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Theme Changer

 Topic: Abortion?

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  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #90 - June 06, 2009, 12:21 AM
    Quote from: aife on June 06, 2009, 12:09 AM
        well , if he was helpless and unthreatening he wouldn't have taken up burglary , would he ? and if he was actually inside me and planning to stay there for nine months , he would definitely be history

      .... but seriously JM , have you really thought about how it might feel to be raped ? And then to find out that you're pregnant ? I just don't see anything in your posts that suggests any glimmer of understanding


    I do empathize with the pregnant woman whether it was a result of a rape or not, if that is what you're asking. Otherwise, what you are insinuating?

    If a burglar broke into your house and then suddenly the whole Earth turned into a lava pit except your house, and the burglar has made no threatening advance against you, then yes I would consider you to have committed a morally evil act if you were to kill him/her or to push him out of your house to face inevitable death. You would be a murderer.

    ...And that's in the instance of a burglar who has done something wrong, but were talking about an innocent child here who has never even had the chance to do something wrong yet...

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #91 - June 06, 2009, 12:23 AM
    Quote from: allat on June 06, 2009, 12:06 AM
    It's interesting how much men who have never and will never be in these situations love to moralize over a woman's body. Somethings don't change.  Roll Eyes

    I dont think its a male/female issue, as you will note from this thread there were many men who were pro-abortion and equally in society there are many women who are anti-abortion.  

    However I do agree it is harder for younger men without children to empathise with the plight of a women in this situation, particularly when in this day & age the onus of responsibility for raising children is still on the mother and an extremely hard one at that.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #92 - June 06, 2009, 12:27 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on June 06, 2009, 12:11 AM
    Not the same.
    First, in your experiment, the child was already able to exist without you.
    Regardless of the fact that your present absence would imply his death.
    In the case of mother-embryo/fetus, he would not even begin existing if she did not exist


    Indeed, they're not the same. Why another difference that can be pointed out is that in my scenario, the child is in a bath that is made of plastic, whereas the mother's womb is not made of plastic.

    What I'm saying is your reply is irrelevant.

    Quote
    Second, his dependency on you is merely circumstantial. You could be potentially be replaced by any other "saving agent" without replacing the child.

    That doesn't happen in the case of mother-embryo... A given embryo is always dependent on a given mother.


    In the case of a pregnant mother, the child's dependancy on her is arguably "circumstantial" aswell. Somebody else could have been in the woman's shoes.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #93 - June 06, 2009, 12:27 AM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:13 AM
    Are you making a judgment of my character?


    No nothing personal. It's just funny how otherwise enlightened people like to think they have the right to control a woman's body and restrict her choices.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-choice
    If you guys want to argue legislation and biology, there are a number of books and articles out there. I know that it is not an easy choice for any woman, mainly because of the heaps of religious-based morality that we're buried in from a young age.

    I personally don't agree with late term abortions. But I also know that each situation is unique and I don't feel arrogant enough to impose my beliefs on others.

    It's a slippery slope from saying ban abortions to saying ban contraceptives. Women will still need to and get abortions, they'll just be performed by illegal methods and butchers with hangers.

    Like many other unfortunate but necessary things in the world, abortion is not a black-or-white issue. Society needs to deal with it on many levels, first starting with safe sex education. If any of you guys think it's an open and shut case of "right or wrong" then you're being simplistic and not looking at other sides of the issue.

    Anyway, honestly, internet arguments are a waste of time. You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want to. We just must allow each other to have the choice to do what we want with our lives. Again, differentiate between late and early terms, do the research, listen to other perspectives. Don't just dogmatically assume that your belief that "it's a person at the moment of conception" is the only belief out there.

    If you weren't aborted and you're happy about that, thank your mom. But don't presume to know what's going on in the case of every woman who gets an abortion. Might be that she saved that potential person from a lifetime of grief.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #94 - June 06, 2009, 12:28 AM
    Quote from: Q-Man on June 06, 2009, 12:17 AM
    See, that's the kind of dogmatism I'm talking about. Just cut off discussion by basically saying "It's a woman's body, and you're a man so you don't get to try to refute me, otherwise you're just part of the evil patriarchy".

