Absurd Doubts

Skip navigation

Sidebar -

↑ ↓

CEMB → Forum → Life, The Universe & Everything → Science → Absurd Doubts

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Theme Changer

Site default theme Optional dark theme Basic wap2 interface

Topic: Absurd Doubts

(Read 55752 times)

Previous page 1 ... 7 8 910 11 ... 13 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- rayback
- do you fear debates?
- Restricted
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #240 - May 18, 2009, 04:12 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 04:08 PM
Quote from: rayback on May 18, 2009, 04:02 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 03:55 PM
Quote from: rayback on May 18, 2009, 03:20 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 03:17 PM
You mean God doesn't send anyone to hell after they die?

When did I say God does not send anyone to Hell.

But I thought that people in hell were tortured and one of the punishments is that a person's skin will be burnt off and then will be given new skin so that they can re-suffer the pain, and again and again for ever. Is that not true?

Why dont you answer the question.

Oh, sorry, I didn't see a question mark..

Well, actually... you can work out what my answer is from my reply... Oh well I'll put it simply:

When I used the thought experiment of a man torturing a lesbian because she rejected him, I was trying to compare the man's actions to God's actions. That is, the man was replicating the kind of torture that somebody who went to hell would suffer. To this you replied that God would never do anything similar to the man in my example would do because God isn't cruel like that. I was confused because God clearly does do things to people who reject him which are even worse than what the man in my thought experiment did; that is, he sends them to hell. That is why I asked doesn't God send anyone to hell after they die?

Yes, but the question I asked is when did I say God sends you to Hell for simply rejecting Him?

truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
- spiral dive
- Poor Lil Lelliphant.
- Ex-Muslim
- bouncy bouncy bouncy
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #241 - May 18, 2009, 04:13 PM

Quote from: rayback on May 18, 2009, 03:52 PM
Quote from: heartbomb on May 18, 2009, 03:46 PM

The punishment must fit the crime.

And yes if there is a hell some people deserve to be there, but few.

How many and of what type?

What should happen to rapists?

Quote from: heartbomb on May 18, 2009, 03:48 PM
God has given rights (supposedly) to do with you as you see fit, but then punishes you for it...he is not benevolent, he is not powerful,

Do you think God punishes you just for having some rights?

In answer to your question, according to the Quran YES.

Right to freedom of religion. People punished for apostatizing.

That's one example.
- spiral dive
- Poor Lil Lelliphant.
- Ex-Muslim
- bouncy bouncy bouncy
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #242 - May 18, 2009, 04:16 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 03:51 PM
Quote from: rayback on May 18, 2009, 03:37 PM
Quote from: heartbomb on May 18, 2009, 03:28 PM

Not aesthetic value, moral.

Anyone who has the power to stop all of the evil in the world and doesn't is worth nothing to me.
I see him as a man that watches a rape and does nothing.

I don't mean to insult you its just my view.

Does nothing?

Oh I see.

You mean, you too now want that rapist to burn in Hell?

How nice.

I think you and me a lot more in common than meets the eye.

I knew it.

You are indeed a good man.

I could feel the force flow through you.

By the way, you did not insult me. You spoke honestly.

Good luck.

I suspect heartbomb's boyfriend meant stop the rapist from carrying on... not burn the rapist in hell.

Yeh, we had a discussion about it. I believe in redemption, but of course, it is an idealistic stance.

Not sure exactly what my boyfriend meant, I'm trying to get him to register so not to confuse people when he's posting with my account
- J4m3z
- Ex-Muslim
- طالب الفلسفة
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #243 - May 18, 2009, 04:19 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2009, 04:05 PM
I am thinking about making a video called "Who will go to Hell according to the Qur'an?" and bring loads of quotes from the Qur'an - because it doesn't leave any room for doubt that people who reject belief in Islam and God will burn in Hell for an eternity.

It may well be true that rapists, murderers etc... will go to Hell.

Bet let's be very clear - when the Qur'an talks about punishing people for an eternity in Hell - 90% of the time it is for rejecting belief in Islam and God.

Since the proof that Islam is true and that God exists is far from undeniable (to put it mildly) then such a punishment is obviously totally unjust and sadistically excessive.

Muslims have no option but to keep playing 'dodge the bullet' - like Rayback does.

Because if they stand still for a second and actually think rationally about it they cannot avoid the conclusion that Hell is just wrong!

End of story.

I thought you made a video about this already? If I'm mistaken then I look forward to seeing it!

Can I just add, I don't think that the absence of proof of Islam adds much in favour of the view that hell is cruel. I see what your saying that in order to avoid hell, people are being expected to accept something very dubious and almost impossible to verify, but even if it was obvious that Islam was the truth, to say honestly that you will torture somebody in hell, endlessly, if some muppet still gets it wrong, is very cruel indeed, and I think that it is this fact alone that makes God show himself to be incredibly malevolent.

The unlived life is not worth examining.
- spiral dive
- Poor Lil Lelliphant.
- Ex-Muslim
- bouncy bouncy bouncy
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #244 - May 18, 2009, 04:20 PM

Quote from: rayback on May 18, 2009, 04:12 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 04:08 PM
Quote from: rayback on May 18, 2009, 04:02 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 03:55 PM
Quote from: rayback on May 18, 2009, 03:20 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 03:17 PM
You mean God doesn't send anyone to hell after they die?

