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Theme Changer

 Topic: Respecting People's faith

 (Read 25951 times)
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  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #120 - June 02, 2009, 03:27 PM

    Quote
    The Hebrew Scriptures (The "Old" Testament) are foundational to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic religions. Hence, the condemnation of women in Genesis 3.16 is a doctrine for all of them. There, God (Yahweh) curses the first woman, Eve, for the sin of offering Adam the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil:

    "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be they husband, and he shall rule over thee."

    By this "original sin," all women are punished with the pains of childbirth and subservience to men. But it is also claimed that this transgression by Eve brought endless suffering to all of humanity while on earth. This, supposedly, explains why there is so much suffering in general and who is responsible for it.

         Furthermore, the Hebrew scripture treat women as the property of men (chattel, cattle), thus, promoting blatant misogyny. The wretched status of women in Judaism is acknowledged by the male prayer: "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe, who has not made me a woman."

    reference site

    Yeah I won't be respecting Judaism anytime soon. Guess what? It's one of the oldest BULLSHIT stories in the world, don't make it right, still Bullshit, sorry, mate. If anything, its bullshit is uniquely BULLSHIT in that it has managed to transform into some kind of benign, secular "race" when in fact it is one of the first monotheistic, exclusivist, racist ideologies that has given birth to the other 2 cancerous ideologies, jesusism and allahism. It's just old, reeking, half decayed Bullshit.

    Asking me to respect that is futile. Ain't gonna happen. Not into political correctness. If you want to criticise Islam, then you have to be able to look at the Bullshit that you yourself have been taught. Otherwise, you're a hypocrite.

    And I'm partnered with a "Jew" so spare me the cries of antisemitism. My "ethnically Jewish" partner is as big a critic of Judaism as I am of Islam.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #121 - June 02, 2009, 03:41 PM

     Afro  Nice lips by the way!

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  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #122 - June 02, 2009, 04:31 PM

    Thanks Islame  Wink

    Here's a video one of my other blasphemous, non-believin', free-thinkin' "Jewish" friends shared on facebook.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKxnICixF7g

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #123 - June 02, 2009, 04:46 PM


    You've read Martin Buber?

    Pretty much, "yes."

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #124 - June 02, 2009, 05:03 PM

    You've read Martin Buber?

    Little bit, enough to get the gist of that concept, should to do more.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #125 - June 02, 2009, 05:26 PM

    Hi, osmanthus.
    Thanks for your post.
    I think so.
    Perhaps.
    Ah. Veiled insults FTW. Thank you.

    Not at all.  oops
    I am suggesting that profanity can (1) too often be the fallback when one's vocabulary is limited, and/or (2) is a verbal offensive, one that seeks to elevate the importance of one's own opinion over another's.
    Quote
    That is an opinion, not a fact. Like any other word in the language it has its uses.

    The etymology of the word dates back to the 14th century stating another is fradulant, fake, insincere, false, even full of wickedness.  Not used in polite or friendly discourse.
    Language evolves, of course, and the use noncommittaly between friends/associates does occur in the vernacular in modern times.
    However, this was not the use to which Hassan put it in his initial post, nor can the word be generally accepted as something indicatively "positive."  As in "what cute little bullsh*t."  Smiley
    Quote
       Again, an opinion, which you are perfectly entitled to and others are entitled not to share.
    Sometimes. Not always, but even when it is used in that manner it may sometimes be warranted.
    Of course there are. I never claimed otherwise.
    Nice try, but no cigar. You see what you did here? You called my explanation bullshit and then tried to pretend that you hadn't really called my explanation bullshit. This makes you a/ a hypocrite perhaps somewhat less than entirely consistent when it comes to putting your professed position into practice and b/ dishonest seem to be not always painstakingly scrupulous in your attempts to ensure that your words are in strict accordance with objective truth.

    Don't be so serious all the time.   hugs Lighten up and have fun.  I don't take myself so seriously, which this was to demonstrate.  Sorry you took offense (paradoxically), but you missed both the humor and the point I was making by example. Jesus! ( Ooops.) 
    Quote
    See how it works? Nice, isn't it? Grin
    Depends from whose point of view. I was referring to a predominantly like-minded group talking casually among themselves, which does tend to happen here. 

