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Theme Changer

 Topic: Abortion?

 (Read 46403 times)
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  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #150 - June 06, 2009, 01:05 PM
    Quote from: heartbomb on June 06, 2009, 12:40 PM
    James, are you a vegetarian?


    No.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #151 - June 06, 2009, 01:07 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 06, 2009, 12:44 PM
    I expect you'd be calling my mother a murderer because she agreed to turn off the life support for my father when he was in a coma.


    Possibly, yes.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #152 - June 06, 2009, 01:10 PM
     Cheesy Amazing. And you honestly can't see your own dogmatism?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #153 - June 06, 2009, 01:13 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 06, 2009, 01:10 PM
    Cheesy Amazing. And you honestly can't see your own dogmatism?


    Your deluded, osmanthus. I said possibly. It is probably the most un-dogmatic word I could have used.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #154 - June 06, 2009, 01:14 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 01:13 PM
    Your deluded, osmanthus. I said possibly. It is probably the most un-dogmatic word I could have used.


    If you could possibly count someone as a murderer for turning off her husbands life support machine when he was in a coma, then it is you who are deluded.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #155 - June 06, 2009, 01:18 PM
    No, I'm not deluded. I'm amused. You have just admitted that you might consider my mother to be a murderer. Tell me, under what circumstances would you regard her as a murderer? Let's see if you can answer that without getting dogmatic about it. 
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #156 - June 06, 2009, 01:23 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 01:05 PM
    No.


    So you are eating lot's of murdered animals? How does that not make you criminal?
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #157 - June 06, 2009, 01:24 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 06, 2009, 01:18 PM
    No, I'm not deluded. I'm amused. You have just admitted that you might consider my mother to be a murderer. Tell me, under what circumstances would you regard her as a murderer? Let's see if you can answer that without getting dogmatic about it.  


    Hey, my mum's in the murderer box too! She had an abortion.

    At this rate, a fair portion of the world's population would be on the same boat.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #158 - June 06, 2009, 01:26 PM
    Quote from: heartbomb on June 06, 2009, 01:23 PM
    So you are eating lot's of murdered meat? How does that not make you criminal?


    I believe non-human animals are lesser creatures to us with less rights. It is currently an issue I am giving a lot of thought to, so if you ask me for an underlying moral principle that defines exactly what rights are given to humans and what rights are given to non-human animals I will most likely not be able to answer it.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #159 - June 06, 2009, 01:27 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 06, 2009, 01:14 PM
    If you could possibly count someone as a murderer for turning off her husbands life support machine when he was in a coma, then it is you who are deluded.


    Now that's dogmatism!
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #160 - June 06, 2009, 01:28 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 01:26 PM
    I believe non-human animals are lesser creatures to us with less rights. It is currently an issue I am giving a lot of thought to, so if you ask me for an underlying moral principle that defines exactly what rights are given to humans and what rights are given to non-human animals I will most likely not be able to answer it.


    And who decides that they are lesser creatures? Imo, that's very arrogant.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #161 - June 06, 2009, 01:29 PM
    Quote from: heartbomb on June 06, 2009, 01:24 PM
    Hey, my mum's in the murderer box too! She had an abortion.

    At this rate, a fair portion of the world's population would be on the same boat.


    Just because lots of people do it, doesn't make it right. Though I accept that it is easier to go along with the majority than the minority.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #162 - June 06, 2009, 01:31 PM
    Quote from: heartbomb on June 06, 2009, 01:28 PM
    And who decides that they are lesser creatures? Imo, that's very arrogant.


    Well there are food chains which make the world balanced. I think it would be very arrogant to think that you can just mess about with food chains without realizing the harms you would be producing.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #163 - June 06, 2009, 01:32 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 01:29 PM
    Just because lots of people do it, doesn't make it right. Though I accept that it is easier to go along with the majority than the minority.


    It has nothing to do with what's trendy. Euthanasia and abortion are procedures which are not easy for ANYONE. It's seriously delusional for you to think that people who carry out these acts are doing it because it's socially accepted. Euthanasia is illegal in a lot of countries and people still go out of their way to get it done and subsequently risk being frowned upon by their peers. It's not something you do to be socially accepted, it's something you do because you feel it is the appropriate decision in the circumstances.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #164 - June 06, 2009, 01:33 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 01:31 PM
    Well there are food chains which make the world balanced. I think it would be very arrogant to think that you can just mess about with food chains without realizing the harms you would be producing.


    I think vegetarians would disagree with you on that one.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #165 - June 06, 2009, 01:38 PM
    Quote from: heartbomb on June 06, 2009, 01:32 PM
    It has nothing to do with what's trendy. Euthanasia and abortion are procedures which are not easy for ANYONE. It's seriously delusional for you to think that people who carry out these acts are doing it because it's socially accepted. Euthanasia is illegal in a lot of countries and people still go out of their way to get it done and subsequently risk being frowned upon by their peers. It's not something you do to be socially accepted, it's something you do because you feel it is the appropriate decision in the circumstances.


    Who said I believe that people who believe abortion and euthanasia to be acceptable are just following social trends? I said what I said because you said this, which doesn't bring any substance to this debate in the slightest:

    Quote
    Hey, my mum's in the murderer box too! She had an abortion.

    At this rate, a fair portion of the world's population would be on the same boat.


    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #166 - June 06, 2009, 01:41 PM
    Quote from: heartbomb on June 06, 2009, 01:33 PM
    I think vegetarians would disagree with you on that one.


    Well I challenge them to defend their beliefs. I run into many logical absurdities when I follow vegetarianism through to its logical conclusions, and I would like to see how vegetarians cope with these logical absurdities. I won't be going through them here, I have already done so on a few other threads.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #167 - June 06, 2009, 01:43 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 01:29 PM
    Just because lots of people do it, doesn't make it right. Though I accept that it is easier to go along with the majority than the minority.


