08, 2009, 01:42 PM

Quote from: BerberElla
It's like refusing to let your child have some right they think they deserve, and then them throwing a temper tantrum because of it, it may be easier to give in, but it's a temporary reprieve.

+1

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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #76 - May 08, 2009, 01:46 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on May 08, 2009, 01:35 PM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 01:28 PM

Im dont believe that her aims are as sinister as calling for genocide (although the implications of her statement are starkly clear). I do believe she is helping to lay the intellectual groundwork for deportation of ALL Muslims.

Removing Shariah is not the same as denying Muslims the freedom of assembly and closing Mosques, it should have never been introduced in the first place since england is for all intents and purposes a secular nation. The precedent with the jewish courts does pose a problem and it will be difficult to justify outlawing one and not the other.

Look berberella, if you were able to convince me that Islam is pure evil dedicated to the destruction of the west - thus logically leading to my apostacy - I would take it upon myself to rid my country of every single Muslim in it. If their loyalty is to an ideology that calls for my destruction, do you think I would sit idly by and let them take it over through sheer numbers?

I would campaign for restrictions on religious freedom; I would campaign for the outlawing of Islam as a hostile creed; I would want to separate from anything Islamic and the primary vector of the ideology is the Muslim; I would support to most anti-Muslim candidate in elections nd if the state refuses to understand the threat; I would take matters into my own hands one way or another to protect my country and way of life.

This, I would call self-defence.

The thing is I am convinced that it is, but I could never support the measures you say you would if you were convinced of it too.

Neither could Maryam Namazie and the council of ex muslims who are anti islam yet understand a need to do things a different way, a less harsh way than the way you would throw yourself into.

Possibly because you are ex-muslims born into Islam and thus have family members who are still Muslims (You have mentioned this in the past).

Westerners such as myself dont have any such filial links and we would begin to doubt even your loyalty if you would not support measures to remove the threat of Islam (i.e. Muslims) from the west.

This is the logical way of dealing with a threat, as hugh fitzgerald (and others) as pointed out many times with the benes decree.

Ayaan and Ibn warrak are however part of this movement and have sat in conferences where these measures are discussed rationally. Far from denouncing this, people like Ibn Warrak have praised Hugh Fitzgerald, vice-president of Jwatch appointed by Robert Spencer, himself a great supported of Ayaan.

This is what is being seriously talked about in all anti-Islam circles with the exception of, the council's founding members.

And closing Islamic schools that are preaching hate is not what I argued against berberella.

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #77 - May 08, 2009, 01:56 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 08, 2009, 12:35 PM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 08:47 AM
Here is the key section confirming there is no difference between Ayaan and the rest of the fascist anti-muslim movement.

"In March this year, the French intellectual Pascal Bruckner and I spoke about Caldwell's book. Bruckner said, "Americans [like Caldwell] do not understand Europe. There are many Muslims who, in their daily lives, are more agnostic and in their practices even atheist, but are just Muslim in name."

This seems to be reassuring. But would these agnostic and unpracticing Muslims, if push came to shove, die for Islam or for France? My guess is they would, most likely, die for Islam."

This is where ALL muslims, no matter how advanced, progressive or even atheist are lumped in together as no better than extremists. All are suspect of dual loyalties which is nice way of saying traitor.

I agree with you AW.

To make the question: "Will you die for your country or your beliefs?" the test of citizenship is utterly wrong in my books.

If one is going to label as "Traitors" those Muslims who regard their faith as more important than any particular government (or some abstract and ill-defined sense of being "British" or whatever) - then you cannot stop there. Since there are Christians, Jews, Hindus and many other religious, political and personal beliefs that people would regard as more important to them than any particular govt or country.

You are the voice of reason, Hassan.

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #78 - May 08, 2009, 02:13 PM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 01:30 PM
Ayaan does not understand people like her nor does she understand Muslims.

One minor point. Ayaan was born and raised Muslim.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
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Re: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots
Reply #79 - May 08, 2009, 02:24 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on May 08, 2009, 02:13 PM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on May 08, 2009, 01:30 PM
Ayaan does not understand people like her nor does she understand Muslims.

One minor point. Ayaan was born and raised Muslim.

Im aware of that, so was Ali Sina (and others) and I dont think he understands Muslims either.

I would add that people like Ayaan do not understand the west and its people either.

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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