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 Topic: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)

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  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #30 - May 11, 2009, 02:41 PM
    You promised to take me to the hot place.

    We might be convinced otherwise once we get there.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #31 - May 11, 2009, 02:42 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 02:41 PM
    You promised to take me to the hot place.

    We might be convinced once we get there.




    I said I'd rip you to pieces, I wouldn't take you the hot place though, you don't deserve to be included in all the fun we plan to have.  cool2
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #32 - May 11, 2009, 02:43 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 02:36 PM
    Cheetah can be so sunny sometimes.

    Thats why I like the animal.

    Quote from: Glen on May 11, 2009, 02:27 PM
    If it holds that Hell is subjective and those who deseve to go there is a matter of personal opinion, then so too must be the same for heaven, and who deserves to go there.

    If something is so subjective, so that any meaning can be bent to its cause, it doesnt really mean anything at all does it?


    Good attempt there Glen.

    You show an ability to reason.

    You would be right, if, as you rightly said: "if" Hell itself was subjective.

    However,

    Hell is not subjective.

    But who actually deserves to go there and for how long is.

    That is what we are discussing.

    Can I request you guys not to aid Hassan.

    The boy has shown promise to take care of himself.

    Allow him to win the battle by himself.

    He seems a good sport.




    lol ok smarty pants just replace my reasoning with 'who goes there' instead and voila!!! lol who goes to hell and heaven are subjective concepts (and actually you might find hell and heaven are subjective, out of this little thread discussion...) that are so far apart in different peoples views that you cant define who goes where in a concrete way,

    all i know is ill see you in hell.... finmad Smiley

    lol
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #33 - May 11, 2009, 02:48 PM
    Thank you Glen.

    You are a smart man.
    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #34 - May 11, 2009, 03:02 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 02:15 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 11, 2009, 02:12 PM
    Rayback, I must have missed it, but what religion do you believe in?


    Hell. 




    What religion do you believe in?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #35 - May 11, 2009, 03:03 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 01:47 PM
    I totally agree. It would be cruel to burn an innocent person


    Then God is cruel, because (as you agreed) belief is subjective, there is no undeniable objective proof that God exists and Islam is true - so those who look at the evidence and come to the conclusion there is no God are innocent of any crime.

    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 01:47 PM
    Hell is only for those who are at fault.


    What are they at fault for?


    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 01:47 PM
    Hassan Said: "There is no undeniable evidence of God and there is no undeniable evidence Islam is true."

    Hassan. Please dont go all over the place. Read the title of your own thread.


    Sorry my friend, but you can't avoid this question as it is CENTRAL to the argument over whether Hell can be called in any way Just.

    If there is no undeniable evidence for God or Islam then no-one can be blamed for not believing in God or Islam.

    Therefore God's punishment is unjust.

    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 01:47 PM
    Hassan said: "Therefore an unbeliever cannot be blamed for not believing."

    Unless he deliberately closed his eyes to the truth.


    Are you saying that the unbeliever really knows that Islam is true, but pretends he doesn't believe it?

    And as I asked you before (but you keep avoiding) are you saying that an unbeliever deliberately chooses to be tortured for eternity in Hell rather than enjoying an eternity of bliss?

    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 01:47 PM
    Hassan said: "An infinite torture for a finite "crime" is bad enough (even if they were rapists, mass murderers etc...) But  infinite torture for not believing in something that is not undeniably clear is excessive."

    I agree with you.

    A just God would not burn anyone for simply not having believed in their life on Earth.


    That's not what the Qur'an says.

    The Qur'an clearley says that those who don't believe will be burnt in Hell.

    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 01:47 PM
    Most intelligent people, including reasonable Atheists, do not say it is excessive. They say its fair for certain nasty people.


    LOL... enough with these claims! Even if it was relevant, (which it is NOT, since what most people say is not proof that it is true.) unless you can show me actual evidence of what most people say then your claims are meaningless.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #36 - May 11, 2009, 03:24 PM
    Quote from: hassan
    Sorry my friend, but you can't avoid this question as it is CENTRAL to the argument over whether Hell can be called in any way Just.