    That statement is ridiculous in the context of abortion, because abortion rates are generally higher in countries with restrictive abortion laws than in more liberal societies where it is generally accepted.  Latin America has some of the highest abortion rates in the world, (nearly half of all abortions performed annually are carried out in Latin America), despite the fact that abortion is completely illegal in some of those countries, and very restricted in others.

    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/ib_0599.html
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #168 - June 06, 2009, 01:43 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 01:38 PM
    Who said I believe that people who believe abortion and euthanasia to be acceptable are just following social trends?

    You said it right here:

    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 01:29 PM
    Just because lots of people do it, doesn't make it right. Though I accept that it is easier to go along with the majority than the minority.

    The implication is that less people would do it if it were not socially acceptable, ergo some of those who are currently doing it are doing so because it is socially acceptable, ergo they are following social trends.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #169 - June 06, 2009, 01:46 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 06, 2009, 01:18 PM
    No, I'm not deluded. I'm amused. You have just admitted that you might consider my mother to be a murderer. Tell me, under what circumstances would you regard her as a murderer? Let's see if you can answer that without getting dogmatic about it. 

    Bumping this question, just in case anyone happens to have the memory of a fish.  Wink
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #170 - June 06, 2009, 01:50 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 06, 2009, 01:43 PM
    You said it right here:
    The implication is that less people would do it if it were not socially acceptable, ergo some of those who are currently doing it are doing so because it is socially acceptable, ergo they are following social trends.


    Oh come on osmanthus. That was a reply to heartbomb who said that most of the world would be considered murderers. I was responding to that by saying that it cannot be used as a justification to allow abortion.

    Are you having difficulty with this or are you deliberately giving me a hard time?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #171 - June 06, 2009, 01:53 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 06, 2009, 01:46 PM
    Bumping this question, just in case anyone happens to have the memory of a fish.   Wink


    Your talking about youself, right?

    I already said I won't be discussing euthanasia as I have not familiarised myself with the issue.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #172 - June 06, 2009, 01:54 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 01:50 PM
    Oh come on osmanthus. That was a reply to heartbomb who said that most of the world would be considered murderers. I was responding to that by saying that it cannot be used as a justification to allow abortion.

    Are you having difficulty with this or are you deliberately giving me a hard time?


    And what say to the fact that abortion rates are higher in countries where it is illegal/highly restricted than in countries where it is freely available?  If you're serious about regarding abortion as murder, you should go with the option that makes it less likely to happen, yes?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #173 - June 06, 2009, 01:58 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 06, 2009, 01:54 PM
    And what say to the fact that abortion rates are higher in countries where it is illegal/highly restricted than in countries where it is freely available?  If you're serious about regarding abortion as murder, you should go with the option that makes it less likely to happen, yes?


    That's a good question and I'm not sure what the answer is. Something is telling me that on principle it should be illegal and that we should do what we can to prevent it from happening.

    If there were statistics that showed that countries without any legislation against rape had less instances of rape than in countries with legislation against rape, would you want to change the law so that it is no longer illegal to rape?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #174 - June 06, 2009, 02:04 PM
    Quote
    That's a good question and I'm not sure what the answer is. Something is telling me that on principle it should be illegal and that we should do what we can to prevent it from happening.


    What, even though you regard abortion as the murder of a baby, and following your principle of making it illegal would lead to more abortions?  Your principles are more important than stopping baby-murders?

    Quote
    If there were statistics that showed that countries without any legislation against rape had less instances of rape than in countries with legislation against rape, would you want to change the law so that it is no longer illegal to rape?


    But there aren't, are there?  Evidence that decriminalising rape would lead to less rape is non-existent, whereas evidence that liberalising abortion laws leads to a drop in abortion rates, and a particularly sharp drop in late abortions is already in front of us.

    So what say you about that?  Stick to your principles even though it leads to an increase in something you regard as evil?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #175 - June 06, 2009, 02:13 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 06, 2009, 02:04 PM
    What, even though you regard abortion as the murder of a baby, and following your principle of making it illegal would lead to more abortions?  Your principles are more important than stopping baby-murders?

    But there aren't, are there?  Evidence that decriminalising rape would lead to less rape is non-existent, whereas evidence that liberalising abortion laws leads to a drop in abortion rates, and a particularly sharp drop in late abortions is already in front of us.

    So what say you about that?  Stick to your principles even though it leads to an increase in something you regard as evil?



    Damn, Cheetah's got skillz. All hail the masterdebater!

    James it's like she got you caught in a steel trap. You might have to chew your own leg off to survive.

    Seriously, Cheetah, I'm fuckin impressed. Smiley
    fuck you
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #176 - June 06, 2009, 02:14 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 06, 2009, 02:04 PM
    But there aren't, are there?  Evidence that decriminalising rape would lead to less rape is non-existent, whereas evidence that liberalising abortion laws leads to a drop in abortion rates, and a particularly sharp drop in late abortions is already in front of us.


    Hang on, your not trying to avoid the question, are you? Honestly, it was a sincere question, I expect a sincere answer.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #177 - June 06, 2009, 02:14 PM
    Lol.   Narcissist
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #178 - June 06, 2009, 02:15 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 02:14 PM
    Hang on, your not trying to avoid the question, are you? Honestly, it was a sincere question, I expect a sincere answer.


    Ha!  Start chewing, your leg is caught. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #179 - June 06, 2009, 02:15 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 01:58 PM
    If there were statistics that showed that countries without any legislation against rape had less instances of rape than in countries with legislation against rape, would you want to change the law so that it is no longer illegal to rape?


    That's the question.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
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