    Don't worry, the dogmatism on the other side of the debate is arguably even worse. Just once I'd like to encounter someone with a firm opinion on this subject who's able to discuss it calmly and rationally without falling back on the old canards and dogmas of the "pro-life" or "pro-choice" movements.


    Have I shown this same kind of dogmatism?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #95 - June 06, 2009, 12:32 AM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:28 AM
    Have I shown this same kind of dogmatism?


    I don't agree with everything in allat's last post, but I do agree this discussion/debate has run its course and it's probably time to bring it to a close. With that, I'm off...and be sure to thank allat for wisely ending this seemingly interminable and increasingly acrimonious debate. THANKS ALLAT!!!!!!
    fuck you
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #96 - June 06, 2009, 12:39 AM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:27 AM
    Indeed, they're not the same. Why another difference that can be pointed out is that in my scenario, the child is in a bath that is made of plastic, whereas the mother's womb is not made of plastic.

    What I'm saying is your reply is irrelevant.

    here is an even greater argument:
    wow? :S

    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:27 AM
    In the case of a pregnant mother, the child's dependancy on her is arguably "circumstantial" aswell. Somebody else could have been in the woman's shoes.

    No.
    If you or someone else were in the woman's shoes, then someone else is going to be in the child's shoes as well.

    The child-mother relation is not as circumstantial
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #97 - June 06, 2009, 12:47 AM
    But it is still going to be a child. That's what matters.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #98 - June 06, 2009, 12:52 AM

    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:47 AM
    But it is still going to be a child. That's what matters.


      ]www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:47 AM
    [/url]

                   Hope you're practising what you preach

  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #99 - June 06, 2009, 01:09 AM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:01 AM
    Do you have the right to kill a helpless unthreatening burglar? No...

    And even then, a burglar has done something wrong, the unborn child has not.


    I live in Texas.  The law allows me to kill a home invader as my first move.  I probably wouldn't, but I'd certainly make him wish he hadn't picked my house to invade.

    On the subject of abortion, if a woman is raped, the absolute last thing that she wants to do is bear the product of rape.  So as I see it, her getting an abortion is a completely moral thing to do.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #100 - June 06, 2009, 01:26 AM
    Quote from: SmartAssmodeus on June 06, 2009, 01:09 AM
    I live in Texas.  The law allows me to kill a home invader as my first move.  I probably wouldn't, but I'd certainly make him wish he hadn't picked my house to invade.


    Striking them down as self-defence is okay, but having the right to kill them, even if they've seen you and are running for the door, I would say is immoral.

    Quote
    On the subject of abortion, if a woman is raped, the absolute last thing that she wants to do is bear the product of rape.  So as I see it, her getting an abortion is a completely moral thing to do.


    This "product" of rape you are talking about is an innocent child who has committed no immorality.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #101 - June 06, 2009, 01:48 AM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 01:26 AM
    Striking them down as self-defence is okay, but having the right to kill them, even if they've seen you and are running for the door, I would say is immoral.

    This "product" of rape you are talking about is an innocent child who has committed no immorality.


    Talk to women who have been raped.  They will probably tell you something along the lines of what I just said. 
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #102 - June 06, 2009, 02:23 AM
    Quote from: SmartAssmodeus on June 06, 2009, 01:48 AM
    Talk to women who have been raped.  They will probably tell you something along the lines of what I just said. 


    I have. They didn't.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #103 - June 06, 2009, 08:27 AM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:08 AM
    Well it is a living person and a human being there is no doubt about that.

    You must be taking me for a mug if you think I believe its mental capacities are fully developed are conception. They're not even fully developed after birth! But I believe that from the moment of conception, or at least soon after conception, their mental capacities have started being developed.

    Ok, that's what you believe. It's a religious belief, or at the very least an unsubstantiated one. Do you know that most fertilised eggs spontaneously abort naturally? Should we have a funeral every time this happens? After all, if they are all "unborn children" surely funerals would be in order.