When did I say God does not send anyone to Hell.

But I thought that people in hell were tortured and one of the punishments is that a person's skin will be burnt off and then will be given new skin so that they can re-suffer the pain, and again and again for ever. Is that not true?

Why dont you answer the question.

Oh, sorry, I didn't see a question mark..

Well, actually... you can work out what my answer is from my reply... Oh well I'll put it simply:

When I used the thought experiment of a man torturing a lesbian because she rejected him, I was trying to compare the man's actions to God's actions. That is, the man was replicating the kind of torture that somebody who went to hell would suffer. To this you replied that God would never do anything similar to the man in my example would do because God isn't cruel like that. I was confused because God clearly does do things to people who reject him which are even worse than what the man in my thought experiment did; that is, he sends them to hell. That is why I asked doesn't God send anyone to hell after they die?

Yes, but the question I asked is when did I say God sends you to Hell for simply rejecting Him?

If you believe in the Qur'an and Hadith (which I am still unclear if you do, because you did not answer Islame's question on whether you follow Islam or Christianity) then it is quite clear that if you apostatize, you will be punished.
- J4m3z
- Ex-Muslim
- طالب الفلسفة
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #245 - May 18, 2009, 04:20 PM

Quote from: rayback on May 18, 2009, 04:12 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 04:08 PM
Quote from: rayback on May 18, 2009, 04:02 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 03:55 PM
Quote from: rayback on May 18, 2009, 03:20 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 03:17 PM
You mean God doesn't send anyone to hell after they die?

When did I say God does not send anyone to Hell.

But I thought that people in hell were tortured and one of the punishments is that a person's skin will be burnt off and then will be given new skin so that they can re-suffer the pain, and again and again for ever. Is that not true?

Why dont you answer the question.

Oh, sorry, I didn't see a question mark..

Well, actually... you can work out what my answer is from my reply... Oh well I'll put it simply:

When I used the thought experiment of a man torturing a lesbian because she rejected him, I was trying to compare the man's actions to God's actions. That is, the man was replicating the kind of torture that somebody who went to hell would suffer. To this you replied that God would never do anything similar to the man in my example would do because God isn't cruel like that. I was confused because God clearly does do things to people who reject him which are even worse than what the man in my thought experiment did; that is, he sends them to hell. That is why I asked doesn't God send anyone to hell after they die?

Yes, but the question I asked is when did I say God sends you to Hell for simply rejecting Him?

So a non-muslim can go to heaven on good deeds alone?

The unlived life is not worth examining.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #246 - May 18, 2009, 04:38 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 04:19 PM

I thought you made a video about this already? If I'm mistaken then I look forward to seeing it!

Yes I made one video about Hell - and I have made one about proof that Islam is true.

But it really irritates me the way Muslims keep trying to argue that Islam doesn't say you won't go to hell just for not believing and keep talking about rapists and murderers etc... when the Qur'an quite clearly talks simply about unbelievers.

I just feel it would be worth just quoting some of the very many verses that make it very clear that Hell is basically for not believing the right thing.

I haven't made a video focussing on that in itself.

Anyway - it's just a thought.

Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 04:19 PM
Can I just add, I don't think that the absence of proof of Islam adds much in favour of the view that hell is cruel. I see what your saying that in order to avoid hell, people are being expected to accept something very dubious and almost impossible to verify, but even if it was obvious that Islam was the truth, to say honestly that you will torture somebody in hell, endlessly, if some muppet still gets it wrong, is very cruel indeed, and I think that it is this fact alone that makes God show himself to be incredibly malevolent.

Yes, of course that is absolutely correct. Hell is unjust and unbelievably cruel and sadistic even if it is for the very worst criminal.

It's just that Muslims keep on about how Kufr is such a terrible crime it deserves a terrible punishment. Kufr looms so large in the head of Muslims. I just feel it is important to show that this is simply not true. Kufr - disbelief - is actually a perfectly understandable and reasonable position to take. A person who rejects Islam has done nothing wrong. On the contrary he has simply used the mind he has been given to assess the facts he sees before him. If his mind or the reality he sees have misled him - then it is God who is guilty.

Yet God will punish man in the most sadistic and unbelievably cruel manner - for something that is his own fault.

This whole logic is so screwed. It deserves to be highlighted.

I think the straightforward indefensibility of Hell speaks for itself for those who are able to think rationally - and so I don't need to concentrate so much on that. (Though I do raise that point also.)
- J4m3z
- Ex-Muslim
- طالب الفلسفة
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #247 - May 18, 2009, 04:43 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2009, 04:38 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 04:19 PM

I thought you made a video about this already? If I'm mistaken then I look forward to seeing it!

Yes I made one video about Hell - and I have made one about proof that Islam is true.

But it really irritates me the way Muslims keep trying to argue that Islam doesn't say you won't go to hell just for not believing and keep talking about rapists and murderers etc... when the Qur'an quite clearly talks simply about unbelievers.

I just feel it would be worth just quoting some of the very many verses that make it very clear that Hell is basically for not believing the right thing.

