Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Islam and Science Fiction
Yesterday at 11:57 PM

New Britain
Yesterday at 09:32 PM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
Yesterday at 02:57 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
February 08, 2025, 01:38 PM

German nationalist party ...
February 07, 2025, 01:11 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
February 06, 2025, 03:13 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
February 05, 2025, 10:04 PM

Gaza assault
February 05, 2025, 10:04 AM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
February 03, 2025, 09:25 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
February 02, 2025, 04:29 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
February 01, 2025, 11:48 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
February 01, 2025, 07:29 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Respecting People's faith

 (Read 26057 times)
  • 12 3 ... 6 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Respecting People's faith
     OP - May 29, 2009, 01:18 PM

    I said recently to "History" that:

    "I like Jews, but I think Judaism is bullshit."

    I have a feeling that History is quite upset with me for saying that as I have apologised on the thread and again in a PM - neither of which he has responded to.

    It has made me think about the question of being respectful towards another persons faith. In general I have always been very respectful towards other people's religion. But since leaving Islam I have started saying things - like "Islam (or any other religion) is bullshit!" - that I would not have said before.

    Actually I do try to be respectful - but I do find myself, more and more being disrespectful towards religion.

    I just wanted to know from others what they think.

    Should we strive to be respectful and avoid language like "bullshit" - even though we may think it is - but simply because it is unecessarily hurtful to others?
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #1 - May 29, 2009, 01:32 PM

    I remember when I read your post and being surprised by your reaction.  I might add that you did qualify it by saying you thought all religions were the same though, so it was not a personal attack as such.

    IMO I think its disrespectful to say anything anybody believes in is bullshit, religion, pov or otherwise, if they have been civil with you from the start.  When we talk between ourselves its a different matter, and as a closed group I can see that it is very easy lose sight of the broader picture, particular when you're made anonymous behind a computer screen.

    My impression is that he would not have been too bothered about what you said though, he has probably heard it a zillion times before on the Islamic forums, and he seems quite a level headed fellow.  In any case, you apologised twice so it should be water under the bridge.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #2 - May 29, 2009, 01:33 PM

    Well, this is the modern world, we have freedom of speech-as long as it does not stoop to personal insult of individual people belongign to the faith, or harassment, deportation,death threats-we should be able to say what we like.

    We should respect all individuals, without having to respect or share their political beliefs, religious beliefs, economic beliefs etc.

    It can't really be helped if people are upset. Also, no one is forced to join particular forums-once they make an individual choice, they have to be exposed to a wide variety of views. If one joins, they should join with thicker skins, or else insulate oneself from contradictory views.

    In case of Judaism, while as a people they have been persecuted by Christians for deicide & by Muslims for wars with Muhammad etc-the other monotheists haven't ever trashed their faith much-how could they, having plagiarized so much of their theology? Wink

    Thus from the forums History has frequented before-Ummah.com & Islamfactor.org, he must have been expecting Muslims to be very hostile to Zionists & by extension Jews, but they would all retain a sense of "shared monotheism" & accept some principles of monotheism(real or fanciful) as being inherently beneficial.

    In contrast, in an ex Muslim site, particularly in this one, people are against all faiths & would mock all gods-that might be hard for some to take.

    In my case, I was specifically asked by History about which aspect of Jewish theology makes me "not a fan."-I could either lie or tell him honestly-I choose to do the latter.

    My intention was never to upset someone but to engage in a discussion.


    Should we strive to be respectful and avoid language like "bullshit" - even though we may think it is - but simply because it is unecessarily hurtful to others?


    For my part, yes I would avoid language like bullshit, it isn't a good debate or discussion tactic & it gets people's defenses up immediately.

    Like sparky said(he in all probability is a missionary, he must have learnt proselytization tactics) one shouldn't start a debate with Muslims with pedo prophet.