    James, if you try to convince me that a non-sentient collection of cells is an "innocent child" you are going to fail. The reason you are going to fail is because I can see absolutely nothing that would back your assertion. Note that I am talking about early-term abortions here. Like Allat I am not in favour of late-term abortions unless there is a very pressing reason for them, so your posting of a picture of a five month old foetus is irrelevant to me. I don't think anyone is actually "in favour" of late-term abortions even when there is a very pressing reason for them. It's more that under some circumstances they may be a necessary evil.

    As for asking when is the magical cut-off moment between acceptable and unacceptable, there isn't one. These things are a continuum, not something that has an on/off switch. It's all shades of grey in the real world. If you can't handle that then you can't handle the reality of the situation.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #104 - June 06, 2009, 10:18 AM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:47 AM
    But it is still going to be a child. That's what matters.

    Are you able to differentiate between "classes and instances" (if i talk in information science terms) or between "types and tokens" (if i talk in philosophical terms)?

    You are saying that: the existence of a instance/token of a "growing child" class/type is dependent on the existence of a instance/token of a "pregnant mother" class/type exactly like the existence of a instance/token of a "drowning child" is dependent on the existence of a instance/token of a "saving agent"


    But, no, they are not quite the same.

    You are intentionally ignoring the fact that the first relation is actually:
    a given instance/token of "growing child" is dependent on the existence of one and one only given instance/token of "pregnant mother"

    And the second relation is:
    a given instance/token of "drowning child" is dependent on the existence of ANY instance/token of "saving agent"

    The first relation is not circumstantial, the second is.

    To help you a bit further with examples, it would be like saying that "a key can open a locked door" is as circumstantial as "a ram can open a locked door"
    Are you actually unable to notice the difference?
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #105 - June 06, 2009, 10:31 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 06, 2009, 08:27 AM
    Ok, that's what you believe. It's a religious belief, or at the very least an unsubstantiated one. Do you know that most fertilised eggs spontaneously abort naturally? Should we have a funeral every time this happens? After all, if they are all "unborn children" surely funerals would be in order.

    James, if you try to convince me that a non-sentient collection of cells is an "innocent child" you are going to fail. The reason you are going to fail is because I can see absolutely nothing that would back your assertion. Note that I am talking about early-term abortions here. Like Allat I am not in favour of late-term abortions unless there is a very pressing reason for them, so your posting of a picture of a five month old foetus is irrelevant to me. I don't think anyone is actually "in favour" of late-term abortions even when there is a very pressing reason for them. It's more that under some circumstances they may be a necessary evil.

    As for asking when is the magical cut-off moment between acceptable and unacceptable, there isn't one. These things are a continuum, not something that has an on/off switch. It's all shades of grey in the real world. If you can't handle that then you can't handle the reality of the situation.

    From what I inferred from the "consciousness" thread, he believes that consciousness is a dichotomic on/off property. Not a fuzzy concept with various degrees of consciousness. And if I remember right I did ask him when/how a human supposedly becomes suddenly conscious, but he just ignored.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #106 - June 06, 2009, 10:58 AM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 02:23 AM
    I have. They didn't.


    How many raped pregnant women have you spoken to?
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #107 - June 06, 2009, 11:06 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 06, 2009, 08:27 AM
    James, if you try to convince me that a non-sentient collection of cells is an "innocent child" you are going to fail. The reason you are going to fail is because I can see absolutely nothing that would back your assertion.


    How can I try and convince you of something which is self-evident? You can keep telling yourself it is just a "collection of cells" as if you could get a spoon, mix it, and you would not have caused any damage. Embryos ARE humans, NOT A chemical solution.

    Quote
    I don't think anyone is actually "in favour" of late-term abortions even when there is a very pressing reason for them.


    The law is. Don't you care about that?

    Quote
    As for asking when is the magical cut-off moment between acceptable and unacceptable, there isn't one. These things are a continuum, not something that has an on/off switch. It's all shades of grey in the real world. If you can't handle that then you can't handle the reality of the situation.


