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Theme Changer

 Topic: Safiyya didn't have a turn

 (Read 10009 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Safiyya didn't have a turn
     OP - May 28, 2009, 12:19 PM

    I've just been reading through some of the Muslim hadiths and just came across this one-

    Quote
    Book 008, Number 3455:
    'Ata related that when they were with Ibn 'Abbas (Allah be pleased with them) at the funeral of Maimuna In Sarif, Ibn 'Abbas (Allah be pleased with them) said: This is the wife of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) ; so when you lift her bier, do not shake her or disturb her, but be gentle, for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had nine wives, with eight of whom he shared his time, but to one of them, he did not allot a share. 'Ati said: The one to whom he did not allot a share of time was Safiyya, daughter of Huyayy b. Akhtab.


    I wonder why that was, it doesn't make any sense. Apparently she was quite hot, why marry her and not give her a turn?
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #1 - May 28, 2009, 02:34 PM

    Cuz she's a Jewess and might try to kill him to avenge for her people!  cool2

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #2 - May 28, 2009, 02:40 PM

    Interesting, I wonder what the islamic explanation for this is.  wacko

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #3 - May 28, 2009, 03:28 PM

    Interesting, I wonder what the islamic explanation for this is.  wacko

    I've been doing a google search and cant find any discussion of it Huh?
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #4 - May 28, 2009, 03:50 PM

    Interesting, I wonder what the islamic explanation for this is.  wacko

    I've been doing a google search and cant find any discussion of it Huh?


    Hmmm, strange, she was supposed to be really pretty too as you said & quite hot.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #5 - May 28, 2009, 03:56 PM

    Maybe she didn't want a turn? Maybe she only married him to escape concubinage...
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #6 - May 28, 2009, 04:14 PM

    Maybe she didn't want a turn? Maybe she only married him to escape concubinage...


    These hadith writers!  finmad

    Can't even give the full context or the full story...we're left to figure it out for ourselves... Tongue

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #7 - May 28, 2009, 04:18 PM

    I thought the saffiya story was one of love, she wanted to be a muslim, her father and brothers wouldn't let her, mohammed rode into town and slaughtered them all with his men, mohammed swept lucky saffiya off into his tent and she emerged as his bride the next day, veiled.

    (not that we believe that bullshit anyway) but if this hadith is right, where is the love part to a man not sleeping with his wife?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #8 - May 28, 2009, 04:25 PM

    He probably didn't sleep with her a lot because it was probably a political marriage.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #9 - May 29, 2009, 10:04 AM

    He probably didn't sleep with her a lot because it was probably a political marriage.

    Are you being serious?
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #10 - May 29, 2009, 05:55 PM

    He probably didn't sleep with her a lot because it was probably a political marriage.

    Are you being serious?


    No. Sorry! It is quite hard to be sarcastic when typing! Anyway, I was just making fun of the people who say "Muhammad didn't have so many wives because he was randy. It was because he wanted to create political ties."

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #11 - May 29, 2009, 11:07 PM

    He probably didn't sleep with her a lot because it was probably a political marriage.

    Are you being serious?


    No. Sorry! It is quite hard to be sarcastic when typing! Anyway, I was just making fun of the people who say "Muhammad didn't have so many wives because he was randy. It was because he wanted to create political ties."

    Yes, and this is why Muhammed married his blood niece, to strenghten the relation with her dad, his blood brother. Too bad Mo had to abolish the custom of 'blood brothers' in order to justify marrying his blood-niece.

    According to the customs of the day, a guy would be an uncle to the kids of his bloodbrother, so he would not be allowed to marry them.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #12 - May 29, 2009, 11:52 PM

    You guys always alert me to the really obscure (and for me often most interesting) hadiths!

    If you want a mystical explanation, I can give one, although of course I don't expect you to find it plausible.

    I have some cryptic notes on Safiyya here:
      http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2009/05/04/safiyya/

    The key to my understanding of who she represents is the hadiths in which Muhammed says "your father is Aaron, your uncle is Moses and your husband is the Prophet". This configuration is EXACTLY how Kabbalah describes the Shekhinah, the feminine presence of God (and, as I have mentioned in previous debates here, within our own psyches, the female, creative anima within ourselves, whether male or female). In  all the standard Kabbalic cosmologies, Shekhina is mythopoetically related to be as a daughter of Hod (the receptive nature of God, equated at the human level with Aaron) and Netzach (the providing nature of God, equated at the human level with Moses). Shekhinah must me married with Beauty, Tiferet, the light of Prophecy in order for balance to be achieved in the human soul. Her other name is the Sabbath bride and this cosmic marriage is what orthodox Jews celebrate every Saturday.

    Shekhina is Sakina in Arabic, and both the Quran and Kabbalic sources all understand that this Sakina/Shekhina is what was present (again, mythopoetically) within the ark of the covenant.

    There are a couple of other similar things going on in other hadiths which narrate how Muhammed bought her (for 7 camels, for instance -- again, Shekhina is often said to be equal -- or to "contain" -- the 7 names of God).