    Also, if I may say this, saying religion is bullshit is childish, you're both quite middle aged.  Wink(please don't be offended)

    Maybe explaining your problems with religion rather than a blanket statement of bullshit would've been better.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #3 - May 29, 2009, 01:34 PM

    It's your opinion and you are entitled to it, however if you care about peoples sensitivities then it's probably better not to tell them that you think their religion is bullshit Wink Although not everyone will take offence to that.

    I'm becoming more disrespectful towards religion too, it's getting to the point where I can barely stand it. It makes sense to feel this way and I do wish theists would try and understand/respect how we atheists feel a little more rather than always commanding undeserved respect for their religion. They need to stop expecting others to shower praises over their religion or at the least try to understand that others may not necessarily agree with their teachings and even at times find them abhorrent.

    From what I've heard about History I am surprised he took offence to that. Maybe he just didn't expect it coming from someone like yourself?
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #4 - May 29, 2009, 01:57 PM

    Should we strive to be respectful and avoid language like "bullshit" - even though we may think it is - but simply because it is unecessarily hurtful to others?

    That's easy said... But what is respectful? How far can we go?
    Men in Iran already feel insulted when they see a woman with uncovered arms...
    There's also a HUGE difference between "insulting" Jews and Judaism.
    Insulting Jews is a prejudice, but insulting Judaism is just your opinion, since there's just 1 Judaism.

    To be honest, I don't understand why people feel insulted if you say something about their religion.
    So what if you don't like what they believe? xD
    I know I wouldn't feel insulted if someone said something bad about ex-muslims...
    Just makes him look stupid imo... xD

    Twitter: https://twitter.com/ExMuslims
    Council of Ex-Muslims of the Netherlands will be back!

    Never doubt that a small group of commited people can change te world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. -Margaret Mead
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #5 - May 29, 2009, 02:12 PM

    Thanks for the replies. I regret saying what I said and I will try harder to remain polite towards other people's faith - especially someone like History, who I have known for a long time and I know he is a decent guy.

    The truth is I do feel a sense of anger towards Islam - and religion in general. I feel let down, lied to and cheated - and it does sometimes make me want to smash things and shout out.

    But that's wrong - and unhelpful - and as Rashna says I am indeed middle aged and should know better. (Boy do I feel small.)
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #6 - May 29, 2009, 02:13 PM

    My view is that you have the right to be disrespectful or respectful, and it is down to your discretion.

    If your intention is to influence somebody's view, then having a degree of respectful conduct is beneficial. Generally Hassan, you are very respectful in your conduct in your YouTube videos, and it probably has a positive effect on those watching. You respect the person even if you don't respect the opinion.

    The problem with "respect" (like "offence") is that it is a subjective notion from each individual's point of view, and it is hugely determined by culture. Being compelled to "respect" somebody's view is therefore to be at the mercy of their subjective viewpoint and their cultural upbringing, which is not something people should be at the mercy of.

    At the end of the day, some people have views that warrant some sort of rebuttal, and this rebuttal may actually be disrespectful (or offensive) to the individual. But it still has to be said. I guess the art comes to saying the thing in a way most acceptable to the recipient but without diluting the essence of what you are communicating. Yes, I know that is manipulative. That's why I personally prefer to just call a spade a spade even if it's deemed disrespectful and offensive. It's ultimately my discretion.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #7 - May 29, 2009, 02:16 PM

    The truth is I do feel a sense of anger towards Islam - and religion in general. I feel let down, lied to and cheated - and it does sometimes make me want to smash things and shout out.

    I feel the same way and it is so frustrating! It makes it impossible to forget about Islam and to stop obsessing over it.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #8 - May 29, 2009, 02:16 PM

    But that's wrong - and unhelpful - and as Rashna says I am indeed middle aged and should know better. (Boy do I feel small.)


    Now I hope you don't get upset with me!  Wink

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #9 - May 29, 2009, 02:44 PM

    But that's wrong - and unhelpful - and as Rashna says I am indeed middle aged and should know better. (Boy do I feel small.)