    Your right, there is no magical cut off point, but that is a repulsively ignorant justification to allow abortion up to 24 weeks into the pregnancy. We have to decide for a practical cut off point after which we give the child the benefit of the doubt and refrain from killing him/her. If you can't appreciate that then you can't handle the reality of the situation.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #108 - June 06, 2009, 11:14 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on June 06, 2009, 10:58 AM
    How many raped pregnant women have you spoken to?


    I havn't spoken to raped pregnant women although I have read reports of such women who had an abortion and thereafter they are struck by grief twice over.

    I've spoken to a couple of rape victims who are against abortion even if it was the product of a rape though.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #109 - June 06, 2009, 11:17 AM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 11:14 AM
    I havn't spoken to raped pregnant women although I have read reports of such women who had an abortion and thereafter they are struck by grief twice over.

    I've spoken to a couple of rape victims who are against abortion even if it was the product of a rape though.


    So really you haven't spoken to any women who became pregant as a result of rape so therefore your statement that you had spoken to some of them and they agree with your stance is not true.

    As to the women who have been raped, and told you that they wouldn't have aborted, well it hasn't happened to them so they honestly can't say what they would really do if it happened to them.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #110 - June 06, 2009, 11:30 AM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 11:06 AM
    How can I try and convince you of something which is self-evident? You can keep telling yourself it is just a "collection of cells" as if you could get a spoon, mix it, and you would not have caused any damage. Embryos ARE humans, NOT A chemical solution.

    It isn't self-evident at all, James. I also am aware that mashing an embryo with a spoon will damage it. However if an early-term embryo was put in front of you without you being told what it was you would not even recognise it as human. Have you seen the charts that compare embryos of various species? At an early stage humans are virtually indistinguishable from the others. There is a vast difference between and embryo and a child. I'll ask you again: do you think we should have funerals for fertilised eggs that spontaneously abort very early in the pregnancy? If you don't think we should have funerals for those "innocent children", why not?


    Quote
    The law is. Don't you care about that?

    No, the law is not "in favour". The law, like me, regards it as a necessary evil under some circumstances.


    Quote
    Your right, there is no magical cut off point, but that is a repulsively ignorant justification to allow abortion up to 24 weeks into the pregnancy. We have to decide for a practical cut off point after which we give the child the benefit of the doubt and refrain from killing him/her. If you can't appreciate that then you can't handle the reality of the situation.

    The practical cut off point has been set. At 24 weeks.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #111 - June 06, 2009, 11:32 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on June 06, 2009, 11:17 AM
    So really you haven't spoken to any women who became pregant as a result of rape so therefore your statement that you had spoken to some of them and they agree with your stance is not true.

    As to the women who have been raped, and told you that they wouldn't have aborted, well it hasn't happened to them so they honestly can't say what they would really do if it happened to them

    ^ ^ This.  Afro


    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 11:14 AM
    I havn't spoken to raped pregnant women although I have read reports of such women who had an abortion and thereafter they are struck by grief twice over.

    I've spoken to a couple of rape victims who are against abortion even if it was the product of a rape though.

    And what of the women who have a different opinion?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #112 - June 06, 2009, 11:38 AM
    From James' viewpoints, many women, girls and even my own mother are murderers.

    This thread is  wacko
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #113 - June 06, 2009, 11:43 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on June 06, 2009, 10:18 AM
    You are saying that: the existence of a instance/token of a "growing child" class/type is dependent on the existence of a instance/token of a "pregnant mother" class/type exactly like the existence of a instance/token of a "drowning child" is dependent on the existence of a instance/token of a "saving agent"


    Your saying that it could not be a different mother, but it could be a different person walking into the house and finding the drowning child. Can you tell me how that is relevant, though? If I tweak the scenario so that there is only you and the drowning child left in the world, then it could not be anybody else in the scenario, but the moral issue is exactly the same; you would be morally obliged to help the child and stop them from drowning. Just as if there was only one thing in the world that could be used as a ram, and no key, then that locked door being opened is dependent upon that one ram.