    Yet, on the subject of Judaism, Hassan and I are not "like-minded."
    Would you therefore suggest the use of "bullsh*t" or other profanity was appropriate or inappropriate?
    How would you speak differently to those who are not "like-minded"?
    Quote
    Your grandmother was entitled to her opinions. However given the subjectivity of "rudeness", which we're currently discussing by the way, and given that some people may feel that some points need to be made, then one could argue that at times there is a need to be rude. 

    When and why is rudeness to a fellow human being appropriate?
    Quote
    Another veiled insult. You should wear a heavier veil. Your face is showing.  Wink

    Again, not at all.
    You should not be so quick to assume offense.  Wink
    I am sharing that I believe (rationally) that one who thinks of others before themselves or, at least, as equivalent to themselves (the "We") act and speak with greater consideration of others than those who are singly focused on themselves (the "I").

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #126 - June 02, 2009, 05:39 PM

    The etymology of the word dates back to the 14th century stating another is fradulant, fake, insincere, false, even full of wickedness.  Not used in polite or friendly discourse.

    Then in the bolded examples above the word is an accurate reflection of the opinion of the person using it, if they are talking about a religion they see no reason to believe in.

    They may also think that some aspects of it are wicked.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #127 - June 02, 2009, 06:11 PM

    Then in the bolded examples above the word is an accurate reflection of the opinion of the person using it, if they are talking about a religion they see no reason to believe in.

    They may also think that some aspects of it are wicked.

    They might.
    They are talking.
    They see no reason...
    They think...
    Their emphasis, of course, is on themselves.

    I am suggesting that for the best human interactions, the best human societies, and the best human philosophies (including religions), are those where they consider others before (or at least equivalent to) themselves.

    This is what I like about Judaism's ethical teachings.
    Thus, for me, it is not bullsh*t.
    It is a way of life that inspires and defines me.
    I know Christians, and Muslims, and Buddhists, and agnostics, and atheist/humanists who share the same ethical beliefs regardless if the derived them from other sources.
    We can recognize what unifies us (when we acknowlede the "We" instead of the "Me"), and if we do another no harm nor force our beliefs upon them, I submit all are worthy of respect.
    To be treated as one wishes to be treated in return [Vayikrah 19:18; Talmud Shabbat 31a].

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #128 - June 02, 2009, 06:14 PM

    If people are expressing their opinion then of course "their emphasis is on themselves". It is their opinion. You are doing exactly the same thing. I understand that for you Judaism is not bullshit and that's fine. It's also fine if other people think it is bullshit.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #129 - June 02, 2009, 06:16 PM

    To be treated as one wishes to be treated in return [Vayikrah 19:18; Talmud Shabbat 31a].


    So History, please tell us then why does Judaism treat women differently, i.e. more "evil" and less "good" than men?

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #130 - June 02, 2009, 07:09 PM

    History - do you respect Nazi ideology? Please answer this question, as I am intrigued as to what you answer might be.

    Because there are many here (including me) who, rightly or wrongly, believe their are parts of Islam that are akin to this ideology.  This is part of the problem, and why religion has reached a point where it deserves little respect for some of us.


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  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #131 - June 02, 2009, 07:16 PM

    Hi, osmanthus,
    Thank you for your post.
    If people are expressing their opinion then of course "their emphasis is on themselves". It is their opinion. You are doing exactly the same thing. I understand that for you Judaism is not bullshit and that's fine. It's also fine if other people think it is bullshit.

    Either one cares how one's words or actions may unnecessarily cause hurt to another.
    Or one does not.
    That is the the essence of what I am attempting to share.

    If you will permit to repeat what I shared in post #9:

    We share this world together, and our purpose is to make it pleasant and good for as many others as possible.
    We will find innumerable people we disagree with.  One can disagree without causing hurt feelings or anger, simply by thinking of the other before oneself.  One also need not (and should not) always voice one's own opinion if it may cause another unnecessary hurt.

    There is an example of this from Talmud, again demonstrating the difference between the Letter of the Law (Torah) and the Spirit of the Law as described between the Schools of Rabbi Shammai and Rabbi Hillel (1st century BCE):

    The schools of Hillel and Shammai are famous for their disputes in Jewish law. One of these concerned whether one should tell a bride on her wedding day that she is beautiful even if this is not true. The school of Shammai held that in this situation it would be wrong to lie. The school of Hillel held that a bride is always beautiful on her wedding day. (Talmud, Ketubot 16b-17a) The school of Hillel won the dispute. Indeed, Jewish law today almost always agrees with the school of Hillel. The Talmud (Eruvin 13b) explains why: 

    A heavenly voice declared: "The words of both schools are the words of the living God, but the law follows the rulings of the school of Hillel."

