Abortion?

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #60 - June 05, 2009, 11:40 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:38 PM
There is nobody in this world - I don't care what has happened to them - who I would honour with the liberty to kill an innocent child. This sounds similar to a kind of primitive Biblical morality.

Please answer the question: Is a woman just a vessel, or a person with the right to choose what to do with her own body?

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #61 - June 05, 2009, 11:41 PM

[15 new replies have been posted since I started writing the following posting so the issues I raise may already have been dealt with]

Quote from: aife on June 05, 2009, 11:12 PM
Woman raped = woman must be further punished by having her life turned upside down and her right to choose taken away

I don't get THAT

Don't you think someone who has already been victimised deserves a bit of consideration here ?

Rape does not justify killing a child. Lets take emotionality out of it. How the pregnancy came into being does not affect the moral question of whether abortion should/should not be permitted.

People talk of abortion in the early stages as ridding the body of a bunch of unspecialised cells, lacking in brain waves, heartbeat, consciousness. And it is proposed that due to this it is okey to terminate that pregnancy. On this point I am undecided, because I can see how it can be compared to a skin graft in a person. Clinicians discourage women from treating abortion in such early days as a form of emergency contraception and I hold such a belief too. My problem arises when the pregnancy is prolonged. I understand many women are not aware of their pregnancy until the end of their first semester, and abortion is still permitted in the UK upto 24 weeks! This is abhorrant and bluntly put, murder. At 6 weeks the fetus has a heartbeat and has developed legs which will soon still kicking. Neural pathways are formed in the brain at 8 weeks and at 24 weeks (upper limit for abortion) you can not excuse away the fetus as simly bing a bunch of cells; at 24 weeks, the BABY is developing taste buds. In these instances, the right of the unborn child must be considered. The unborn may not have the ability to speak for itself using their mouth however it looks unmistakenly in the image of a born child.
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Re: Abortion?
Reply #62 - June 05, 2009, 11:41 PM

Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:31 PM
Is a woman just a vessel, or a person with the right to choose what to do with her own body?

Every person has the right to choose what to do with their own body, except if it means to kill another person.

It seems Q-Man replied to your post before it was even made.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #63 - June 05, 2009, 11:44 PM

I see it like this:
The will of X should have priority over the existence of Y if the existence of X is absolutely necessary to the existence of Y

In other words, if something needs your body to survive, you should have the right to deny your body to them.
It's quite different from killing a being that could survive even after you stopped existing.

Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
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Re: Abortion?
Reply #64 - June 05, 2009, 11:45 PM

Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:40 PM
Please answer the question: Is a woman just a vessel, or a person with the right to choose what to do with her own body?

I already answered. Shall I repeat myself? Okay then.

Every person has the right to do what they want with their body. This includes a woman. (duh!)

However, they do not have the right to do what they want with their own body if it would mean killing somebody. For example, I can do what I want with my hands. They are attached to my own body, but I should not place them around somebody's neck and squeeze tightly.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #65 - June 05, 2009, 11:45 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:41 PM
Every person has the right to choose what to do with their own body, except if it means to kill another person.

It seems Q-Man replied to your post before it was even made.

So you're saying that a bunch of cells inside a woman's body are a person? From when? The moment of conception?

So in essence, a woman is a vessel, yeah? She can't have control over what happens in and to her body because you think she shouldn't have that right. You are more concerned with the right of someone who hasn't been born yet, hasn't even developed into a human being, than the right of somoene who is living, breathing, thinking, suffering at that moment.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #66 - June 05, 2009, 11:46 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:45 PM
I already answered. Shall I repeat myself? Okay then.

Every person has the right to do what they want with their body. This includes a woman. (duh!)

However, they do not have the right to do what they want with their own body if it would mean killing somebody. For example, I can do what I want with my hands. They are attached to my own body, but I should not place them around somebody's neck and squeeze tightly.

See what I answered to Q-Man about that.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #67 - June 05, 2009, 11:47 PM

Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:40 PM
Please answer the question: Is a woman just a vessel, or a person with the right to choose what to do with her own body?