    If there is no undeniable evidence for God or Islam then no-one can be blamed for not believing in God or Islam.

    Therefore God's punishment is unjust.


    Reply:

    Hassan, make up your mind, are we discussing your chosen subject or not?

    Read the title of your own thread again to help you remember what the topic is.

    Quote from: hassan

    Are you saying that the unbeliever really knows that Islam is true, but pretends he doesn't believe it?

    And as I asked you before (but you keep avoiding) are you saying that an unbeliever deliberately chooses to be tortured for eternity in Hell rather than enjoying an eternity of bliss?


    Reply:

    Please. Do bother to read the replies properly. 

    I did say that it would indeed be unfair to burn anyone simply for not believing in something.

    Quote from: hassan

    That's not what the Qur'an says.

    The Qur'an clearley says that those who don't believe will be burnt in Hell.


    Reply:

    I would say that you didnt read the book properly. There is your problem.

    I suggest you take those shades off when reading any book, let alone the very words of God.

    It is the shades that will take you to Hell.

    They can only protect you from the sun for a while.

     Wink

    Quote from: hassan

    LOL... enough with these claims! Even if it was relevant, (which it is NOT, since what most people say is not proof that it is true.)

    unless you can show me actual evidence of what most people say then your claims are meaningless.


    Reply:

    You say what most people say is not proof; and yet you want evidence of what most people say?

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #37 - May 11, 2009, 03:28 PM
    I fixed your quotes, the way you laid it out is confusing.

    Use the quote feature, or type out:

    [quote] your text in the middle [/quote]
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #38 - May 11, 2009, 03:34 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 11, 2009, 03:02 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 02:15 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 11, 2009, 02:12 PM
    Rayback, I must have missed it, but what religion do you believe in?

    Hell. 

    What religion do you believe in?

    Does anyone know why he is avoiding answering this question, or at least tell me what religion he believes in as he wont tell me himself?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #39 - May 11, 2009, 03:36 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 11, 2009, 03:34 PM

    Does anyone know why he is avoiding answering this question, or at least tell me what religion he believes in as he wont tell me himself?


    Because he's a troll, which means he won't answer any question in a direct manner, no matter what the question.  Part of the definition of a troll.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #40 - May 11, 2009, 03:38 PM
    Islame boy:

    Cant you take a hint.

    I have answered your question.

    You just dont accept the answer.

    Its a hell of a religion.


    Quote from: BerberElla on May 11, 2009, 03:28 PM

    I fixed your quotes, the way you laid it out is confusing.



    Thanks. You are too kind.

    But, dont you be fixing other things of mine.

    You are a dangerous woman.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #41 - May 11, 2009, 03:42 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 03:38 PM
    Cant you take a hint.

    I have answered your question.

    You just dont accept the answer.

    Its a hell of a religion.


    Quote from: BerberElla on May 11, 2009, 03:28 PM

    I fixed your quotes, the way you laid it out is confusing.



    Thanks.

    Dont you be fixing other things of mine.

    You are a dangerous woman.




    I dont understand why you are avoiding answering this simple question.  If you are embarrassed to admit your beliefs, then you should really stop believing in it?

    Let me ask in a different way.  Different people find different religions appealing.  Which one do you find appeals to you the most? 
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #42 - May 11, 2009, 03:47 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 11, 2009, 03:42 PM

    I dont understand why you are avoiding answering this simple question. 

    If you are embarrassed to admit your beliefs, then you should really stop believing in it?

    Let me ask in a different way. 

    Different people find different religions appealing. 

    Which one do you find appeals to you the most? 


    I find Hell very a appealing concept.

    Even more appealing to me are the 73 beautiful virgins lined up on the other side.

    I do not let into my heart anything I am ashamed of.

    I am very proud of my beliefs.