    So why does the law follow the rulings of the school of Hillel? The Talmud explains that the disciples of Hillel were gentle and modest, and studied both their own opinions and the opinions of the other school, and humbly mentioned the words of the other school before their own.

    Thus, osmanthus, I submit just because one has an opinion, doesn't mean one should always speak it.
    Particularly if it may cause unnecessary hurt or offense to another.
    Again, it is founded on considering your fellow and not just yourself.
    A.k. The Golden Rule.


    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #132 - June 02, 2009, 07:26 PM

    Oh sure. For instance if you, for some reason, invited me to your synagogue and I, for some reason, accepted the invitation I would be mindful of the fact that I was "on your turf' and be rather more circumspect about my opinions than I might be in other circumstances. Accepting the invitation and then using it as an opportunity to loudly proclaim that Judaism is bullshit would be rather over the top. That isn't the case here though. I also do not agree that one's primary concern should always be to avoid giving offense to anyone, particularly if the other person is not likely to reciprocate. Your people learned that one the hard way. Bear in mind that in the case of people who leave Islam you have Islamic law backed by Islamic scholars for centuries that says such people should be killed. Under those circumstances I think "bullshit" is not too strong a word.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #133 - June 02, 2009, 07:41 PM

    Hi, Allat.
    So History, please tell us then why does Judaism treat women differently, i.e. more "evil" and less "good" than men?

    Jewish women and men traditionally over 4000 years have had different gender-based roles in regard to family and community life.  Under G-d, they are equal.  
    In the course of 4000 years, one can find misogynist rabbis--whose statements are not atypical from the surrounding socities in which they lived.  However, one can also find great examples of respect and admiration of women in Judaism:  from Ruth and Deborah and the four Matriarchs of Hebrew Scripture, to the wisdom and conpassion of Beruriah, Rabbi Meir's famous wife, and of Rabbi Akiva's wife, etc.
    As society has changed down the centuries, so has Jewish Common Law--for Judaism is a living not static belief system and way of life.  Thus, as the societal need for gender-based traditional roles changed, so has these roles among Jews (often, btw, these and other gender-based and civil rights advances were founded and led by Jews).  Jewish women can aspire to positions of greath authority, both religious and secular--from Prime Minister of Israel to US Suprem Court Justice to business and political leaders in many nations,  Jewish women and men today both can be caregivers and wage-earners--both can even lead services, and become rabbis (this past month even the Orthodox rabbinate is opening to women--there have been Conservative and Reform women rabbis and cantors for decades).
    How would you say Jewish women compare to women in other religious groups, or among people without religious beliefs?  Do they fare better or worse?

    Respectfully,
    History

    P.S.  Thank you all for your interest in discussion, but I need stop for now.  I've got to get back to work.  far away hug

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #134 - June 02, 2009, 07:57 PM

    Hi, Allat.Jewish women and men traditionally over 4000 years have had different gender-based roles in regard to family and community life.  Under G-d, they are equal.  
    In the course of 4000 years, one can find misogynist rabbis--whose statements are not atypical from the surrounding socities in which they lived.  However, one can also find great examples of respect and admiration of women in Judaism:  from Ruth and Deborah and the four Matriarchs of Hebrew Scripture, to the wisdom and conpassion of Beruriah, Rabbi Meir's famous wife, and of Rabbi Akiva's wife, etc.
    As society has changed down the centuries, so has Jewish Common Law--for Judaism is a living not static belief system and way of life.  Thus, as the societal need for gender-based traditional roles changed, so has these roles among Jews (often, btw, these and other gender-based and civil rights advances were founded and led by Jews).  Jewish women can aspire to positions of greath authority, both religious and secular--from Prime Minister of Israel to US Suprem Court Justice to business and political leaders in many nations,  Jewish women and men today both can be caregivers and wage-earners--both can even lead services, and become rabbis (this past month even the Orthodox rabbinate is opening to women--there have been Conservative and Reform women rabbis and cantors for decades).
    How would you say Jewish women compare to women in other religious groups, or among people without religious beliefs?  Do they fare better or worse?

    Respectfully,
    History

    P.S.  Thank you all for your interest in discussion, but I need stop for now.  I've got to get back to work.  far away hug



    You kind of evaded the question there. I asked why does JUDAISM treat women as less than men. The RELIGION itself, its holy texts include misogyny in its basic texts. Can you deny that?