I haven't made a video focussing on that in itself.

Anyway - it's just a thought.

Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 04:19 PM
Can I just add, I don't think that the absence of proof of Islam adds much in favour of the view that hell is cruel. I see what your saying that in order to avoid hell, people are being expected to accept something very dubious and almost impossible to verify, but even if it was obvious that Islam was the truth, to say honestly that you will torture somebody in hell, endlessly, if some muppet still gets it wrong, is very cruel indeed, and I think that it is this fact alone that makes God show himself to be incredibly malevolent.

Yes, of course that is absolutely correct. Hell is unjust and unbelievably cruel and sadistic even if it is for the very worst criminal.

It's just that Muslims keep on about how Kufr is such a terrible crime it deserves a terrible punishment. Kufr looms so large in the head of Muslims. I just feel it is important to show that this is simply not true. Kufr - disbelief - is actually a perfectly understandable and reasonable position to take. A person who rejects Islam has done nothing wrong. On the contrary he has simply used the mind he has been given to assess the facts he sees before him. If his mind or the reality he sees have misled him - then it is God who is guilty.

Yet God will punish man in the most sadistic and unbelievably cruel manner - for something that is his own fault.

This whole logic is so screwed. It deserves to be highlighted.

I think the straightforward indefensibility of Hell speaks for itself for those who are able to think rationally - and so I don't need to concentrate so much on that. (Though I do raise that point also.)

Excellent. Tell us all when you make it!

The unlived life is not worth examining.
- spiral dive
- Poor Lil Lelliphant.
- Ex-Muslim
- bouncy bouncy bouncy
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #248 - May 18, 2009, 05:14 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2009, 04:38 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 04:19 PM

I thought you made a video about this already? If I'm mistaken then I look forward to seeing it!

Yes I made one video about Hell - and I have made one about proof that Islam is true.

But it really irritates me the way Muslims keep trying to argue that Islam doesn't say you won't go to hell just for not believing and keep talking about rapists and murderers etc... when the Qur'an quite clearly talks simply about unbelievers.

I just feel it would be worth just quoting some of the very many verses that make it very clear that Hell is basically for not believing the right thing.

I haven't made a video focussing on that in itself.

Anyway - it's just a thought.

Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 04:19 PM
Can I just add, I don't think that the absence of proof of Islam adds much in favour of the view that hell is cruel. I see what your saying that in order to avoid hell, people are being expected to accept something very dubious and almost impossible to verify, but even if it was obvious that Islam was the truth, to say honestly that you will torture somebody in hell, endlessly, if some muppet still gets it wrong, is very cruel indeed, and I think that it is this fact alone that makes God show himself to be incredibly malevolent.

Yes, of course that is absolutely correct. Hell is unjust and unbelievably cruel and sadistic even if it is for the very worst criminal.

It's just that Muslims keep on about how Kufr is such a terrible crime it deserves a terrible punishment. Kufr looms so large in the head of Muslims. I just feel it is important to show that this is simply not true. Kufr - disbelief - is actually a perfectly understandable and reasonable position to take. A person who rejects Islam has done nothing wrong. On the contrary he has simply used the mind he has been given to assess the facts he sees before him. If his mind or the reality he sees have misled him - then it is God who is guilty.

Yet God will punish man in the most sadistic and unbelievably cruel manner - for something that is his own fault.

This whole logic is so screwed. It deserves to be highlighted.

I think the straightforward indefensibility of Hell speaks for itself for those who are able to think rationally - and so I don't need to concentrate so much on that. (Though I do raise that point also.)

Wow. Loved this post.
- Shaneequa
- Pub Regular
- I make pancake for you :)
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #249 - May 18, 2009, 07:51 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 16, 2009, 09:16 AM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 16, 2009, 03:06 AM
Quote from: Hassan on May 15, 2009, 09:35 PM
So, how do you know you are not the one being deceived, Shan?

The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

How do you know that wasn't demons deceiving you, Shan?

Demons don't have flesh and bone.
- Shaneequa
- Pub Regular
- I make pancake for you :)
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #250 - May 18, 2009, 07:53 PM

Quote from: rayback on May 16, 2009, 12:00 PM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 15, 2009, 08:59 PM
You guys, I want to talk to rayback. Let me talk to rayback.

What do you want to talk about?

As you know this is not a private topic.

I started it for everyone.

If you read the opening post, you will see that I asked every member to give an example of something in which they have real doubt.

It can be seen that most doubts that Atheist harbour in their heart are mostly silly and absurd doubts.

They are not real logical doubts. They have no validity.

Atheists are deluded by their unreasonable doubts.

Its tragic and ironic.

Hi Rayback,

Have you always been a Muslim?
- Shaneequa
- Pub Regular
- I make pancake for you :)
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #251 - May 18, 2009, 07:57 PM

Let me try to explain hell. I'm going to ask some questions:

1. What happens if you lie to a child?

2. What happens if you lie to your spouse?

3. What happens if you lie to your boss?

4. What happens if you lie to the your President or Prime Minister?

Now, what happens if you lie to the King of all kings?
- J4m3z
- Ex-Muslim
- طالب الفلسفة
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #252 - May 18, 2009, 08:00 PM

Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 07:57 PM
Let me try to explain hell. I'm going to ask some questions:

1. What happens if you lie to a child?

2. What happens if you lie to your spouse?

3. What happens if you lie to your boss?

4. What happens if you lie to the your President or Prime Minister?

Now, what happens if you lie to the King of all kings?

