BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #60 - June 04, 2009, 01:33 AM

Quote from: Frollo on June 03, 2009, 09:29 PM
What the hell does this have to do with non-consensual welfare?

You said nobody should be living off other people's welfare. So you don't believe in taxes.

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #61 - June 04, 2009, 05:01 AM

Quote from: J4m3z on June 04, 2009, 01:33 AM
You said nobody should be living off other people's welfare. So you don't believe in taxes.

I'm against welfare when it comes from the state through taxation (because you have no say in the matter). I have nothing against charity or private welfare societies similar to ones found in 18th and 19th centruy Britain.
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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #62 - June 04, 2009, 09:16 AM

Quote from: aife on June 03, 2009, 12:29 AM
It's questionable how much useful information has really come from animal testing - at the very least there ought to be a law ordering the sharing of any such research , rather than different drug companies replicating tests . Stem cell research and computer modelling should eliminate the need for animal tests

This is simply false. I am a biologist, and like any other biologist I can verify that using animals in experiments is an integral part of biological sciences. We have to use in vivo models in our studies. Stem cell technology is incomplete, and even when it's sophisticated enough, we will still need animal models for a long period of time. Stem cells cannot create all differentiated systems. Stem cell technology is not the panacea that some people think it is. Computer technology is useful for crystallography and visualising proteins, but it is also insufficient. Then again, most of the animals used in experiments are simple organisms who cannot perceive pain.

As for genetical modification, this is the future of intelligent life. The Greens and similar reactionary groups should get used to this fact. Like any other reactionary group, the Greens exploit the baseless fears of the populace to further their aims.

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #63 - June 04, 2009, 09:31 AM

Quote from: Zaephon on June 04, 2009, 09:16 AM
This is simply false. I am a biologist, and like any other biologist I can verify that using animals in experiments is an integral part of biological sciences. We have to use in vivo models in our studies. Stem cell technology is incomplete, and even when it's sophisticated enough, we will still need animal models for a long period of time. Stem cells cannot create all differentiated systems. Stem cell technology is not the panacea that some people think it is. Computer technology is useful for crystallography and visualising proteins, but it is also insufficient. Then again, most of the animals used in experiments are simple organisms who cannot perceive pain.

As for genetical modification, this is the future of intelligent life. The Greens and similar reactionary groups should get used to this fact. Like any other reactionary group, the Greens exploit the baseless fears of the populace to further their aims.

Which animals are they?

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #64 - June 04, 2009, 09:53 AM

Quote from: Frollo on June 04, 2009, 05:01 AM
I'm against welfare when it comes from the state through taxation (because you have no say in the matter). I have nothing against charity or private welfare societies similar to ones found in 18th and 19th centruy Britain.

So you do believe in free-trade laissez faire capitalism?

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #65 - June 04, 2009, 04:29 PM

Quote from: PeruvianSkies
Which animals are they?

The most common lab animals are fruit flies, nematodes, and fish. Mice/rats are the only organisms that are experimented upon en masse and that can suffer. More advanced life forms are subject to fewer and less painful experiments. Also, the number of advanced animals used in scientific experiments is very small compared to the number of advanced animals used in agriculture and stock-breeding. And finally, there are already ethical limitations for every experiment concerning animals. Forget all stereotypes about evil, heartless scientists who torture animals for fun and profit.

Imposing restrictions on scientific progress due to animal rights concerns doesn't make much sense, apart from being reactionary. There is very little difference between the stance of the Republicans and the Greens in this regard, who want to suppress stem cell research and animal-based experiments respectively.

One more thing eco-radicals often forget is that animals in the wild don't have very happy lives, either. They get eaten, they suffer from extreme heat or cold, they have to watch their offspring die, they suffer diseases, etc. People don't like to admit this possibility, but a rat living in a cage may be much more happier than a rat trying to survive in a natural environment.

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #66 - June 04, 2009, 11:08 PM

Zaephon , I'm disappointed in you . My life's pretty miserable at the moment , perhaps they should put me in prison and saw my head open...
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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #67 - June 04, 2009, 11:27 PM

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EPF/is_17_102/ai_97172741/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6911678.stm

http://www.aboutanimaltesting.co.uk/cats-dogs-used-for-testing.html

I'm not convinced by the need for animal testing at all , but at the very least surely no reasonable person would disagree that the number could be cut down ? The fact is that a lot of the medical research being done is not aimed at finding a cure for cancer , but on developing new variants on existing treatments in lucrative fields like anti - depressants , analgesics and ulcer treatments . We have plenty of these drugs already , the need for new ones is not urgent enough to justify the suffering inflicted
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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #68 - June 04, 2009, 11:43 PM

The question is, do animals actually have any rights?