    I love the heavenly ladies; and I praise the Supreme Being who created Hell as a deserving punishment for evil men.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #43 - May 11, 2009, 04:05 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 03:24 PM
    Quote from: hassan
    Sorry my friend, but you can't avoid this question as it is CENTRAL to the argument over whether Hell can be called in any way Just.

    If there is no undeniable evidence for God or Islam then no-one can be blamed for not believing in God or Islam.

    Therefore God's punishment is unjust.


    Reply:

    Hassan, make up your mind, are we discussing your chosen subject or not?

    Read the title of your own thread again to help you remember what the topic is.

    Quote from: hassan

    Are you saying that the unbeliever really knows that Islam is true, but pretends he doesn't believe it?

    And as I asked you before (but you keep avoiding) are you saying that an unbeliever deliberately chooses to be tortured for eternity in Hell rather than enjoying an eternity of bliss?


    Reply:

    Please. Do bother to read the replies properly. 

    I did say that it would indeed be unfair to burn anyone simply for not believing in something.

    Quote from: hassan

    That's not what the Qur'an says.

    The Qur'an clearley says that those who don't believe will be burnt in Hell.


    Reply:

    I would say that you didnt read the book properly. There is your problem.

    I suggest you take those shades off when reading any book, let alone the very words of God.

    It is the shades that will take you to Hell.

    They can only protect you from the sun for a while.

     Wink

    Quote from: hassan

    LOL... enough with these claims! Even if it was relevant, (which it is NOT, since what most people say is not proof that it is true.)

    unless you can show me actual evidence of what most people say then your claims are meaningless.


    Reply:

    You say what most people say is not proof; and yet you want evidence of what most people say?




    OK, Rayback, I'm getting the impression you are playing a game with me.

    But I will try again - I will only ask you 2 questions - I would really appreciate a clear and direct answer. You said:

    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 01:47 PM
    Hell is only for those who are at fault...

    ...he deliberately closed his eyes to the truth.


    1. Are you saying that the unbeliever believes that Islam is true, but deliberately pretends he doesn't believe it?

    2. Are you saying that an unbeliever deliberately chooses to be tortured for eternity in Hell rather than enjoying an eternity of bliss?
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #44 - May 11, 2009, 05:03 PM
    You're wasting your time, Hassan.
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #45 - May 11, 2009, 05:08 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on May 11, 2009, 05:03 PM
    You're wasting your time, Hassan.


    I agree.

    Hassan, just let it go. He's a troll mate.
    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #46 - May 11, 2009, 05:09 PM
    Yep - got it now - I can be a bit slow sometimes lol
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #47 - May 11, 2009, 05:42 PM
    Hypothesis 1) Any crime a human can commit is finite in nature.
    Hypothesis 2) Eternity in Hell is an infinite punishment.
    Hypothesis 3) A person "X" believes that Hell is a just punishment for a particular crime "Y".
    Hypothesis 4) Just punishments are proportional to the entity of their relative crimes.

    Thesis: Such person also believes that Hell is a just punishment for any crime.


    Demonstration:

    The proportion "punishment / crime" for crime Y is infinite.
    X believes that such proportion is just.
    The proportion "punishment / crime" for ANY crime Z is infinite.
    So it's equal to that of time Y.
    So Hell must be an appropriate punishment for any crime

    Edited cause I forgot to type the important hypothesis 4
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #48 - May 11, 2009, 06:59 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 03:47 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 11, 2009, 03:42 PM

    I dont understand why you are avoiding answering this simple question. 

    If you are embarrassed to admit your beliefs, then you should really stop believing in it?

    Let me ask in a different way. 

    Different people find different religions appealing. 

    Which one do you find appeals to you the most? 


    I find Hell very a appealing concept.

    Even more appealing to me are the 73 beautiful virgins lined up on the other side.

    I do not let into my heart anything I am ashamed of.

    I am very proud of my beliefs.