Don't you think that it is rude that you leave my questions unanswered for days and then you come back when you feel like asking questions of your own?

The unlived life is not worth examining.
- Shaneequa
- Pub Regular
- I make pancake for you :)
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #253 - May 18, 2009, 08:02 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 08:00 PM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 07:57 PM
Let me try to explain hell. I'm going to ask some questions:

1. What happens if you lie to a child?

2. What happens if you lie to your spouse?

3. What happens if you lie to your boss?

4. What happens if you lie to the your President or Prime Minister?

Now, what happens if you lie to the King of all kings?

Don't you think that it is rude that you leave my questions unanswered for days and then you come back when you feel like asking questions of your own?

I'm sorry. What is your question?
- Shaneequa
- Pub Regular
- I make pancake for you :)
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #254 - May 18, 2009, 08:05 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 03:55 PM
Quote from: rayback on May 18, 2009, 03:20 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 03:17 PM
You mean God doesn't send anyone to hell after they die?

Oh He does.

Hell is no joke.

When did I say God does not send anyone to Hell.

That would make the creation of Hell a useless excercise.

God does nothing useless.

But I thought that people in hell were tortured and one of the punishments is that a person's skin will be burnt off and then will be given new skin so that they can re-suffer the pain, and again and again for ever. Is that not true?

Yes. It's something like that. Once the damned are judged, they are given their old bodies....and the smoke of their torment shall rise forever....there is never a moment of rest...and their worm dieth not.
- J4m3z
- Ex-Muslim
- طالب الفلسفة
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #255 - May 18, 2009, 08:11 PM

Answer these questions Shaneequa:

Number 1: If I send somebody to murder someone, have I done anything wrong?

Number 2: If somebody wants to be killed, for any reason whatsoever, would I have done anything wrong if I go ahead and kill them?

Number 3: Why do you quote the Qur'an and then judge Allah for being a deceiver? The Muslim could just say "you are not God" in the same way you tell me I am not God when I quote the Bible and judge the Biblical God. What do you say to that?

The unlived life is not worth examining.
- Shaneequa
- Pub Regular
- I make pancake for you :)
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #256 - May 18, 2009, 08:18 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 08:11 PM
Answer these questions Shaneequa:

Number 1: If I send somebody to murder someone, have I done anything wrong?

Yes.
Quote
Number 2: If somebody wants to be killed, for any reason whatsoever, would I have done anything wrong if I go ahead and kill them?

Yes.

Quote
Number 3: Why do you quote the Qur'an and then judge Allah for being a deceiver? The Muslim could just say "you are not God" in the same way you tell me I am not God when I quote the Bible and judge the Biblical God. What do you say to that?

I say that is is between you and God.
- J4m3z
- Ex-Muslim
- طالب الفلسفة
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #257 - May 18, 2009, 08:39 PM

Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 08:18 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 08:11 PM
Answer these questions Shaneequa:

Number 1: If I send somebody to murder someone, have I done anything wrong?

Yes.

So when I send somebody to deceive somebody, I have done something morally wrong, right?

Quote
Quote
Number 2: If somebody wants to be killed, for any reason whatsoever, would I have done anything wrong if I go ahead and kill them?

Yes.

So when I deceive somebody who wants to be deceived, I have done something morally wrong, right?

Quote
Quote
Number 3: Why do you quote the Qur'an and then judge Allah for being a deceiver? The Muslim could just say "you are not God" in the same way you tell me I am not God when I quote the Bible and judge the Biblical God. What do you say to that?

I say that is is between you and God.

What is between me and God? The issue at hand? I don't see how it can be. As far as I understand, this is an issue about why you have judged the Qur'an when you rebuke me for judging the Bible with the not-so-clear statement that "I am not God". How can you justify applying a critical mind to another holy book whilst condemning applying a critical mind to your holy book? What is the principle at work here? It might be "it is wrong to apply a critical mind to a holy book" in which case, why are you doing so against the Qur'an? Or, the principle at work here might be "it is wrong to apply a critical mind to the true holy book, that is, the book that God really sent down to us", in which case are you not indirectly condemning your own conversion to Christianity? I am sure you critically assessed the validity of the Bible before concluding that Christianity was the true religion, did you not?

The unlived life is not worth examining.
- Shaneequa
- Pub Regular
- I make pancake for you :)
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #258 - May 18, 2009, 08:55 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 08:39 PM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 08:18 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 08:11 PM
Answer these questions Shaneequa:

Number 1: If I send somebody to murder someone, have I done anything wrong?

Yes.

So when I send somebody to deceive somebody, I have done something morally wrong, right?

Quote
Quote
Number 2: If somebody wants to be killed, for any reason whatsoever, would I have done anything wrong if I go ahead and kill them?

Yes.

So when I deceive somebody who wants to be deceived, I have done something morally wrong, right?