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #69 - June 04, 2009, 11:49 PM

I don't know about 'rights' , I personally am not a member of any militant animal groups , I just think that as a higher species we should not go round inflicting pain and suffering on sentient creatures unnecessarily
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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #70 - June 05, 2009, 08:09 AM

Quote from: aife on June 04, 2009, 11:08 PM
Zaephon , I'm disappointed in you . My life's pretty miserable at the moment , perhaps they should put me in prison and saw my head open...

Well, I am not really disappointed at you, since I do not expect you to know the scientific community intimately. Aife, you don't have to live with the constant fear of getting caught and eaten. You don't have to struggle with diseases, and you don't have to constantly look for food, often at the brink of starvation. (I assume?) Very few (if any) experiments include "sawing open" the head of an animal. If disection is required, the animal is obviously killed first. Vivisection is a rare event. In the bNet article, there is no proof that vivisection without anaesthetics occurred, which would be a violation of scientific ethos at any rate.

Once again, the number of animals that suffer at all in any scientific facility is much smaller than the number of animals suffering outside the realm of science. Very few experiments inflict any kind of excruciating, prolonged suffering on an animal. Environmentalists don't like to see the other side of the medallion.

Quote from: aife
I'm not convinced by the need for animal testing at all

See my post above. Animals testing is an integral part of biological sciences.

Quote from: aife
The fact is that a lot of the medical research being done is not aimed at finding a cure for cancer , but on developing new variants on existing treatments in lucrative fields like anti - depressants , analgesics and ulcer treatments . We have plenty of these drugs already , the need for new ones is not urgent enough to justify the suffering inflicted

So, the only disease that needs in vivo models to develop a cure for is cancer? That is news to me. Nothing is lucrative in pharmocology. If existent drugs were not lacking in some aspect, there would be no need to develop an alternative.

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #71 - June 05, 2009, 09:34 AM

Quote from: Zaephon on June 05, 2009, 08:09 AM
Well, I am not really disappointed at you, since I do not expect you to know the scientific community intimately. Aife, you don't have to live with the constant fear of getting caught and eaten. You don't have to struggle with diseases, and you don't have to constantly look for food, often at the brink of starvation. (I assume?) Very few (if any) experiments include "sawing open" the head of an animal. If disection is required, the animal is obviously killed first. Vivisection is a rare event. In the bNet article, there is no proof that vivisection without anaesthetics occurred, which would be a violation of scientific ethos at any rate.

Once again, the number of animals that suffer at all in any scientific facility is much smaller than the number of animals suffering outside the realm of science. Very few experiments inflict any kind of excruciating, prolonged suffering on an animal. Environmentalists don't like to see the other side of the medallion.
See my post above. Animals testing is an integral part of biological sciences.

While I agree animal testing in important I don't agree that living in a cage is better than living life free. The risks are worth it otherwise you may as well advocate that we all confine ourselves to our houses in order to be safe.

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #72 - June 05, 2009, 10:42 AM

Quote from: Zaephon on June 05, 2009, 10:37 AM
With the exception of some intelligent and social animals, I don't think animals can value "freedom" as we do. Also, we don't have to cope with the possibility of getting eaten on the streets. Hyenas devour their victims while they are still alive, that's pretty vicious, isn't it?

Animals like monkeys and pigs would be better off without a cage. And we do have dangers on the streets, perhaps not as bad as animals but even then I hardly think that is a justifiable reason to keep them locked up.

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #73 - June 05, 2009, 10:51 AM

Quote from: PeruvianSkies on June 05, 2009, 10:42 AM
Animals like monkeys and pigs would be better off without a cage. And we do have dangers on the streets, perhaps not as bad as animals but even then I hardly think that is a justifiable reason to keep them locked up.

I am not sure if I was offering a justifiable reason to keep them locked up, just saying that the picture of free animals living happily in the wild is inaccurate. Our notion of freedom doesn't really apply to animals, especially simpler animals like rats.

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #74 - June 05, 2009, 11:10 AM

Quote from: Zaephon on June 05, 2009, 10:37 AM
With the exception of some intelligent and social animals, I don't think animals can value "freedom" as we do.

Couldn't that argument be turned around, saying non-human animals cannot value being free from danger, either? So putting them in a cage does not make them feel free from wild dangers, and putting them in the wild does not make them feel unfree about the dangers they are subject to in the wild.

Either way, if animals do feel scared when they're in the wild, they're probably going to feel scared being locked in a cage too and being subject to all the scientific tests. They don't know that the objective of the scientists is not to kill them. Or maybe after a while they will learn that if the scientists were to kill them they would have done it already. Can rats develop that kind of trust in we big humans?

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #75 - June 05, 2009, 11:29 AM

Quote from: J4m3z
Couldn't that argument be turned around, saying non-human animals cannot value being free from danger, either? So putting them in a cage does not make them feel free from wild dangers, and putting them in the wild does not make them feel unfree about the dangers they are subject to in the wild.

Animals respond to stimuli like pheromones, sound, and light. A rat starts experiencing fear when it hears the screech of an owl. An animal doesn't experience terror unless such stimuli are present. When I mean an animal living in constant fear, I mean an animal who is constantly exposed to such stimuli. Removing such factors from the environment will make animals much less susceptible to fear.

But an animal can understand the difference between danger and freedom from danger. Animals mark their habitats and lairs, where they consider themselves safe, sleeping and raising offspring, etc. Also, are you familiar with the concept of cleaning stations in coral reefs? These are spots where fishes gather to have their external parasites removed, by other fish. Predatory fish suppress their predatory instincts here. Some scientists suggest that such danger-free zones are very popular because of the relative freedom from danger, a break from the constant struggle for survival.

Rats cannot trust humans, but since humans resemble none of their natural predators, they lack the instinctual fear which make them react to owls, cats, etc. A lab rat is much more comfortable near a human being than a cat.

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #76 - June 05, 2009, 11:31 AM

Quote from: Zaephon on June 05, 2009, 11:29 AM

But an animal can understand the difference between danger and freedom from danger. Animals mark their habitats and lairs, where they consider themselves safe, sleeping and raising offspring, etc. Also, are you familiar with the concept of cleaning stations in coral reefs? These are spots where fishes gather to have their external parasites removed, by other fish. Predatory fish suppress their predatory instincts here. Some scientists suggest that such danger-free zones are very popular because of the relative freedom from danger, a break from the constant struggle for survival.

Interesting, i never knew that.

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #77 - June 05, 2009, 12:11 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on June 04, 2009, 09:53 AM
So you do believe in free-trade laissez faire capitalism?

I believe in free markets if thats what your asking.
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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #78 - June 05, 2009, 04:10 PM

Yes, so if it really was irrelevant asking that question then how come I got it right?

It's because you said "Living off the fruits of someone elses labour without concent is neither moral or a necessity for a society to function." Well, when a rich person is taxed and a poor person claims income tax, then what is practically happening is money is going from the rich, which the rich has worked for, and is going to the poor. So that made me thing you must be against the tax system, and if your against the tax system that must mean you believe everybody should keep the wealth that they generate, and if you believe that then you must be a free-trade laissez faire capitalist. That's why I asked the question and you responded that it wasn't relevant and Islame said I only work in extremes. I'm not really working in extremes am I? You just, really are a capitalist, right? I'm just clearing this up here because I'm getting the feeling that either the tone of my post was unclear or I'm really missing something.

So cool, I do have a lot of sympathy for free-trade laissez faire capitalism, but there are few points that I find slightly hard to accept, and I was just wondering if you had a possible reply:

1. I guess what is so attractive about Capitalism is that you reap what you sow, which is a very attractive principle and Capitalism seems to be the economic outcome of that principle when applied nationally. But what do you think of inheritance? I know you could say that you should be at liberty to spend your money how you want, which sounds fair enough, and so inheritance could be seen as you "spending" your money on your heirs, whoever you wish them to be in your will. But doesn't that take away from the principle of "reap what you sow"? The following generations of capitalism will no longer be following such a principle (as much) as the super rich will give birth to kids who will be born rich and the super poor will give birth to kids who are probably destined to be poor for the rest of their lives.

2. What about when big business monopolies occur? They are at liberty to pay their workers peanuts because they won't be able to work anywhere else? So the heads of businesses can sit back and watch the billions pour into their bank accounts whilst the workers work long and hard just to see them manage. Even worse, the heads of businesses could set up a system, that allows the workers to go into debt, and then make them pay interest. This is surely a cruel yet potential scenario in the capitalist world, right? I was thinking a possible response to this would be trade unions which I don't think is necessarily anti-capitalist, in fact I think that as long as trade unions don't receive funding from the government, they can actually be pro-capitalist. But I'm interested in what you think..

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #79 - June 05, 2009, 09:31 PM

Right: I've cleaned up the sniping.

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #80 - June 05, 2009, 10:16 PM

Firstly on freedom - animals may not be able to hold intellectual discussions or deliver rousing Braveheart style speeches on the notion of freedom , but they know the difference , you only have to look at the behaviour of zoo animals , or even a dog or cat that's been cooped up all day to understand that . Risk is a part of life , something all species , us included , have to live with

  I only mentioned cancer specifically because 'what if your gran had cancer ' is a line I've heard used a lot . Of course other diseases are important and treatments can always be improved upon , but I maintain that the current range of medications available for most of the things that ail us are pretty good on the whole and the need for improvement isn't pressing enough to justify vivisection . And allowing experiments so that Glaxo Smith Kline can pinch a bigger market share from Hoffman La Roche is just obscene .

   " nothing is lucrative in pharmacology " -- ?!!!!
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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #81 - June 05, 2009, 11:02 PM

Quote from: aife
" nothing is lucrative in pharmacology " -- ?!!!!

Oh no! I can't believe I said "lucrative." The word I had in mind was "redundant." Sorry.

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #82 - June 05, 2009, 11:15 PM

OK . anyone can make a typo .
But don't you think replicating experiments already carried out by a different company could fairly be described as redundant ?
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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #83 - June 05, 2009, 11:30 PM

Quote from: aife
OK . anyone can make a typo .
But don't you think replicating experiments already carried out by a different company could fairly be described as redundant ?

These companies, more often than not, compete with each other. Are you really suggesting that pharmacological companies should share knowledge with their rivals? That wouldn't work. Also, experiments must be updated and periodically repeated in some cases. Experiment B may discover something important that Experiment A failed to discover.

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #84 - June 05, 2009, 11:38 PM

Yes . I think they should be forced to share the results of animal testing . Like you said , I'm not a biologist , but I'll hazard a guess that there's a bit more to develpoing and marketing a drug than just maltreating rodents . And if these scientists really are doing what they do for the good of humanity then they should be agreeable to information being disseminated so that progress can be made more quickly
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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #85 - June 06, 2009, 12:11 AM

Like Zaephon said - it wouldnt work.

There are an infinite number of experiments that could be carried out, under an infinite set of of control conditions, using an infinite number of drugs. The chance of 2 companies, wanting to carry out the same experiment is remote. In any case, as a scientist, would you be willing to divulge all the experiments you were carrying out? It could give the game away if you were working on a secret medication.

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #86 - June 06, 2009, 12:19 AM

If the argument is that animal experimentation is necessary to prevent human suffering , then the government should order sharing of information . You are basically conceding that the motivation is mostly economic , and profit just isn't a good enough excuse for this kind of suffering
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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #87 - June 06, 2009, 12:27 AM

Quote from: IsLame on June 06, 2009, 12:11 AM
Like Zaephon said - it wouldnt work.

There are an infinite number of experiments that could be carried out, under an infinite set of of control conditions, using an infinite number of drugs. The chance of 2 companies, wanting to carry out the same experiment is remote. In any case, as a scientist, would you be willing to divulge all the experiments you were carrying out? It could give the game away if you were working on a secret medication.

Quote from: aife on June 06, 2009, 12:19 AM
If the argument is that animal experimentation is necessary to prevent human suffering , then the government should order sharing of information . You are basically conceding that the motivation is mostly economic , and profit just isn't a good enough excuse for this kind of suffering

Yes, but without economic incentive, why else would drug companies plough 10% of their profits in R&D for new drugs? Also this was not the only reason I gave in my earlier post.

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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #88 - June 06, 2009, 12:42 AM

Surely research and development of new products is part of any industry
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Re: BNP to benefit from "Expenses" Scandal
Reply #89 - June 06, 2009, 08:37 AM

Quote from: aife on June 06, 2009, 12:42 AM
Surely research and development of new products is part of any industry

Yes?

P.S. I just had a look to see if your introductory post - have you done one?

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