She's a vessel carrying a huge responsibility. I do not mean that in a derogative manner; a woman is a vessel in the sense she carries and protects the fetus when the fetus can not do so by itself. But that does not mean the woman has the right to do whatever she likes. A mother protects her small born baby, feeds it and clothes it, because otherwise the child would die. The baby can not fend for itself at such an age. But if a woman was to just leave the child and do whatever she wanted, neglecting her responsibilities, I'm sure majority of people would chastise her for it. Carrying an unborn child, in this regard, is no different.
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Re: Abortion?
Reply #68 - June 05, 2009, 11:48 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:45 PM
I already answered. Shall I repeat myself? Okay then.

Every person has the right to do what they want with their body. This includes a woman. (duh!)

However, they do not have the right to do what they want with their own body if it would mean killing somebody. For example, I can do what I want with my hands. They are attached to my own body, but I should not place them around somebody's neck and squeeze tightly.

... perhaps you should if they're squatting inside you uninvited
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Re: Abortion?
Reply #69 - June 05, 2009, 11:49 PM

Quote from: Ferrero on June 05, 2009, 11:47 PM
She's a vessel carrying a huge responsibility. I do not mean that in a derogative manner; a woman is a vessel in the sense she carries and protects the fetus when the fetus can not do so by itself. But that does not mean the woman has the right to do whatever she likes. A mother protects her small born baby, feeds it and clothes it, because otherwise the child would die. The baby can not fend for itself at such an age. But if a woman was to just leave the child and do whatever she wanted, neglecting her responsibilities, I'm sure majority of people would chastise her for it. Carrying an unborn child, in this regard, is no different.

YES that's my point... once the child is born (even later stages of pregnancy) neglect or abuse is MUCH WORSE than not letting that pregnancy complete by early stage abortion. You can't apply the same rule to early stage abortions that you use to defend children's rights. Once they are born, the rules change. Before then, especially in the EARLIER STAGES of pregnancy, it's the woman who has to choose whether she can or should have a child.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #70 - June 05, 2009, 11:52 PM

Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:49 PM
YES that's my point... once the child is born (even later stages of pregnancy) neglect or abuse is MUCH WORSE than not letting that pregnancy complete by early stage abortion. You can't apply the same rule to early stage abortions that you use to defend children's rights. Once they are born, the rules change. Before then, especially in the EARLIER STAGES of pregnancy, it's the woman who has to choose whether she can or should have a child.

Upto what week of pregnancy would be classed as 'earlier stages', iyo?
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Re: Abortion?
Reply #71 - June 05, 2009, 11:54 PM

Quote from: Tlaloc on June 05, 2009, 11:44 PM
I see it like this:
The will of X should have priority over the existence of Y if the existence of X is absolutely necessary to the existence of Y

In other words, if something needs your body to survive, you should have the right to deny your body to them.
It's quite different from killing a being that could survive even after you stopped existing.

I reject that formula. I use this thought experiment.

If I see a child drowning in a bath and I am the only person in the house, that child's life is absolutely dependent on my body. Without my body I would not be there, and thus the child will drown. If I stand there and watch the child drown because I believe I have absolute power over the child's life now, have I committed an immoral action? I think I have.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #72 - June 05, 2009, 11:56 PM

Quote from: Tlaloc on June 05, 2009, 11:44 PM
I see it like this:
The will of X should have priority over the existence of Y if the existence of X is absolutely necessary to the existence of Y

In other words, if something needs your body to survive, you should have the right to deny your body to them.
It's quite different from killing a being that could survive even after you stopped existing.

Well put. Too many people can't see why the person who will have to go through the physical, mental, emotional trauma of birthing an unwanted child, should have any rights to choose anything.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #73 - June 05, 2009, 11:58 PM

Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:45 PM
So you're saying that a bunch of cells inside a woman's body are a person? From when? The moment of conception?

So in essence, a woman is a vessel, yeah? She can't have control over what happens in and to her body because you think she shouldn't have that right. You are more concerned with the right of someone who hasn't been born yet, hasn't even developed into a human being, than the right of somoene who is living, breathing, thinking, suffering at that moment.

Do you think that when a child is born it has a species transplant and turns into a human being? If not then why do you keep referring as the unborn child as not being a human being? It is a human being that you are advocating the murder of.