    Now I hope you don't get upset with me!  Wink


    You are like my daughter, Rashna - I can't get upset with you Smiley
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #10 - May 29, 2009, 04:13 PM

    I think the problem lies in differing perspectives. To you Judaism might mostly mean the dogma.

    To him it is more personal. He associates it with his family, the way he was raised, his morals, whatever human kindness seen channeled through his synagogue, the centuries of perseverance over persecution. He has a lot of baggage associated with the word that you don't have.



    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #11 - May 29, 2009, 04:32 PM

    I think the problem lies in differing perspectives. To you Judaism might mostly mean the dogma.

    To him it is more personal. He associates it with his family, the way he was raised, his morals, whatever human kindness seen channeled through his synagogue, the centuries of perseverance over persecution. He has a lot of baggage associated with the word that you don't have.


    I get that, what I dont get it how that makes it true?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #12 - May 29, 2009, 05:39 PM

    Quote
    I get that, what I dont get it how that makes it true?



    It's not true.
    It's bullshit.


    BlipsrsealedB

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #13 - May 29, 2009, 05:58 PM

    Different people have different levels of tolerance when it comes to their faith, also different people have different levels of tolerance when it comes to choice of words, to some bullshit will be an extreme expression.

    I personally wouldn't use bullshit for Judaism-a faith which claims .3% of the world's population as its adherents but has won a third of all Nobel Prizes & contributed so much in terms of science, technology & human thought is not really bullshit. People like Einstein, while dismissing the Bible as childish myths did have great affection for his Jewish roots!

    Also, a faith which despite having stuff like stoning non virgins on their daddy's doorstep in their texts is the only mid east people to not commit any honor killings aren't really bullshit. Nor are people who practice such homo tolerance despite inventing the Lut's story.

    Bullshit for me means literally bullshit  Crap like for eg the Taliban are  bullshit

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #14 - May 29, 2009, 06:16 PM

    I don't think you should respect people's faith. I believe you should respect the fact that the person believes in their faith and is serious about it and you should respect their right to believe in that faith, but that doesn't mean that you cannot criticise the faith or disrespect the faith itself.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #15 - May 29, 2009, 07:38 PM

    Judaism-a faith which claims .3% of the world's population as its adherents but has won a third of all Nobel Prizes

    It would not surprise me if Islam was a faith with a third of the world's population with a 0.3% of all Nobel Prizes

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #16 - May 29, 2009, 07:50 PM

    I personally wouldn't use bullshit for Judaism-a faith which claims .3% of the world's population as its adherents but has won a third of all Nobel Prizes & contributed so much in terms of science, technology & human thought is not really bullshit.

    Judaism contributed all that? Or some very bright individuals who happened to be Jewish?

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #17 - May 29, 2009, 07:52 PM

    It could also be said that without Judaism there would have been no Christianity or Islam.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #18 - May 29, 2009, 07:56 PM

    True, dont blame Islam blame the Jews.

    We have not changed even as ex-muslims  Wink

    I agree with your point though, it is the fault of Moses, and what a mistake he made.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #19 - May 29, 2009, 07:58 PM

    True, dont blame Islam blame the Jews.

    We have not changed even as ex-muslims  Wink

    I agree with your point though, it is the fault of Moses, and what a mistake he made.


    lol... I'm not blaming Jews - just stating the obvious.

    Let's face it - both Christianity and Islam are just modified forms of Judaism.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #20 - May 29, 2009, 08:01 PM

    Judaism contributed all that? Or some very bright individuals who happened to be Jewish?


    Yep, it was Jews who contributed all that or even people of Jewish ethnicity who actually were non believers in G-d & the Torah, a significant number of contributers would fall into that category. I'm not sure I should really credit Judaism for those.