    Anyway, you're starting to sound like the "moderate" muslims who are willing to close their eyes to the actual things in their religion's basic texts. Muslims blame bad Mullahs, you're blaming bad Rabbis. Sure, ok. That's fine, more power to the dilution of dogma and to the breakdown of literalist religion. If we can't have a world without religion, the best we can hope for is that those who *need* religion behave themselves around those who don't, and vice versa.

    ETA: That means we respect each others' right to exist, but NOT each others' philosophies of life unless they make sense to us. Humans have rights. Ideas & beliefs do not have any rights in and of themselves.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #135 - June 02, 2009, 07:57 PM

    Hi, Allat.Jewish women and men traditionally over 4000 years have had different gender-based roles in regard to family and community life.  Under G-d, they are equal.  
    In the course of 4000 years, one can find misogynist rabbis--whose statements are not atypical from the surrounding socities in which they lived.  However, one can also find great examples of respect and admiration of women in Judaism:  from Ruth and Deborah and the four Matriarchs of Hebrew Scripture, to the wisdom and conpassion of Beruriah, Rabbi Meir's famous wife, and of Rabbi Akiva's wife, etc.
    As society has changed down the centuries, so has Jewish Common Law--for Judaism is a living not static belief system and way of life.  Thus, as the societal need for gender-based traditional roles changed, so has these roles among Jews (often, btw, these and other gender-based and civil rights advances were founded and led by Jews).  Jewish women can aspire to positions of greath authority, both religious and secular--from Prime Minister of Israel to US Suprem Court Justice to business and political leaders in many nations,  Jewish women and men today both can be caregivers and wage-earners--both can even lead services, and become rabbis (this past month even the Orthodox rabbinate is opening to women--there have been Conservative and Reform women rabbis and cantors for decades).
    How would you say Jewish women compare to women in other religious groups, or among people without religious beliefs?  Do they fare better or worse?

    Respectfully,
    History

    P.S.  Thank you all for your interest in discussion, but I need stop for now.  I've got to get back to work.  far away hug


    I think women in Judaism as in every other religion has advanced and conquered most on the mysogynistc teachings found in all religions.

    They have gained freedoms and reached the heights of society in spite of religion. It is simply because of rational secular societies showing the errors of religions and the equality of all that women are where they are today.

    Not because of anything inherent in Judaism, Islam, Christianity or Hinduism. Its by suppressing these doctrines that such advancements have been made possible.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #136 - June 02, 2009, 08:01 PM


    How would you say Jewish women compare to women in other religious groups, or among people without religious beliefs?  Do they fare better or worse?


    A good point, as I agree they probably tend to fair best out of all the religions. 

    However you could argue that because Jews, again out of all the religions, are now very secular in their outlook  Wink.  So much so, that the biggest problem in Judaism today (noting the exact opposite to the Islamization of Islam) is the secularisation, or even 'agnostisation', of Judaism!

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  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #137 - June 02, 2009, 08:02 PM

    I think women in Judaism as in every other religion has advanced and conquered most on the mysogynistc teachings found in all religions.


    Exactly. And I see absolutely NO reason to "respect" any ideology (aka religion) that promotes hatred towards me, or anyone else for that matter.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #138 - June 02, 2009, 08:33 PM

    Hassan all you have to do is pick nicer words...translate bullshit for 'false and untrue' and if people still are offended then the problem really lies with them and how they are reacting.

    At the end of the day, all religions or ideologies dont have feelings, they are not alive, so if you think the Quran, Bible, torah or any other 'book' for that matter is full of lies its in your right to say so...to me it makes no difference if you say bullshit or not, the point is you think whats in the writings is false.

    If the people who think its the word of God get upset that you dont agree with them,,,,that really is their problem to deal with in my view.

     Afro
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #139 - June 02, 2009, 08:43 PM

    Exactly. And I see absolutely NO reason to "respect" any ideology (aka religion) that promotes hatred towards me, or anyone else for that matter.


    The thing is the apologists for the faith would say they no longer promote such teachings. That such teachings were only specific to a particular time.

    However they have nothing to justify that on. They can ignore it. But the teachings are still there because they cannot change the book very easily. After all they are the words of God.