For the fourth time, the woman should have complete control over her body, yes, unless she chooses to do a particular thing with her body that would lead to the death of another human being.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #74 - June 05, 2009, 11:59 PM

Quote from: Ferrero on June 05, 2009, 11:52 PM
Upto what week of pregnancy would be classed as 'earlier stages', iyo?

Please see my response on the previous page. I'm no doctor but the stages of pregnancy are taken into account. I am not for late term abortions myself, as I think people need to take responsibility for their choices ONCE another sentient person is involved. As long as the fetus is a mass of cells without consciousness or sentience, that choice has to be be the mother's, because that's still an event occuring in HER body.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #75 - June 06, 2009, 12:00 AM

Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:58 PM
Do you think that when a child is born it has a species transplant and turns into a human being? If not then why do you keep referring as the unborn child as not being a human being? It is a human being that you are advocating the murder of.

For the fourth time, the woman should have complete control over her body, yes, unless she chooses to do a particular thing with her body that would lead to the death of another human being.

So you're saying that from the moment of conception, it is a person, a living, sentient human being, is that right?

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #76 - June 06, 2009, 12:00 AM

Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:56 PM
Well put. Too many people can't see why the person who will have to go through the physical, mental, emotional trauma of birthing an unwanted child, should have any rights to choose anything.

I can empathise with a woman who falls pregnant through rape. I can understand the emotional aguish and trauma she feels and may feel towards the prospect of having a child. However, I also strongly believe that a victim doesn't have the right to perpetrate an injustice on another innocent being. Although connected, there are two issues in such a case: the violation felt by the woman and the position of the fetus bar emotionality.
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Re: Abortion?
Reply #77 - June 06, 2009, 12:01 AM

Quote from: aife on June 05, 2009, 11:48 PM
... perhaps you should if they're squatting inside you uninvited

Do you have the right to kill a helpless unthreatening burglar? No...

And even then, a burglar has done something wrong, the unborn child has not.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #78 - June 06, 2009, 12:02 AM

Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:39 PM
I'm not just for abortion in the case of rape. I am for abortion in the case of when the child would be unwanted or neglected.

Again, then why mention it?

Quote
Yes, don't strangle a living, conscious, breathing person or animal. A bunch of cells without consciousness or sentience, though are not the same.

A fetus lacks consciousness or sentience at all stages of development?

Quote
It's not dogmatic to let other people have the right to make their own choices. Its dogmatic to impose OUR choices on other people. I'm not saying everyone SHOULD have an abortion, I'm saying everyone who is alive and can make a conscious decision, should have the right to choose one way or another.

Within the context of this discussion, that argument is little better than a tautology. The argument, from the other side, is that the fetus has a right which is being violated by someone else's choice to abort. You can talk about choice all you like, but unless you can show how this interfaces with rights, it's pretty much meaningless. In other words, it's obvious the woman has rights, but does the fetus? Whether or not a choice, in this instance, is permissible, is contingent on answering that question.

Quote
from wikipedia's article on "Fetus"
A fetus (also spelled foetus or f?tus) is a developing mammal or other viviparous vertebrate, after the embryonic stage and before birth. The plural is fetuses.
In humans, the fetal stage of prenatal development begins about eight weeks after fertilization, when the major structures and organ systems have formed, and lasts until birth.
References: http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3424
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/185610/embryo

No offense allat, but that's evasive and didn't even come close to answering what I asked. The when is a simple enough question, which can be answered in a few words. The why, however, may prove trickier.

ON EDIT: I just caught your response #74 to Leet Socrates, Jr. which is what I was looking for. That actually clears up a lot.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #79 - June 06, 2009, 12:02 AM

Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:59 PM
Please see my response on the previous page. I'm no doctor but the stages of pregnancy are taken into account. I am not for late term abortions myself, as I think people need to take responsibility for their choices ONCE another sentient person is involved. As long as the fetus is a mass of cells without consciousness or sentience, that choice has to be be the mother's, because that's still an event occuring in HER body.

So I take it you would condemn abortion after the first 6 weeks? What of women who have been raped (to use your example) but are yet unaware of their pregnancy?
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Re: Abortion?
Reply #80 - June 06, 2009, 12:04 AM

Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:26 PM
It is a human life that is at stake here, not a note with your rapist's signature here. Have some respect.

