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Theme Changer

 Topic: History

 (Read 12882 times)
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  • Re: History
     Reply #30 - May 22, 2009, 01:58 AM

    never heard of ya.

    Welcome anyway

    Don't know how tight the Jews in Maine are, but I do know a Ben Burk in Portland.

    Bgrin12B

    Do you mean "Burke"?


    yes.

    Bpropellor headB

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: History
     Reply #31 - May 22, 2009, 07:52 AM

    Who's Ben Burke?

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  • Re: History
     Reply #32 - May 22, 2009, 08:48 AM

    Who's Ben Burke?

    A Jew in Maine that Bob and History know, I guess Wink.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: History
     Reply #33 - May 22, 2009, 11:31 AM

    Whoever he is, I'm glad I wasnt given his surname

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  • Re: History
     Reply #34 - May 22, 2009, 11:52 AM


    Can you bullet point what good things you think he achieved apart from abolishing slavery?



    Actually, he didn't abolish slavery.

    didnt he free the slaves?

    Actually that move ended up in increasing the use of slavery. From wiki-
    Quote
    Bernard Lewis writes: "In one of the sad paradoxes of human history, it was the humanitarian reforms brought by Islam that resulted in a vast development of the slave trade inside, and still more outside, the Islamic empire." He notes that the Islamic injunctions against the enslavement of Muslims led to massive importation of slaves from the outside.[78] According to Patrick Manning, Islam by recognizing and codifying the slavery seems to have done more to protect and expand slavery than the reverse.[46]

  • Re: History
     Reply #35 - May 22, 2009, 12:13 PM

    He notes that the Islamic injunctions against the enslavement of Muslims led to massive importation of slaves from the outside


    Was it only Muslim enslavement he was bothered about, as above?

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  • Re: History
     Reply #36 - May 22, 2009, 12:20 PM

    He notes that the Islamic injunctions against the enslavement of Muslims led to massive importation of slaves from the outside


    Was it only Muslim enslavement he was bothered about, as above?

    What do you mean?
  • Re: History
     Reply #37 - May 22, 2009, 12:37 PM

    Did he only want to stop the enslavery of Muslims, or was he bothered about ending it for all races i.e. would he have been quite happy to have a christian slave as a replacement?

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  • Re: History
     Reply #38 - May 22, 2009, 12:53 PM

    Did he only want to stop the enslavery of Muslims, or was he bothered about ending it for all races i.e. would he have been quite happy to have a christian slave as a replacement?

    Oh. I'm pretty sure he only favoured the muslims in this regard. Polytheists and idolaters were seen as primary sources for slaves though.

    Wiki has a good article on this-
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_slavery
  • Re: History
     Reply #39 - May 22, 2009, 06:34 PM

    Hi, Islame,
    Thank you for your post.
    Quotes such as these:

    "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." Sura (5:51) -

    Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it.  (Book 026, Number 5389)

    "As you can clearly see the Jews are cursed, till the end of time, Allah tried to help them?:Surah V Ayat 70


    What do you have to say about Islam's attitudes towards Jews - do you accept them for what they are (imo racist) or something else? 

    As you note above, there is much that is unkind, unpleasant, and untrue stated about Jews in the Quran--when generalized.  I personally view these as human corruptions of the text (a bit more obvious than the remainder-- for, as a Jew, I beleive the Quran is a work of Man not G-d).  Not all statements in the Quran about Jews and other non-Muslims are unkind, self-serving, or unrighteous.  Some are quite universal, inclusive and (well) quite "Jewish" Smiley ... Such as:

    Surely, those who believe and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve. (2:62)

    But if the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) believe and have the fear of God, we will surely put away their sins from them, and will bring them into gardens of delight: and if that they observe the Law and the Evangel, and what hath been sent down to them from their Lord, they shall surely have their fill of good things from above them and from beneath their feet". (5:70 )
    Quote
    Can you bullet point what good things you think he achieved apart from freeing the slaves?

    No.  But I'll give you my overview.
    He spread ethical monotheism among the pagan Arabs and its teachings that emphasized, in some cases codified, righteousness as the model for correct human behavior and the hope for a better tomorrow.  Recall that the ancients had predominately a cyclical view of time--where nothing changed and that your position and that of your descendents was fixed.   With acceptance of a linear view of time, per Scripture, one is not fated but possesses a G-d-given ability to improve one's lot, one's position is not determined by birth but by choice--specifically by choosing to live ethically and righteously per His Teachings.  Though filtered through later Christianity and by Mohammed himself for the specific circumstances he perceived prevalent among his fellow Arabs, the same core ethical principles I recognize in my Jewish faith are reflected in Islam--and, compared to the closed time might-is-right world view of the ancients, I believe the spread of this idea through the pagan Arab world was a good thing.