    So they are only fooling themselves.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #140 - June 02, 2009, 09:04 PM

    The thing is the apologists for the faith would say they no longer promote such teachings. That such teachings were only specific to a particular time.


    Yeah they do say that, no matter of what religion. They all say that theirs is the final, utmost, perfect religion with all the answers. Then they go and contradict that statement by saying that the "real" religion has been distorted by Mullahs or Rabbis or Priests. As if religion itself was a tangible entity independent of the people who claim to practice it.

    However they have nothing to justify that on. They can ignore it. But the teachings are still there because they cannot change the book very easily. After all they are the words of God.


    Again religious apologists face their hypocrisy. Religion is perfect and the word of god, but it's been tampered and it's for all time but it can't be modified, and it has all the answers but they're hidden from its followers. Just one piece of BS after another all the way to their dying moment which is what religion is all about banking on - fear of death.

    So they are only fooling themselves.


    Yuppers.

    Still, I don't respect their ideologies but I think well-meaning fools are better than suicide bombers and their supporters. So let the kids have their imaginary friends. But they can't expect everyone to coddle them and their fantasies.


    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #141 - June 02, 2009, 11:05 PM

    Exactly. And I see absolutely NO reason to "respect" any ideology (aka religion) that promotes hatred towards me, or anyone else for that matter.


    I agree with this, and also that respect must be earned. No one can demand respect from anyone else.

    We keep hearing about how Jack Straw or the French government have mentioned the veil and our doing so puts us in the same boat as them. How so? I want a ban on the burka, neqab and child veiling.

    you can either defend women or you must defend Islam. You can’t defend both

    - Maryam Namaze
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #142 - June 02, 2009, 11:58 PM

    Wow, this thread has generated a lot of posts.

    I apologize for the brevity, but I have other commitments.
    In regard to Judaism and gender roles, the parallel is similar to that of Judaism and polygamy, and Judaism and slavery.  In all three, Judaism was evolutionary, if not revolutionary, in comparison to the other peoples of its times.  The trends to the ethics being espoused by many of you, and many here seem to suggest originated from the late modern age secularism, actually derived from the progressive development of these ideas from ancient times--and,for Western soceties, I'll state, from the ethics in Judaism and the democratic ideals that similarly were initiated in ancient Greece.
    I'll even suggest that in the absence of this religious foundation, the best that can be acheived is amorality.

    In regards to women, as I've shared (see prior post), there are many examples in Hebrew Scripture and Talmudic literature of women as leaders, heroes, and role models for Jewish women and men as examples of wisdom, loyalty, intelligence, compassion, and achievement.  Secularization merely opened opportunity (for Jewish men as well as women--and many other peoples) in all segments of common society in the modern era for further expression based on the Scriptural-adopted ideals of "one law for you and the stranger who dwells among you", "justice you shall pursue," and the knowledge that all humanity are siblings derived from the same first parents, Adam and Eva.  Smiley
    Recall: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness [U.S. Declaration of Independence]
    This is a wonderful summation of the central Message of Scripture. Smiley

    Respectfully,
    History

    P.S.  As an observation, I will share I oddly find many posts here more intolerant, monolithic, and unnecessarily harsh towards "the other" than on most of the other Muslim sites I've frequented.  It suggests to me the problem is not with religion or the absence thereof, per se, but with people.  I find this very interesting.  Shark

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #143 - June 03, 2009, 12:04 AM

    Quote
    P.S.  As an observation, I will share I oddly find many posts here more intolerant, monolithic, and unnecessarily harsh towards "the other" than on most of the other Muslim sites I've frequented.  It suggests to me the problem is not with religion or the absence thereof, per se, but with people.  I find this very interesting.


    As somebody that read many of your posts on Ummah and the responses to them, I have to dispute this.  The responses you have received here, so far, are far less intolerant, monolithic and harsh towards the other than the type of crap you received there.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #144 - June 03, 2009, 12:24 AM

    That's why I said "than on most of the other Muslim sites I've frequented", Cheetah.
    But, at times, even Ummah.com had Muslims who were polite and interested in 2-way sharing.

    Have a great evening.

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #145 - June 03, 2009, 12:29 AM

    In regard to Judaism and gender roles, the parallel is similar to that of Judaism and polygamy, and Judaism and slavery.  In all three, Judaism was evolutionary, if not revolutionary, in comparison to the other peoples of its times.  The trends to the ethics being espoused by many of you, and many here seem to suggest originated from the late modern age secularism, actually derived from the progressive development of these ideas from ancient times--and,for Western soceties, I'll state, from the ethics in Judaism and the democratic ideals that similarly were initiated in ancient Greece.
    I'll even suggest that in the absence of this religious foundation, the best that can be acheived is amorality.