Well it's a good thing you'll never be raped and forced to carry your rapist's seed inside your body and then raise your rapist's child for your whole life.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #81 - June 06, 2009, 12:06 AM

It's interesting how much men who have never and will never be in these situations love to moralize over a woman's body. Somethings don't change.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #82 - June 06, 2009, 12:08 AM

Quote from: allat on June 06, 2009, 12:00 AM
So you're saying that from the moment of conception, it is a person, a living, sentient human being, is that right?

Well it is a living person and a human being there is no doubt about that.

You must be taking me for a mug if you think I believe its mental capacities are fully developed are conception. They're not even fully developed after birth! But I believe that from the moment of conception, or at least soon after conception, their mental capacities have started being developed.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #83 - June 06, 2009, 12:09 AM

Quote from: allat on June 06, 2009, 12:06 AM
It's interesting how much men who have never and will never be in these situations love to moralize over a woman's body. Somethings don't change.

I think you are being a bit unfair there. Men may not be able to be impregnanted through rape but that does not mean they are not affected by the effects of it. Men have sisters, daughters, wives and girlfriends who have been in such a situation. You do not necessarily have to have personally experienced it to 'moralise'.
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Re: Abortion?
Reply #84 - June 06, 2009, 12:09 AM

Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:01 AM
Do you have the right to kill a helpless unthreatening burglar? No...

And even then, a burglar has done something wrong, the unborn child has not.

well , if he was helpless and unthreatening he wouldn't have taken up burglary , would he ? and if he was actually inside me and planning to stay there for nine months , he would definitely be history

.... but seriously JM , have you really thought about how it might feel to be raped ? And then to find out that you're pregnant ? I just don't see anything in your posts that suggests any glimmer of understanding
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Re: Abortion?
Reply #85 - June 06, 2009, 12:11 AM

Quote from: Ferrero on June 06, 2009, 12:02 AM
So I take it you would condemn abortion after the first 6 weeks? What of women who have been raped (to use your example) but are yet unaware of their pregnancy?

Good question. Will be curious to hear the response.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #86 - June 06, 2009, 12:11 AM

Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:54 PM
I reject that formula. I use this thought experiment.

If I see a child drowning in a bath and I am the only person in the house, that child's life is absolutely dependent on my body. Without my body I would not be there, and thus the child will drown. If I stand there and watch the child drown because I believe I have absolute power over the child's life now, have I committed an immoral action? I think I have.

Not the same.
First, in your experiment, the child was already able to exist without you.
Regardless of the fact that your present absence would imply his death.
In the case of mother-embryo/fetus, he would not even begin existing if she did not exist

Second, his dependency on you is merely circumstantial. You could be potentially be replaced by any other "saving agent" without replacing the child.

That doesn't happen in the case of mother-embryo... A given embryo is always dependent on a given mother.

Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
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Re: Abortion?
Reply #87 - June 06, 2009, 12:13 AM

Quote from: allat on June 06, 2009, 12:06 AM
It's interesting how much men who have never and will never be in these situations love to moralize over a woman's body. Somethings don't change.

Are you making a judgment of my character?

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #88 - June 06, 2009, 12:13 AM

IF we were technologically able to grow a given embryo or fetus outside of a given mother, then I would agree that aborting is the same as murdering an innocent.
Because then the fact that some potential human is inside this or that uterus would be pretty much circumstantial.

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Re: Abortion?
Reply #89 - June 06, 2009, 12:17 AM

Quote from: allat on June 06, 2009, 12:06 AM
It's interesting how much men who have never and will never be in these situations love to moralize over a woman's body. Somethings don't change.

See, that's the kind of dogmatism I'm talking about. Just cut off discussion by basically saying "It's a woman's body, and you're a man so you don't get to try to refute me, otherwise you're just part of the evil patriarchy".

Don't worry, the dogmatism on the other side of the debate is arguably even worse. Just once I'd like to encounter someone with a firm opinion on this subject who's able to discuss it calmly and rationally without falling back on the old canards and dogmas of the "pro-life" or "pro-choice" movements.

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