    But anyway, Judaism as a faith as its practiced currently is pretty decent. They've managed to explain away the unpleasant stuff in their theology, or as History puts it, they have managed to understand what G-d really meantwith more understanding of the world.  grin12

    Its allright, not really bullshit.

    I'm tempted to say that for a non believer, reading the Torah is reading bullshit, but I don't want to upset or show disrespect to History.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #21 - May 29, 2009, 08:02 PM

    Let's face it - both Christianity and Islam are just modified forms of Judaism.

    Definitely. That's no secret.

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #22 - May 29, 2009, 08:06 PM

    For anyone who hasn't noticed this site or read through it yet, check this out.

    I didn't read the Torah or the NT from this site btw, I read the book as it is at first, but I didn't find much in that  shows it to be any G-d's word-it was a cluster of good & bad stuff.

    This site spoke to me in a way few others did, I really could see all that was absurd & objectionable.




    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #23 - May 29, 2009, 08:18 PM

    I don't think you should respect people's faith. I believe you should respect the fact that the person believes in their faith and is serious about it and you should respect their right to believe in that faith, but that doesn't mean that you cannot criticise the faith or disrespect the faith itself.

    This. I don't believe that people's doctrines and beliefs automatically deserve respect. And when they involve stopping people questioning or criticising them, and urge their followers to believe in the absence of evidence and - furthermore - in the face of contradictory evidence, I say those beliefs deserve ridicule and the very opposite of respect.

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #24 - May 29, 2009, 08:20 PM


    I'm not sure I should really credit Judaism for those.



    Yeah, this is what I was having trouble accepting. It seemed to me that you were saying that they were brilliant and innovative because of Judaism.

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #25 - May 29, 2009, 08:35 PM

    Judaism contributed all that? Or some very bright individuals who happened to be Jewish?


    Yep, it was Jews who contributed all that or even people of Jewish ethnicity who actually were non believers in G-d & the Torah, a significant number of contributers would fall into that category. I'm not sure I should really credit Judaism for those.

    But anyway, Judaism as a faith as its practiced currently is pretty decent. They've managed to explain away the unpleasant stuff in their theology, or as History puts it, they have managed to understand what G-d really meantwith more understanding of the world.  grin12

    Its allright, not really bullshit.

    I'm tempted to say that for a non believer, reading the Torah is reading bullshit, but I don't want to upset or show disrespect to History.



    Sorry, Rashna, just curious as to why you say G-d and not God.

    I understand History saying it, because it's his belief. But why are you doing it?
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #26 - May 29, 2009, 08:39 PM

    Perh_ps R_shna is now a J-w?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #27 - May 29, 2009, 08:46 PM

    Sorry, Rashna, just curious as to why you say G-d and not God.

    I was gonna ask the same question.

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #28 - May 29, 2009, 08:53 PM

    B-c-se I w-s  spe-king of the Je-ish G-d to H-st-ry about th-se st-ff, got into that habit. grin12

    I often say just god. I think if we're speaking to a person of faith-be they Jewish, Christians, Muslims or whatever & presenting an alternate pov, its best not to start off by offending them.

    Thus, calling Muhammad Mo, Jesus Jeebus or G-d as god is immediately offensive, so its better to refer to these politely, I forgot I'm not posting all these in reply to History's posts anymore, but to a bunch of g-dless heathens!  Tongue

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #29 - May 29, 2009, 09:03 PM

    B-c-se I w-s  spe-king of the Je-ish G-d to H-st-ry about th-se st-ff, got into that habit. grin12

    I often say just god. I think if we're speaking to a person of faith-be they Jewish, Christians, Muslims or whatever & presenting an alternate pov, its best not to start off by offending them.

    Thus, calling Muhammad Mo, Jesus Jeebus or G-d as god is immediately offensive, so its better to refer to these politely, I forgot I'm not posting all these in reply to History's posts anymore, but to a bunch of g-dless heathens!  Tongue


    lol Smiley
  • 12 3 ... 6 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »