Morality or Sense of right & Wrong

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- Omaar Khayaam
- Ex-Muslim
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #60 - October 20, 2009, 02:16 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 19, 2009, 12:08 PM
I see what you mean, but IMO the whole "outside" thing is a bit of a cop out. IOW, they now their assertions don't really solve the problem of infinite regression so they try to declare them out of bounds without any real grounds for doing so.

Even if you do accept that, for the sake of argument, it still says nothing whatsoever about the qualities of any putative deity. It could just as well be Huitzilopochtli as Sweet Baby Jesus. In fact given the state of the world you could make a better argument for the former sometimes.

True, hence the reason why theists, particularly muslims say that reason and philosophy are not sufficient enough reasons to arrive at those things, which is why they rely on "faith", but here again we encounter the same problem, which faith? From all the many claims to absolute certainty there are out there, which is the one that is true? Here again the theist will try to sneak in reason to justify the religious view they hold. So what you get in effect is that reason and philosophy are not sufficient enough regarding the existence of God, so we'll sneak in the Quran or whatever and try to use reason to see why this world view beats the biblical worldview, likewise the Christians do the same. As if that wasn't enough, there is then the daunting task of which is the correct sect!

Saying that though, I have heard muslims who have said in all honesty that their faith in reality relies on the word of Mohammad. They are basically trusting this chap. You know, there is someone from the 7th century who is claiming to be a Prophet and receives revelation. We place our trust in him. That's the bottom line from what they have said.
- Omaar Khayaam
- Ex-Muslim
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #61 - October 20, 2009, 03:21 PM

I have always taken an interest in ethics and morality even when I was a muslim. Except that it was slightly easier because you were given something that you thought was true and took your ethics and morals from those teachings. Now though the situation is slightly different. Nevertheless I have always held that whatever your belief or ethical syatem is, always be consistent and coherent with it. I have seen that ethics are situational, but if you are say an orthodox sunni muslim then there are certain times where situational ethics and making a moral choice may even violate a central doctrine in your faith.

Take for example Pakistani Muslims who for the sake of a better life in the West might transgress a boundary that will make them apostates according to their teachings. So, there are many people who have a large family of a wife and five kids and the future in Pakistan is looking bleak for them. This family is an orthodox sunni muslim family, now according to the teachings they follow, the Ahmahdi community are considered kaafir and they know it. These people pretend to be Ahmahdi and apply for political asylum in the West on the grounds that they have been persecuted.

Firstly - They have lied to the country that is going to host them and taken advantage of a certain loophole which dictates that nobody should be persecuted on the grounds of their religion.

Secondly - Probably the most important IF they claim to be muslim, is that they have violated and transgressed a central premise in their belief, which is something held in concensus that the Ahmahdi community are kaafir. Doing this under the shariah invalidates your claim to being a muslim and breaks your nikkah.

The first situation is secular and is lying to the host country about being persecuted. The situational ethic here is that you want a better life for your children and decided to lie in order for a greater outcome. Whether it's right or wrong is something that might be considered subjective.

The second scenario is where the situational ethic certainly won't apply, paricularly if you are a believer. There is a bottom line here and the believer knows it. Here the believer has suspended their dependence on Allah in order for some worldly comfort.

I'm not bothered about the metaphysical ramifications of the second problem, what does get on my tits is the hypocrisy and the incoherence of it coupled with how one justifies this in the face of their belief?
- Tlaloc
- Aperture Science Test Subject
- Pub Regular
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #62 - October 20, 2009, 03:21 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 19, 2009, 10:49 AM
Their argument is irrelevant. Sure, without a deity giving orders you can't have an absolute basis for morality. So what? That does absolutely nothing to help prove that such a deity exists. It's a complete red herring and a waste of time. In fact you would have to be idiotic to think it had any relevance to the question of the existence of deities at all.

Even that is arguable.
How does a deity imply absolute morality?

Example: imagine some god appears in front of me and thanks to its godly powers it convinces me that it's actually an omnipotent god. While still leaving me able to decide on my free will (i am also implying free will exists for the sake of this example).
Then let's imagine this god tells me that torturing fellow humans IS morally good.
So what? I can still tell him "no, fuck you god, i still think it's morally bad"
Ultimately, it's always the individual that decides whether the "X is morally good" message is true or false, regardless of its source.

Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
- Tlaloc
- Aperture Science Test Subject
- Pub Regular
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #63 - October 20, 2009, 03:24 PM

Ultimately, people seem to believe in those "absolute moral values" that coincidentally agree with what they already perceived as morally good to begin with.
And those seem to differ from individual to individual, up to a certain degree.

Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
- nesrin
- Ex-Muslim
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #64 - September 30, 2010, 01:16 AM

i hadn't realized it.. but i learned most of what i needed to know in kindergarten.. and not once was god mentioned there..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWIkmlIWwgk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
- TheAnti_Theist
- Ex-Muslim
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Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #65 - December 22, 2012, 08:22 AM

If you look for morality in religion, You will find a distorted version of it. Religious morality doesn't revolve around right/wrong or good/bad but around "SIN" and "Religious Virtues". Religion has programmed believers into thinking morality is moving away from sin and towards virtue. This is not the case. I can't re-write my whole article. But when you find yourself becoming interested, you can easily read it here http://www.the-antitheist.com/if-you-dont-believe-in-a-god-why-not-go-around-killing-people-why-not-rape/

btw, do you think it's moral for a 54 year old man to marry a 6/7 year old girl and consummate the marriage at 9 ? Is it good ? Do you think morality comes from a system that endorses this practice ?

You can easily visit my blog at http://www.the-antitheist.com/
Follow me on twitter https://twitter.com/theAnti_Theist
Facebook http://www.facebook.com/raisoft2020
- Homer
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #66 - December 27, 2012, 08:48 AM

Quote from: panoptic on May 28, 2009, 05:25 PM
I wasn't shocked. I haven't got kids but I know they have sadistic tendencies. I'm just trying to explain away the 'GR'.

What? You completely and utterly misunderstood my story.
The point was as a child I was not fully aware that the cat felt pain from having its tail pulled, I just like the meow sound. After the pain aspect was explained to toddler Homer, he stopped pulling the cats tail.
Kids dont have sadistic tendencies, they are just underdeveloped cognitively, to include an underdeveloped sense of empathy and reason, so dont understand others feelings well.
This is Developmental Psychology 101, or the Basis for Lenny in Of Mice and Men, If you'd prefer.

Quote from: J4m3z on May 28, 2009, 10:54 AM
On the first interpretation, the Golden Rule says:

So which interpretation are you going to go for?

Neither, you're right "golden rule" is an oversimplification.

*ps, sorry it took me 3 years to get back to you

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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