Quote
Quote
Number 3: Why do you quote the Qur'an and then judge Allah for being a deceiver? The Muslim could just say "you are not God" in the same way you tell me I am not God when I quote the Bible and judge the Biblical God. What do you say to that?

I say that is is between you and God.

What is between me and God? The issue at hand? I don't see how it can be. As far as I understand, this is an issue about why you have judged the Qur'an when you rebuke me for judging the Bible with the not-so-clear statement that "I am not God". How can you justify applying a critical mind to another holy book whilst condemning applying a critical mind to your holy book? What is the principle at work here? It might be "it is wrong to apply a critical mind to a holy book" in which case, why are you doing so against the Qur'an? Or, the principle at work here might be "it is wrong to apply a critical mind to the true holy book, that is, the book that God really sent down to us", in which case are you not indirectly condemning your own conversion to Christianity? I am sure you critically assessed the validity of the Bible before concluding that Christianity was the true religion, did you not?

You may go ahead and apply a critical mind to my holy book. I'm sorry it bothers you so much that God would send a lying spirit to someone that insisted on nothing but lies. God sent this king a prophet to give him direct words from God. And this king did nothing but deride and abuse him....as has been done to almost every one of God's prophets. They were imprisoned and murdered in some cases.

So if God chose to send a lying demon to a king that kept saying "I don't like this prophet, he never says anything nice to me", I don't see anything wrong with that. Since my God cannot lie, he will send a lying demon....and he's going to do it on a scale such as we can't even imagine....as this world continues to reject the truth.
- Shaneequa
- Pub Regular
- I make pancake for you :)
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #259 - May 18, 2009, 09:05 PM

God has been allowing it to happen for a long time: Link.

This is Alan Watt. (He is not a Christian....but for reason, he is able to see how we have been lied to for so long). Even though he can see it now....unless he comes to the love of the ultimate truth, he will not be saved from the strong delusion to come.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #260 - May 18, 2009, 09:29 PM

Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 07:51 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 16, 2009, 09:16 AM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 16, 2009, 03:06 AM
Quote from: Hassan on May 15, 2009, 09:35 PM
So, how do you know you are not the one being deceived, Shan?

The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

How do you know that wasn't demons deceiving you, Shan?

Demons don't have flesh and bone.

How do you know?

And how do you know they can't make it look as if they do have flesh and bones?
- Shaneequa
- Pub Regular
- I make pancake for you :)
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #261 - May 18, 2009, 09:41 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2009, 09:29 PM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 07:51 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 16, 2009, 09:16 AM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 16, 2009, 03:06 AM
Quote from: Hassan on May 15, 2009, 09:35 PM
So, how do you know you are not the one being deceived, Shan?

The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

How do you know that wasn't demons deceiving you, Shan?

Demons don't have flesh and bone.

How do you know?

And how do you know they can't make it look as if they do have flesh and bones?

They can possess people...but the person is a demon...but a demoniac. Anyway, at the time Jesus said that a spirit does not have flesh or bones, a spirit did not have flesh nor bones.

At some point, we have to believe somebody. Even if one chooses to believe oneself, that person needs to take it on faith that he, himself is not a lie. No matter what, there is a point that need to take some things on trust. Of anyone that's ever lived, I believe Jesus is the one in whom I may put my full trust.

If not, we are all in trouble.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #262 - May 18, 2009, 10:05 PM

Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 09:41 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2009, 09:29 PM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 07:51 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 16, 2009, 09:16 AM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 16, 2009, 03:06 AM
Quote from: Hassan on May 15, 2009, 09:35 PM
So, how do you know you are not the one being deceived, Shan?

The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

How do you know that wasn't demons deceiving you, Shan?

Demons don't have flesh and bone.

How do you know?

And how do you know they can't make it look as if they do have flesh and bones?

They can possess people...but the person is a demon...but a demoniac. Anyway, at the time Jesus said that a spirit does not have flesh or bones, a spirit did not have flesh nor bones.

At some point, we have to believe somebody. Even if one chooses to believe oneself, that person needs to take it on faith that he, himself is not a lie. No matter what, there is a point that need to take some things on trust. Of anyone that's ever lived, I believe Jesus is the one in whom I may put my full trust.

We don't have to take anything on faith, Shan.

If there is no real evidence for something then we have no reason to believe it. Especially if the claims are strange and far-fetched.

Don't you understand that your decision to take some old book on faith without any real evidence is exactly the same as all the other religions that do the same.

What makes your faith more true than theirs?

Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 09:41 PM
If not, we are all in trouble.

No, Shan.

If the bible is not true and Jesus was not the son of God - no-one is in trouble.

In fact, the world will be a lot better without silly stories of demons and believers and unbelievers and Hell etc...

It's just you and me and other human beings.

Just normal people.

We can be nice to each other.

And leave all that religious bullshit in the trash can where it belongs, Shan.
- J4m3z
- Ex-Muslim
- طالب الفلسفة
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #263 - May 18, 2009, 10:07 PM

Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 08:55 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 08:39 PM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 08:18 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 08:11 PM
Answer these questions Shaneequa:

Number 1: If I send somebody to murder someone, have I done anything wrong?

Yes.