    But this Hod-Aaron/Netzach-Moses/Tiferet-Prophecy relationship, for me, intimately binds the Kabbalic understanding with the hadiths surrounding Safiyya.

    The prophet "stole" Safiyya in these hadiths. But, more importantly, what else is being "stolen"? The Kabbalah itself! And more than that, Shekhina itself.

    But the prophet then marries this Safiyya/Shekhina. The theft is transformed into the Cosmic Marriage of orthodox Judaism. So, basically, it's all cool.

    Similar stories of theft of wives occur throughout Torah, and these hadiths are a repetition of those archetypes (see, for example, Bethsheba and David which on the outside looks to be in complete transgression of Jewish law).  

    Regarding then the hadith that he didn't sleep with Safiyya in rotation -- b/c the other wives were slept with, as has been discussed often, in sequence. Why? Because, conceptually, Prophecy was in union with Shekhinah constantly. So the reality is that the Prophet never stopped sleeping with Safiyya: their sex went on and on forever. They are still at it right now in fact, but this truth has been lost to us.

    (Interestingly, my interpretation was recently put to a group of "fundamentalist" Sufis, who ended up getting pretty upset, mainly due to my understanding of theft and sex, which are very loaded words for them. They also tend to be quite anti-hadith, whereas I am hyper-Salafi. But interestingly, the use of Kabbalah distresses some, because the mystical version of Islam, just like the mainstream Islam, appears to have got quite segregated with respect to its piece of the pie. However, whoever wrote that hadith was, for me, clearly well-versed in the Jewish mysticism: the language is simply isomorphic. Having both Jewish and Islamic backgrounds from my mother and father respectively, you could argue I am simply viewing everything with my peculiar personal perspective, but on the other hand, I suspect many of these hadith writers had a similar background to mine!)

    (Hot and sweaty) Love and Light,

    The Tailor

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #13 - May 30, 2009, 10:41 AM

    lol @ tailor
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #14 - June 13, 2009, 06:30 PM

    But the next hadith contradicts it:

    Quote
    Volume 7, Book 62, Number 6:

        Narrated Anas:

        The Prophet I used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.


    Maybe he mistook Safiya with Sauda who gave up her day to Aisha...
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #15 - June 13, 2009, 06:58 PM

    But the next hadith contradicts it:

    Maybe he mistook Safiya with Sauda who gave up her day to Aisha...

    I've been wondering about that too. There is another hadith that mentions this story too but it doesn't say who the person without a night was unfortunately. I cant find any Islamic sites discussing this. I'm quite sceptical of this hadith.
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #16 - July 22, 2009, 06:01 AM

    From wikipedia:

    Legacy

    In 656, Safiyya sided with caliph Uthman ibn Affan, and defended him at his last meeting with Ali, Aisha, and Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr. During the period when the caliph was besieged at his residence, Safiyya made an unsuccessful attempt to reach him, and supplied him with food and water via a plank placed between her dwelling and his.[3]

    Safiyya died in 670 or 672, during the reign of Muawiyah, and was buried in the Jannat al-Baqi graveyard.[18] She left an estate of 100,000 dirhams in land and goods, one-third of which she bequeathed to her sister's son, who followed Judaism. Her dwelling in Medina was bought by Muawiyya for 180,000 dirhams.[3]

    According to an Islamic legend, Safiyya is said to have a dream which predicted her marriage with Muhammad, and she was beaten by her husband for desiring another man. Thus, the dream (interpreted as a miracle), her suffering, and her reputation to cry has won her a place in Sufi works. She appears in all major books of hadith and rolls of hadith transmitters.[3]

    Troll more haters.
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #17 - July 22, 2009, 11:16 AM

    She dreamt of a moon, her moronic husband interpreted it as a wish for her to marry another man for whatever silly reason (and to be honest this story is so ridiculous I'd consider it made-up).

    Mohammed tortured her husband for treasure and then killed him. He then married Safiyah the next day, didn;t even bother waiting for one month like he is supposed to and slept with her. What grieving widow would sleep with the man who tortured and killed her husband, and also killed the rest of her family (well the males at least)? I'd say this is a clear case of Stockholm syndrome.
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #18 - July 22, 2009, 11:25 AM

    What grieving widow would sleep with the man who tortured and killed her husband, and also killed the rest of her family (well the males at least)? I'd say this is a clear case of Stockholm syndrome.

    Actually, there's a hadith about a man waiting outside Mohammad's tent while Mohammad was "knowing" Safiyyah, because he feared that Safiyyah might try to kill Mohammad. So I think Safiyyah was an unwilling partner, i.e. Mohammad raped Safiyyah. I think the Stockholm syndrome takes some time to develop, it just doesn't happen overnight.