    I love the heavenly ladies; and I praise the Supreme Being who created Hell as a deserving punishment for evil men.




    Dimwit, hell is not a religion.  Religion is something like Christianity, Hindusism, Islam, Buddhism etc
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #49 - May 11, 2009, 07:35 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 11, 2009, 03:34 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 11, 2009, 03:02 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 02:15 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 11, 2009, 02:12 PM
    Rayback, I must have missed it, but what religion do you believe in?

    Hell. 

    What religion do you believe in?

    Does anyone know why he is avoiding answering this question, or at least tell me what religion he believes in as he wont tell me himself?

    I know why, it is because your question islame, is the type of question the troll would ask from Red-Riding Hood:
    "Where are you going"
    "What do you have in your lunchbox"
    etc..

    Anyways, this thread is unofficially between hassan and the bumblebee nahool. Let's step back and give them some space.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #50 - May 12, 2009, 11:09 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 11, 2009, 04:05 PM
    OK, Rayback, I'm getting the impression you are playing a game with me.


    Dont you think we need to clear that before we carry on.
    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #51 - May 12, 2009, 11:14 AM
    Oh bugger that for a joke. Do you have any decent pancake recipes? This is important. parrot
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #52 - May 12, 2009, 11:36 AM
    Does hell have pancakes? If it's just then it needs pancakes!
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #53 - May 12, 2009, 11:38 AM
    Allah should have used the pancake instead of the carrot and stick approach.

    I'd be a believer if there were pancakes.  Cry
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #54 - May 12, 2009, 11:39 AM
    Hang on though, would it really be hell if it had pancakes? Unless they were really gruesome and rubbery ones or something.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #55 - May 12, 2009, 11:39 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on May 12, 2009, 11:39 AM
    Hang on though, would it really be hell if it had pancakes? Unless they were really gruesome and rubbery ones or something.

    It has pancakes made by burbles Cheesy
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #56 - May 12, 2009, 11:42 AM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on May 12, 2009, 11:39 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on May 12, 2009, 11:39 AM
    Hang on though, would it really be hell if it had pancakes? Unless they were really gruesome and rubbery ones or something.

    It has pancakes made by burbles Cheesy


     Cheesy

    The ideal god would be a giant pancake...I'd worship it for sure. It would be real seductive too...with the maple syrup running over it's body...

    Me thinks I'm going to form a new religion. Pancakism.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #57 - May 12, 2009, 11:42 AM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on May 12, 2009, 11:39 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on May 12, 2009, 11:39 AM
    Hang on though, would it really be hell if it had pancakes? Unless they were really gruesome and rubbery ones or something.

    It has pancakes made by burbles Cheesy


    I thought it was the baked spuds she cocked up, not the pancakes.   Huh?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #58 - May 12, 2009, 11:44 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on May 12, 2009, 11:42 AM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on May 12, 2009, 11:39 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on May 12, 2009, 11:39 AM
    Hang on though, would it really be hell if it had pancakes? Unless they were really gruesome and rubbery ones or something.

    It has pancakes made by burbles Cheesy


    I thought it was the baked spuds she cocked up, not the pancakes.   Huh?

    She'll probably cock up everything if she cant cook spuds Cheesy Tongue
    Quote from: heartbomb on May 12, 2009, 11:42 AM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on May 12, 2009, 11:39 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on May 12, 2009, 11:39 AM
    Hang on though, would it really be hell if it had pancakes? Unless they were really gruesome and rubbery ones or something.

    It has pancakes made by burbles Cheesy


     Cheesy

    The ideal god would be a giant pancake...I'd worship it for sure. It would be real seductive too...with the maple syrup running over it's body...

    Me thinks I'm going to form a new religion. Pancakism.

    I'll be first to register! All hail the omnitasty pancake!

    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #59 - May 12, 2009, 11:45 AM
    Peruvian, if you start worshipping pancakes, the FSM will be after you with His Noodly Appendages.  Cry
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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