So when I send somebody to deceive somebody, I have done something morally wrong, right?

Quote
Quote
Number 2: If somebody wants to be killed, for any reason whatsoever, would I have done anything wrong if I go ahead and kill them?

Yes.

So when I deceive somebody who wants to be deceived, I have done something morally wrong, right?

Quote
Quote
Number 3: Why do you quote the Qur'an and then judge Allah for being a deceiver? The Muslim could just say "you are not God" in the same way you tell me I am not God when I quote the Bible and judge the Biblical God. What do you say to that?

I say that is is between you and God.

What is between me and God? The issue at hand? I don't see how it can be. As far as I understand, this is an issue about why you have judged the Qur'an when you rebuke me for judging the Bible with the not-so-clear statement that "I am not God". How can you justify applying a critical mind to another holy book whilst condemning applying a critical mind to your holy book? What is the principle at work here? It might be "it is wrong to apply a critical mind to a holy book" in which case, why are you doing so against the Qur'an? Or, the principle at work here might be "it is wrong to apply a critical mind to the true holy book, that is, the book that God really sent down to us", in which case are you not indirectly condemning your own conversion to Christianity? I am sure you critically assessed the validity of the Bible before concluding that Christianity was the true religion, did you not?

You may go ahead and apply a critical mind to my holy book. I'm sorry it bothers you so much that God would send a lying spirit to someone that insisted on nothing but lies. God sent this king a prophet to give him direct words from God. And this king did nothing but deride and abuse him....as has been done to almost every one of God's prophets. They were imprisoned and murdered in some cases.

So if God chose to send a lying demon to a king that kept saying "I don't like this prophet, he never says anything nice to me", I don't see anything wrong with that. Since my God cannot lie, he will send a lying demon....and he's going to do it on a scale such as we can't even imagine....as this world continues to reject the truth.

Please answer the questions concisely, Shaneequa.

Here they are again in plain English:

Number 1: When I send somebody to deceive somebody, have I done something morally wrong?

Number 2: When I deceive somebody who wants to be deceived, have I done something morally wrong?

Number 3: What is your justification to judge the Qur'anic Allah, and yet maintain that it is not right to judge the Biblical God? And if it isn't right to judge the Biblical God, how did you become a Christian since you must have critically assessed the Bible before you concluded that Christianity was the correct religion?

The unlived life is not worth examining.
- Shaneequa
- Pub Regular
- I make pancake for you :)
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #264 - May 18, 2009, 10:25 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 10:07 PM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 08:55 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 08:39 PM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 08:18 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 08:11 PM
Answer these questions Shaneequa:

Number 1: If I send somebody to murder someone, have I done anything wrong?

Yes.

So when I send somebody to deceive somebody, I have done something morally wrong, right?

Quote
Quote
Number 2: If somebody wants to be killed, for any reason whatsoever, would I have done anything wrong if I go ahead and kill them?

Yes.

So when I deceive somebody who wants to be deceived, I have done something morally wrong, right?

Quote
Quote
Number 3: Why do you quote the Qur'an and then judge Allah for being a deceiver? The Muslim could just say "you are not God" in the same way you tell me I am not God when I quote the Bible and judge the Biblical God. What do you say to that?

I say that is is between you and God.

What is between me and God? The issue at hand? I don't see how it can be. As far as I understand, this is an issue about why you have judged the Qur'an when you rebuke me for judging the Bible with the not-so-clear statement that "I am not God". How can you justify applying a critical mind to another holy book whilst condemning applying a critical mind to your holy book? What is the principle at work here? It might be "it is wrong to apply a critical mind to a holy book" in which case, why are you doing so against the Qur'an? Or, the principle at work here might be "it is wrong to apply a critical mind to the true holy book, that is, the book that God really sent down to us", in which case are you not indirectly condemning your own conversion to Christianity? I am sure you critically assessed the validity of the Bible before concluding that Christianity was the true religion, did you not?

You may go ahead and apply a critical mind to my holy book. I'm sorry it bothers you so much that God would send a lying spirit to someone that insisted on nothing but lies. God sent this king a prophet to give him direct words from God. And this king did nothing but deride and abuse him....as has been done to almost every one of God's prophets. They were imprisoned and murdered in some cases.

So if God chose to send a lying demon to a king that kept saying "I don't like this prophet, he never says anything nice to me", I don't see anything wrong with that. Since my God cannot lie, he will send a lying demon....and he's going to do it on a scale such as we can't even imagine....as this world continues to reject the truth.

Please answer the questions concisely, Shaneequa.

Here they are again in plain English:

Number 1: When I send somebody to deceive somebody, have I done something morally wrong?

Number 2: When I deceive somebody who wants to be deceived, have I done something morally wrong?

Number 3: What is your justification to judge the Qur'anic Allah, and yet maintain that it is not right to judge the Biblical God? And if it isn't right to judge the Biblical God, how did you become a Christian since you must have critically assessed the Bible before you concluded that Christianity was the correct religion?