    Quote
    When the apostle married Safiya in Khaybar or on the way, she having been beautified and combed, and got in a fit state for the apostle by Umm Sulaym d. Milhan mother of Anas b. Malik, the apostle passed the night with her in a tent of his. Abu Ayyub, Khalid b. Zayd brother of B. al-Najjar passed the night girt with his sword, guarding the apostle and going round the tent until in the morning the apostle saw him and asked him what he meant by his action. He replied, "I was afraid for you with this woman for you have killed her father, her husband, and her people, and till recently she was in unbelief, so I was afraid for you on her account." They allege that the apostle said "O God, preserve Abu Ayyub as he spent the night preserving me." (Ibid., pp. 516-517)


    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #19 - July 22, 2009, 11:26 AM

    No, I'd say it's a clear case of a seventeen year old girl being held captive by men who she has just seen torture and kill some of her close relatives. Stockholm syndrome means identifying with your captors. That wouldn't have been the case immediately after. She just would have been terrified that she would suffer the same fate, or worse, if she didn't comply with all demands.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #20 - July 22, 2009, 12:25 PM

    She dreamt of a moon, her moronic husband interpreted it as a wish for her to marry another man for whatever silly reason (and to be honest this story is so ridiculous I'd consider it made-up).


    That's exactly what I thought when I heard that. That story has got to be bullshit propaganda to show that she wanted to marry Muhammad, and was not taken captive and forced to marry him. I mean, the story doesn't even make any sense!

    Quote
    Mohammed tortured her husband for treasure and then killed him. He then married Safiyah the next day, didn;t even bother waiting for one month like he is supposed to and slept with her. What grieving widow would sleep with the man who tortured and killed her husband, and also killed the rest of her family (well the males at least)? I'd say this is a clear case of Stockholm syndrome.


    How reliable is this story? I read that the general consensus is that it is pretty weak, because it first appeared in Ibn Ishaq's  "Sirat Rasul Allah", and there was no source for this story.

    When the apostle married Safiya in Khaybar or on the way, she having been beautified and combed, and got in a fit state for the apostle by Umm Sulaym d. Milhan mother of Anas b. Malik, the apostle passed the night with her in a tent of his. Abu Ayyub, Khalid b. Zayd brother of B. al-Najjar passed the night girt with his sword, guarding the apostle and going round the tent until in the morning the apostle saw him and asked him what he meant by his action. He replied, "I was afraid for you with this woman for you have killed her father, her husband, and her people, and till recently she was in unbelief, so I was afraid for you on her account." They allege that the apostle said "O God, preserve Abu Ayyub as he spent the night preserving me." (Ibid., pp. 516-517)


    Any chance you could give the reference for this if you got it?

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #21 - July 22, 2009, 12:34 PM

    Quote from: aliadiere
    Any chance you could give the reference for this if you got it?

    I've seen this Hadith on WikiIslam.

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Main_Page#Safiya_bint_Huyai_bin_Akhtaq

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #22 - July 22, 2009, 12:50 PM

    How reliable is this story? I read that the general consensus is that it is pretty weak, because it first appeared in Ibn Ishaq's  "Sirat Rasul Allah", and there was no source for this story.

    My source is Ibn Hisham but I think he probably took it from Ishaq's source (don't those 2 use the same source? I cant remember). I think the original source is Al-Tabari, he is not considered completely authentic though.

  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #23 - July 22, 2009, 12:54 PM

    Ibn Ishaq only exists from what Ibn Hisham took from him.

    Ibn Ishaq 704-767
    Ibn Hisham d.833
    Tabari 838-923

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #24 - July 22, 2009, 01:09 PM

    My source is Ibn Hisham but I think he probably took it from Ishaq's source (don't those 2 use the same source? I cant remember). I think the original source is Al-Tabari, he is not considered completely authentic though.


    The earliest source out of these three was definitely Ibn Ishaq. The reason I was talking about this being weak is because any weak hadith which may show islam in a bad light is usually rejected on account of being weak by Muslims. However, any weak hadith which might show Muslims in a favourable light is usually welcomed wiht open arms; i.e. "the pen is mightier than the sword", "going to china to find knowledge" etc.



    Nice one, it is from Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah".

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #25 - July 22, 2009, 01:36 PM

    How reliable is "Sirat Rasul Allah"?
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #26 - July 22, 2009, 01:46 PM

    I'm not sure to be honest with you, I'll have to find out about that one. It is the earliest biography of Muhammad but many of his narrations were not used by later scholars.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #27 - July 22, 2009, 02:02 PM

    My source is Ibn Hisham but I think he probably took it from Ishaq's source (don't those 2 use the same source? I cant remember). I think the original source is Al-Tabari, he is not considered completely authentic though.




    Ibn Hisham's works were lost, the accounts we have of Ibn Hisham's work come from Ishaqs compilations.
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #28 - July 22, 2009, 02:09 PM

    Fair enough you two.
  • Re: Safiyya didn't have a turn
     Reply #29 - July 22, 2009, 02:14 PM

    Ibn Hisham's works were lost, the accounts we have of Ibn Hisham's work come from Ishaqs compilations.

    you got it backwards Tongue

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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