    And if the fact that the child would not have existed if the mother did not exist, gives the right for the mother to take away the life of the child, why can't that principle be applied after birth aswell?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #114 - June 06, 2009, 11:46 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on June 06, 2009, 11:17 AM
    So really you haven't spoken to any women who became pregant as a result of rape so therefore your statement that you had spoken to some of them and they agree with your stance is not true.


    I never said that I spoke to a woman who had been raped and became pregnant as a result, so to be frank with you I don't know what you are talking about.

    Quote
    As to the women who have been raped, and told you that they wouldn't have aborted, well it hasn't happened to them so they honestly can't say what they would really do if it happened to them.


    The issue is not what you would really do if you were in the situation, it is what would be morally required of you were you in the situation.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #115 - June 06, 2009, 11:49 AM
    What about women who have abortions because they've had sex before marriage in a strict religious environment (say a Muslim nation) and if they get found out they will be killed by their crazy father and brother?
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #116 - June 06, 2009, 11:59 AM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:13 AM
    Are you making a judgment of my character?


    I think you were the first to make a judgement of character when you said the following:

    Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:27 PM
    Well if it is for anybody else then I condemn them of murder. I do not believe in Moral Relativism.


    I think that was extremely inappropriate for female members who may have gone through the procedure and you are labeling them murderers without knowing their feelings and circumstances.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #117 - June 06, 2009, 12:03 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 06, 2009, 11:30 AM
    It isn't self-evident at all, James. I also am aware that mashing an embryo with a spoon will damage it. However if an early-term embryo was put in front of you without you being told what it was you would not even recognise it as human. Have you seen the charts that compare embryos of various species? At an early stage humans are virtually indistinguishable from the others. There is a vast difference between and embryo and a child. I'll ask you again: do you think we should have funerals for fertilised eggs that spontaneously abort very early in the pregnancy? If you don't think we should have funerals for those "innocent children", why not?


    Since when did classification of species depend on appearances? Doesn't it depend solely on genetics? It wasn't ever going to happen that the "Tree Man" was going to be reclassified from Homo Sapien to Quercus robur.

    And as for asking me whether I believe there should be a funeral for all the fertilised eggs that abort during pregnancy. My sister had a miscarriage very very early on in pregnancy. There were no visible signs of her being pregnant, nor of the embryo. But she didn't treat it like she just had constipation, she treated it as if her child had just been killed. She was struck with grief for weeks afterwards. So if you think that in the early stages of pregnancy nobody has feelings attached to this "collection of cells" as you like to call it, then think again. And I do not believe that a funeral is a moral requirement. It is a tradition, not an issue of morality.


    Quote
    No, the law is not "in favour". The law, like me, regards it as a necessary evil under some circumstances.


    The law allows a child to be aborted up to 24 weeks into the pregnancy. I showed you a picture of a foetus that had been aborted at 24 weeks and you said it was not relevant. Can you explain yourself?

    Quote
    The practical cut off point has been set. At 24 weeks.


    And I take issue with this. See the picture of the aborted foetus at 24 weeks, although you said it was not relevant in which case you have contradicted yourself in one of 2 places, you choose which.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #118 - June 06, 2009, 12:04 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:28 AM
    Have I shown this same kind of dogmatism?

    Read what Heartbomb just quoted then ask yourself that question.  Tongue
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #119 - June 06, 2009, 12:08 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 06, 2009, 11:32 AM
    And what of the women who have a different opinion?


    Your missing the point. A number of people in this thread have tried using the appealing to emotion argument that somehow the feeling of the rape victim can justify murder. They think that rape is so bad that everybody who has been raped obviously doesn't want to keep the product of rape; a baby. I was just demonstrating that that was false and that there are many women whose emotional tendencies do not get the better of their rational moral judgment.

    It does not matter what a woman has gone through, I would not honour them with the liberty to kill an innocent child. This kind of morality of sacrificing human beings strikes similar to the Bible and the Qur'an.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
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