Now your are just badgering me. I already answered your questions....and then you throw in a new question as though you asked it before when it is not the question you originally asked. Don't pretend I did not answer the questions you originally asked. To answer your new question, I did critically assess the bible before I came to the conclusion I did. If you do not like my conclusion, you are free to have your own conclusions on life.
- Shaneequa
- Pub Regular
- I make pancake for you :)
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #265 - May 18, 2009, 10:35 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2009, 10:05 PM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 09:41 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2009, 09:29 PM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 07:51 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 16, 2009, 09:16 AM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 16, 2009, 03:06 AM
Quote from: Hassan on May 15, 2009, 09:35 PM
So, how do you know you are not the one being deceived, Shan?

The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

How do you know that wasn't demons deceiving you, Shan?

Demons don't have flesh and bone.

How do you know?

And how do you know they can't make it look as if they do have flesh and bones?

They can possess people...but the person is a demon...but a demoniac. Anyway, at the time Jesus said that a spirit does not have flesh or bones, a spirit did not have flesh nor bones.

At some point, we have to believe somebody. Even if one chooses to believe oneself, that person needs to take it on faith that he, himself is not a lie. No matter what, there is a point that need to take some things on trust. Of anyone that's ever lived, I believe Jesus is the one in whom I may put my full trust.

We don't have to take anything on faith, Shan.

If there is no real evidence for something then we have no reason to believe it. Especially if the claims are strange and far-fetched.

Don't you understand that your decision to take some old book on faith without any real evidence is exactly the same as all the other religions that do the same.

What makes your faith more true than theirs?

Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 09:41 PM
If not, we are all in trouble.

No, Shan.

If the bible is not true and Jesus was not the son of God - no-one is in trouble.

In fact, the world will be a lot better without silly stories of demons and believers and unbelievers and Hell etc...

It's just you and me and other human beings.

Just normal people.

We can be nice to each other.

And leave all that religious bullshit in the trash can where it belongs, Shan.

For now, my answer will be short and incomplete. If God be willing, I will address the rest later...

We all take things on faith....even if these are things based on probability. How many times have you said "I'll see you later"? How do you know you or the other person will even be here later? You take on faith that you are going to be alive tomorrow....and I hope that you will be alive tomorrow and for a very long time....but if you say we don't have to take anything on faith, how about every tome you board an airplane? Do you know your pilot. How do you know he isn't drunk? Or how do you know the airplane mechanics did not forget to tighten a lug-nut?

If we did not take things in faith every day, we'd probably never have the will to even get out of our beds.
- J4m3z
- Ex-Muslim
- طالب الفلسفة
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #266 - May 18, 2009, 10:38 PM

Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 10:25 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 10:07 PM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 08:55 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 08:39 PM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 08:18 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 08:11 PM
Answer these questions Shaneequa:

Number 1: If I send somebody to murder someone, have I done anything wrong?

Yes.

So when I send somebody to deceive somebody, I have done something morally wrong, right?

Quote
Quote
Number 2: If somebody wants to be killed, for any reason whatsoever, would I have done anything wrong if I go ahead and kill them?

Yes.

So when I deceive somebody who wants to be deceived, I have done something morally wrong, right?

Quote
Quote
Number 3: Why do you quote the Qur'an and then judge Allah for being a deceiver? The Muslim could just say "you are not God" in the same way you tell me I am not God when I quote the Bible and judge the Biblical God. What do you say to that?

I say that is is between you and God.

What is between me and God? The issue at hand? I don't see how it can be. As far as I understand, this is an issue about why you have judged the Qur'an when you rebuke me for judging the Bible with the not-so-clear statement that "I am not God". How can you justify applying a critical mind to another holy book whilst condemning applying a critical mind to your holy book? What is the principle at work here? It might be "it is wrong to apply a critical mind to a holy book" in which case, why are you doing so against the Qur'an? Or, the principle at work here might be "it is wrong to apply a critical mind to the true holy book, that is, the book that God really sent down to us", in which case are you not indirectly condemning your own conversion to Christianity? I am sure you critically assessed the validity of the Bible before concluding that Christianity was the true religion, did you not?

You may go ahead and apply a critical mind to my holy book. I'm sorry it bothers you so much that God would send a lying spirit to someone that insisted on nothing but lies. God sent this king a prophet to give him direct words from God. And this king did nothing but deride and abuse him....as has been done to almost every one of God's prophets. They were imprisoned and murdered in some cases.

So if God chose to send a lying demon to a king that kept saying "I don't like this prophet, he never says anything nice to me", I don't see anything wrong with that. Since my God cannot lie, he will send a lying demon....and he's going to do it on a scale such as we can't even imagine....as this world continues to reject the truth.

Please answer the questions concisely, Shaneequa.

Here they are again in plain English:

Number 1: When I send somebody to deceive somebody, have I done something morally wrong?

Number 2: When I deceive somebody who wants to be deceived, have I done something morally wrong?

Number 3: What is your justification to judge the Qur'anic Allah, and yet maintain that it is not right to judge the Biblical God? And if it isn't right to judge the Biblical God, how did you become a Christian since you must have critically assessed the Bible before you concluded that Christianity was the correct religion?

Now your are just badgering me. I already answered your questions....and then you throw in a new question as though you asked it before when it is not the question you originally asked. Don't pretend I did not answer the questions you originally asked. To answer your new question, I did critically assess the bible before I came to the conclusion I did. If you do not like my conclusion, you are free to have your own conclusions on life.