    Your question is a good one for me--for I have never been directly called upon to defend Mohammed, the Quran, or Islam.  As a Jew, and a student of history and current events, it is so easy to "bullet" what I find wrong with Mohammed, the Quran, Islam, and Muslims.  It is also good to hoestly reasses and find good as well.
    Quote
    Do you appreciate why 2 out 3 reasons you gave bear little relevence to whether God exists - just because it provides a greater meaning and purpose to your life, bears little relevence to the question that he exists, or takes the form that you believe to be true?  I am not trying to convert you, just trying to get to the backbone behind your belief.

    This just suggests to me you simply do not share my appreciation that G-d's Teachings for ethical human behavior are relevant as proof of G-d's existance--and vice versa.
    The lack of moral relativity and moral ambiguity under G-d, for me, is what makes belief in His existence a better worldview than disbelief.
    However, I am not trying to convert you.  Wink
    [qupte]
    Do you believe in Darwins interpretation of evolution. [/quote]
    Yes.
    Quote
    Do you ever wonder which religion you would have followed had your parents not been Jewish? 

    No.
    I am more observant than my parents.
    Quote
    Its a hypothetical question, but had your parents been Muslim what would you believe now?

    Hypothetically, I do not know.  But as my parents were not very religious and in my 5 decades I have studied and experienced all the world's major religions and philosophies, I believe I would still have found Judaism speaks more true to me.
    Hypothetically speaking.
    Quote
    What's G-d?

    It is a traditional, mosly Orthodox, spelling of the Holy Name on impermanent media.  In Judaism, G-d's Name is Holy and requires the utmost repsect.  It is never used carelessly. 

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: History
     Reply #40 - May 23, 2009, 01:57 PM

    He notes that the Islamic injunctions against the enslavement of Muslims led to massive importation of slaves from the outside


    Was it only Muslim enslavement he was bothered about, as above?


    I'm not aware of any specific injunction that banned Muslim slaves. (I'd be interested to see some if anyone has any quotes.) As far as I know, slaves were allowed - full stop - regardless of their religion.

  • Re: History
     Reply #41 - May 23, 2009, 03:22 PM

    Welcome History!  Smiley

    Do you ever wonder which religion you would have followed had your parents not been Jewish?  No.
    I am more observant than my parents.
    Quote
    Its a hypothetical question, but had your parents been Muslim what would you believe now?

    Hypothetically, I do not know.  But as my parents were not very religious and in my 5 decades I have studied and experienced all the world's major religions and philosophies, I believe I would still have found Judaism speaks more true to me.
    Hypothetically speaking.


    If you don't mind me asking this, are you an Orthodox Jew? Or are you Reform or Conservative?

    Were your parents Orthodox Jews? Actually, from what I know, Orthodox Jews are in general religious, while Reform & Conservative Jews might not be very observant.

    Are you a Baal Tshuva?

    Of course, you needn't answer my questions if you feel that they invade your privacy.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: History
     Reply #42 - May 23, 2009, 06:34 PM

    Dear Rashna,
    Thank you for your post.
    If you don't mind me asking this, are you an Orthodox Jew? Or are you Reform or Conservative?

    Yes.  Smiley

    I was educated in a Conservative Temple with a Reconstructionist Rabbi and Orthodox teachers.  I've taught in a Reform synagogue and attended services and holiday services with Chassids.

    Unlike other faiths, the differences between denominations ism in my experience, comparatively minor.  we are all Jews.
    Quote
    Were your parents Orthodox Jews? Actually, from what I know, Orthodox Jews are in general religious, while Reform & Conservative Jews might not be very observant.

    My life experience is that all Jewish denominations have members who are more observant as well as those who are less.  It is only the method of observances which may vary,
    Quote
    Are you a Baal Tshuva?

    We are all Ba'al Tshuva.
    But, I suspect you mean the halakhic (Jewish legal) definition.  If so, then "No."  I have always been a Jew, only the degree of kavannah in observance has deepened.
    Quote
    Of course, you needn't answer my questions if you feel that they invade your privacy.

    No problem.  I am open about my faith--but, I hope, not obnoxious about it.

    Many blessings.

    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: History
     Reply #43 - May 23, 2009, 06:43 PM

     thnkyu for your nice answers History! I'm no expert on Judaism & its denominations, but from my limited knowledge, I had thought that different denominations have significantly different degrees of belief & observance. For instance, the Ultra Orthodox & even Orthodox have many rules on dress & so on & would hate inter faith marriages, while Reform are cool about it & Reform also allows homosexuality & disbelief in G-d.

    I'd be glad if you would correct me if I'm mistaken.  Smiley

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: History
     Reply #44 - May 24, 2009, 01:06 PM

    Rashna,
    My understanding is similar to yours about different denominations of Judaism. I have read one joke about it.

    Quote
    At an Orthodox wedding, the bride's mother is pregnant. At a Conservative wedding, the bride is pregnant. At a Reform wedding, the rabbi is pregnant. At a Reconstructionist wedding, the rabbi and her wife are both pregnant.


    History, sorry if the joke offend you. If so, I will take care not to something like this next time.
  • Re: History
     Reply #45 - May 24, 2009, 02:49 PM

    thnkyu for your nice answers History! I'm no expert on Judaism & its denominations, but from my limited knowledge, I had thought that different denominations have significantly different degrees of belief & observance. For instance, the Ultra Orthodox & even Orthodox have many rules on dress & so on & would hate inter faith marriages, while Reform are cool about it & Reform also allows homosexuality & disbelief in G-d.

    I'd be glad if you would correct me if I'm mistaken.  Smiley

    Hi, Rahna.
    Thank you for your post.
    [You are well spoken and very insightful and wonderfully curious for a "14" year old, if your Profile is correct].
    Simply:  "rules on dress & son on" are the least of "beliefs" among Jews.  On such minor matters, there is a respectful difference of opinion. 
    On matters central to the Jewish faith (belief in the One G-d, His Torah/Teachings for ethical human behavior, on life-cycle and holiday observances, even our daily liturgy) there is not significant difference.
    When I travel, I find and am welcomed to attend services, be it in a small room in Montego, or a large Temple in Florence, or a restored synagogue in Worms Germany, or a cabin in the woods of northern Maine.  I have found it delightful that, while I may not speak Italian or Russian or whatever, when the service begins it is very familiar, the Hebrew prayers are the same if the tune in which they sung are slightly yet wonderfully different, and I feel at home.

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: History
     Reply #46 - May 24, 2009, 03:32 PM

    I'm not aware of any specific injunction that banned Muslim slaves. (I'd be interested to see some if anyone has any quotes.) As far as I know, slaves were allowed - full stop - regardless of their religion.

    I believe it is a corollary of the fact that slaves are taken from Dar-al-Harb.

    However if a slave converts to Islam, that does not mean that he is freed - so in this way it is possible to have Muslim slaves.
  • Re: History
     Reply #47 - May 24, 2009, 05:32 PM

     thnkyu once again History for your answer & your compliments.  Smiley

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: History
     Reply #48 - May 26, 2009, 08:49 AM



    Welcome  grin12

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: History
     Reply #49 - October 02, 2009, 02:36 PM

    With the bginning of the New Year (per the Jewish calender), I just wanted to extend my well wishes and hope for a happy and healthy one for all of you.

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: History
     Reply #50 - October 02, 2009, 02:36 PM

    And a happy new year to you too, History.   Smiley

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: History
     Reply #51 - October 02, 2009, 03:38 PM

    With the bginning of the New Year (per the Jewish calender), I just wanted to extend my well wishes and hope for a happy and healthy one for all of you.

    Respectfully,
    History


    Shalom

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  • Re: History
     Reply #52 - October 02, 2009, 04:47 PM

    With the bginning of the New Year (per the Jewish calender), I just wanted to extend my well wishes and hope for a happy and healthy one for all of you.

    Respectfully,
    History


    Happy New Year to you, History - I hope you and your family are well Smiley
  • Re: History
     Reply #53 - October 02, 2009, 06:35 PM

    I know it's late, (almost a week after Yom Kippur) but l'shana tova vatikatevu vatikhatemu Smiley

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: History
     Reply #54 - October 02, 2009, 06:50 PM

    Yeah, like Awais said

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  • Re: History
     Reply #55 - October 02, 2009, 07:09 PM

    yeah me 2  grin12

    ...
  • Re: History
     Reply #56 - October 06, 2009, 10:42 PM

    Hi History,

    The Tailor had requested your's an my input on a question about the Law given to Moses. So, I looked around to find out about you. It seems every one  likes you. I hope to enjoy your input on The Tailor's questio.

    Hope you are well.
    Lynna

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: History
     Reply #57 - October 06, 2009, 10:42 PM

    (aka Peace aka cosmicdancer)



    Cosmicdancer?!?!?

     Cheesy

    Hey Jack-- you see this?  Cheesy

    fuck you
  • Re: History
     Reply #58 - October 08, 2009, 06:33 PM

    Thank you all kindly.
    I will try to drop by as time permits.

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: History
     Reply #59 - October 08, 2009, 06:37 PM

    Thank you all kindly.
    I will try to drop by as time permits.

    Respectfully,
    History


    Shalom History - what's your view on Unitarianism? (see the thread I just started) - thanks Smiley
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