    Well considering that the best religion can achieve is no better I'd say we're even.


    Quote
    In regards to women, as I've shared (see prior post), there are many examples in Hebrew Scripture and Talmudic literature of women as leaders, heroes, and role models for Jewish women and men as examples of wisdom, loyalty, intelligence, compassion, and achievement.  Secularization merely opened opportunity (for Jewish men as well as women--and many other peoples) in all segments of common society in the modern era for further expression based on the Scriptural-adopted ideals of "one law for you and the stranger who dwells among you", "justice you shall pursue," and the knowledge that all humanity are siblings derived from the same first parents, Adam and Eva.  Smiley

    Sure, that is part of what your scripture says about women. Why not quote some of the other parts? See this is the problem. When people say something is bullshit they usually aren't talking about the good bits. So all the stuff about the Golden Rule, etc is something most people would be fine with, I think. Those parts aren't exclusive to any religion. Therefore they cannot be claimed by any religion.

    On the other hand your scripture includes, to take just one example, provision for stoning a rape victim to death if she happens to be raped in a town but nobody hears her voice (for whatever reason). This is part of your religion. It may not be a part that you practice but it is there. The fact that you don't practice it would indicate to me that you regard it as bullshit, in the sense of being beyond the pale, horrific, unjust and perhaps even unholy and inhuman. What you seem to be missing is that when people strongly criticise your belief system or the beliefs of others it is these horrific parts that really get them wound up. You claim the books that espouse these acts are holy books that are the best guides for people to live by. It smells funny.


    Quote
    P.S.  As an observation, I will share I oddly find many posts here more intolerant, monolithic, and unnecessarily harsh towards "the other" than on most of the other Muslim sites I've frequented.  It suggests to me the problem is not with religion or the absence thereof, per se, but with people.  I find this very interesting.  Shark

    Some posts are, yes. The reasons are explained above. Basically, you are trying to evoke reverence for the unconscionable.

    ETA: I'll add that history is full of examples of what happens when people decide the unconscionable is to be revered.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #146 - June 03, 2009, 12:38 AM

    Ok History, let's say I decide to convert to Judaism and I decide I want to be a really good Jew. So the best way to do that would be to study the Torah and live according to it, correct? I mean let's not do a half-hearted job here. Now, if I were to really live by all of what your scripture says that would inlcude, for instance, upholding the laws in Leviticus. I'm sure you can see where I'm heading with this. It isn't anywhere you would want to go. Despite this, you still revere the Torah I assume. The question is why? It contains much that should be and has been abandoned. Wouldn't this indicate that it is merely a hodgepodge of ideas and in itself is no more worthy of reverence than any other piece of literature?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #147 - June 03, 2009, 07:16 AM

    Ok History, let's say I decide to convert to Judaism and I decide I want to be a really good Jew. So the best way to do that would be to study the Torah and live according to it, correct? I mean let's not do a half-hearted job here. Now, if I were to really live by all of what your scripture says that would inlcude, for instance, upholding the laws in Leviticus. I'm sure you can see where I'm heading with this. It isn't anywhere you would want to go. Despite this, you still revere the Torah I assume. The question is why? It contains much that should be and has been abandoned. Wouldn't this indicate that it is merely a hodgepodge of ideas and in itself is no more worthy of reverence than any other piece of literature?



    Well put. Afro

    (I can guess the reply though).

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #148 - June 03, 2009, 08:34 AM

    As well as my earlier post about whether you respect the POV of Nazi's, could you also let me know if you think Yahweh was a homophobe? 

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #149 - June 03, 2009, 10:17 AM

    Reminds me of someone who claimed to be a Neo-Nazi on a forum who said something to the effect:

    "I'm a Nazi, but we have evolved. Our doctrine no longer calls for the extermination of the Jews and non aryan race or the isolation of the feeble and mentally challenged, but Mein Kanpf is the greatest work which we follow because it was written by a great man and must be reverred and respected."

    Should I accept Nazism and respect it, because he claims it has evolved and ignore what the doctrine actually says knowing very well one day a zealot will come along and influence the followers that to be a true Nazi you must follow the original words of the Fuhrer?

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
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