Were you expecting a half-hearted debate that only went half-way?

Now why do you persist? Can you answer the questions please. They arn't even difficult questions.

The unlived life is not worth examining.
- Shaneequa
- Pub Regular
- I make pancake for you :)
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #267 - May 18, 2009, 10:45 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 10:38 PM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 10:25 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 10:07 PM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 08:55 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 08:39 PM
Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 08:18 PM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 18, 2009, 08:11 PM
Answer these questions Shaneequa:

Number 1: If I send somebody to murder someone, have I done anything wrong?

Yes.

So when I send somebody to deceive somebody, I have done something morally wrong, right?

Quote
Quote
Number 2: If somebody wants to be killed, for any reason whatsoever, would I have done anything wrong if I go ahead and kill them?

Yes.

So when I deceive somebody who wants to be deceived, I have done something morally wrong, right?

Quote
Quote
Number 3: Why do you quote the Qur'an and then judge Allah for being a deceiver? The Muslim could just say "you are not God" in the same way you tell me I am not God when I quote the Bible and judge the Biblical God. What do you say to that?

I say that is is between you and God.

What is between me and God? The issue at hand? I don't see how it can be. As far as I understand, this is an issue about why you have judged the Qur'an when you rebuke me for judging the Bible with the not-so-clear statement that "I am not God". How can you justify applying a critical mind to another holy book whilst condemning applying a critical mind to your holy book? What is the principle at work here? It might be "it is wrong to apply a critical mind to a holy book" in which case, why are you doing so against the Qur'an? Or, the principle at work here might be "it is wrong to apply a critical mind to the true holy book, that is, the book that God really sent down to us", in which case are you not indirectly condemning your own conversion to Christianity? I am sure you critically assessed the validity of the Bible before concluding that Christianity was the true religion, did you not?

You may go ahead and apply a critical mind to my holy book. I'm sorry it bothers you so much that God would send a lying spirit to someone that insisted on nothing but lies. God sent this king a prophet to give him direct words from God. And this king did nothing but deride and abuse him....as has been done to almost every one of God's prophets. They were imprisoned and murdered in some cases.

So if God chose to send a lying demon to a king that kept saying "I don't like this prophet, he never says anything nice to me", I don't see anything wrong with that. Since my God cannot lie, he will send a lying demon....and he's going to do it on a scale such as we can't even imagine....as this world continues to reject the truth.

Please answer the questions concisely, Shaneequa.

Here they are again in plain English:

Number 1: When I send somebody to deceive somebody, have I done something morally wrong?

Number 2: When I deceive somebody who wants to be deceived, have I done something morally wrong?

Number 3: What is your justification to judge the Qur'anic Allah, and yet maintain that it is not right to judge the Biblical God? And if it isn't right to judge the Biblical God, how did you become a Christian since you must have critically assessed the Bible before you concluded that Christianity was the correct religion?

Now your are just badgering me. I already answered your questions....and then you throw in a new question as though you asked it before when it is not the question you originally asked. Don't pretend I did not answer the questions you originally asked. To answer your new question, I did critically assess the bible before I came to the conclusion I did. If you do not like my conclusion, you are free to have your own conclusions on life.

Were you expecting a half-hearted debate that only went half-way?

Now why do you persist? Can you answer the questions please. They arn't even difficult questions.

Asked and answered. I'm done talking to you.

You are dismissed.
- J4m3z
- Ex-Muslim
- طالب الفلسفة
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #268 - May 18, 2009, 11:10 PM

What a fine politician you would make, Shaneequa.

I just had to post this video. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCo7qbzEX3c

The unlived life is not worth examining.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Absurd Doubts
Reply #269 - May 19, 2009, 06:53 AM

Quote from: Shaneequa on May 18, 2009, 10:35 PM
For now, my answer will be short and incomplete. If God be willing, I will address the rest later...

We all take things on faith....even if these are things based on probability. How many times have you said "I'll see you later"? How do you know you or the other person will even be here later? You take on faith that you are going to be alive tomorrow....and I hope that you will be alive tomorrow and for a very long time....but if you say we don't have to take anything on faith, how about every tome you board an airplane? Do you know your pilot. How do you know he isn't drunk? Or how do you know the airplane mechanics did not forget to tighten a lug-nut?

If we did not take things in faith every day, we'd probably never have the will to even get out of our beds.

Hoping that you will be alive tomorrow or trusting the pilot of a plane are quite different from basing one's whole life on some imaginary commands from some imaginary God who people claim has spoken in an old book.

We know that planes do fly and that pilots are trained and that bodies need sleep and then wake up in the morning. These things are part of the known world we live in. They are processes we are aware of and can explain.

Putting one's faith in a God we have no proof of, and in creeds that are nonsensical, illogical, unjust and sadistically cruel is quite different.

It astonishes me that anyone can equate getting on a plane with belief in Christianity (or Islam...). You seriously need to re-evaluate the reasons you believe in religion, Shan.

And of course the question remains; why take one old book of nonsense on faith - over another - on faith?
Previous page 1 ... 7 8 910 11 ... 13 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »