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Theme Changer

 Topic: Abortion?

 (Read 46370 times)
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  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #210 - June 17, 2009, 09:04 PM
    Quote from: Glen on June 17, 2009, 08:24 PM
    Well do you draw the line at human fetus that knows and feels nothing, but you cant give a shit that millions of animals die horrific and painful deaths everyday just so you can stuff your faces. Dont talk about the sanctity of life.


    Hmmm, I've noticed this twice now - it seems that pro-choicers seem to think pro-lifers must be vegetarians. Against abortion, therefore, must be against killing animals? This is far from logical. You value life yourself, right? Afterall, murder is wrong. So shouldn't you be a vegetarian?

    Don't bother replying, your argument SUCKS ASS, just admit it to yourself, then get over it.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #211 - June 17, 2009, 09:33 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 17, 2009, 08:19 PM
    Just read your introductory thread, M. and I want to ask you a question:

    When you say you were once pro-choice, was that when you left Roman Catholicism? And did you become pro-life when you converted back to Roman Catholicism?


    Yes, it was more or less that way...

    But when I reverted back to Christianity- I was not sure about abortion...I had some doubts...
    I didnt understand the passion of the "pro- lifers"...

    but since then I had reality checks- one was Dr Nathansons's testimony...or really good articles I read...
    then Mother Theresa from Calcutta was very strongly against abortion and I admire her greatly..
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #212 - June 17, 2009, 09:41 PM
    Why do you admire Theresa? What is admirable about torturing patients in your care?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #213 - June 17, 2009, 09:46 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 17, 2009, 09:41 PM
    Why do you admire Theresa? What is admirable about torturing patients in your care?


    Mother Teresa tortured people  Huh?

    @M - do you think abortion should be illegal?  And if so, do you think there should be any exemptions to the law, or do you believe in a blanket ban in all circumstances?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #214 - June 17, 2009, 10:11 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 17, 2009, 09:46 PM
    Mother Teresa tortured people  Huh?

    @M - do you think abortion should be illegal?  And if so, do you think there should be any exemptions to the law, or do you believe in a blanket ban in all circumstances?


    He probably means that allegedly she didnt give the patients strong pain killers...

    I doubt she could afford them- and the critics could build their own houses for the poor- and give them pain killers to their heart content... Roll Eyes

    but...is it not a red herring ?  Roll Eyes

    I am not sure how the law should solve the problem...

    I am only sure what a Christian should do- and that is never to abort the child...I hope I would have a strengh to keep my baby even in most extreme situation...



  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #215 - June 17, 2009, 10:22 PM
    Quote from: M. on June 17, 2009, 09:33 PM
    Yes, it was more or less that way...

    But when I reverted back to Christianity- I was not sure about abortion...I had some doubts...
    I didnt understand the passion of the "pro- lifers"...

    but since then I had reality checks- one was Dr Nathansons's testimony...or really good articles I read...
    then Mother Theresa from Calcutta was very strongly against abortion and I admire her greatly..


    So would you agree that you are pro-life because your religion tells you to be?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #216 - June 17, 2009, 10:24 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 17, 2009, 09:46 PM
    Mother Teresa tortured people  Huh?


    Have you not watched Penn & Teller's "Bullshit!"?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #217 - June 17, 2009, 10:27 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 17, 2009, 10:24 PM
    Have you not watched Penn & Teller's "Bullshit!"?


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_GnogRZHi8&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo%2Egoogle%2Eco%2Euk%2Fvideosearch%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dpenn%2520%2526%2520teller%2520bullshit%2520mother%2520theresa%26um%3D1%26ie%3DUTF%2D8%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwv&feature=player_embedded
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDPpgQhuKAs&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo%2Egoogle%2Eco%2Euk%2Fvideosearch%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dpenn%2520%2526%2520teller%2520bullshit%2520mother%2520theresa%26um%3D1%26ie%3DUTF%2D8%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwv&feature=player_embedded
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu3ilgK6MKQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo%2Egoogle%2Eco%2Euk%2Fvideosearch%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dpenn%2520%2526%2520teller%2520bullshit%2520mother%2520theresa%26um%3D1%26ie%3DUTF%2D8%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwv&feature=player_embedded
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #218 - June 17, 2009, 10:29 PM
    Quote
    I am not sure how the law should solve the problem...

    I am only sure what a Christian should do- and that is never to abort the child...I hope I would have a strengh to keep my baby even in most extreme situation...


    Well, I'm not a Christian, but I would share the attitude you stated above.  However, I don't think I, or you, have the right to judge any woman who doesn't share our attitude. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #219 - June 17, 2009, 10:35 PM
    Not only was Mother Theresa a sadist, but she was also an atheist.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #220 - June 17, 2009, 11:05 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 17, 2009, 10:35 PM
    Not only was Mother Theresa a sadist, but she was also an atheist.

     Huh?
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  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #221 - June 17, 2009, 11:11 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 17, 2009, 11:05 PM
    Huh?


    Watch the vids I posted! Smiley
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #222 - June 18, 2009, 08:08 AM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 17, 2009, 09:04 PM
    Hmmm, I've noticed this twice now - it seems that pro-choicers seem to think pro-lifers must be vegetarians. Against abortion, therefore, must be against killing animals? This is far from logical. You value life yourself, right? Afterall, murder is wrong. So shouldn't you be a vegetarian?

    Don't bother replying, your argument SUCKS ASS, just admit it to yourself, then get over it.


    lol Sucks ass eh?

    Look, all im saying is, pro lifers have more effection for a fetus that has no feeling or sense of self or any memory, its as good as a lump of flesh. They seem to want to save that and talk about how important life is, but they will eat life i.e animals. Your hypocrites.

    I wont admit anything you tell me, thanks.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #223 - June 18, 2009, 09:52 AM
    Quote from: Glen on June 18, 2009, 08:08 AM

    Look, all im saying is, pro lifers have more effection for a fetus that has no feeling or sense of self or any memory, its as good as a lump of flesh. They seem to want to save that and talk about how important life is, but they will eat life i.e animals. Your hypocrites.



    How about you tell me what species this "lump of flesh" is, eh?  grin12
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #224 - June 18, 2009, 10:15 AM
    Im sure you can work it out yourself.

    Do you think a Human fetus in early development is more worth saving that a fully feeling chicken? if so why?

    And is it worth saving so it can suffer in an unwanted and unloved family? or be the child of a rape victim?
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #225 - June 18, 2009, 07:35 PM
    Quote from: Glen on June 18, 2009, 10:15 AM

    Do you think a Human fetus in early development is more worth saving that a fully feeling chicken? if so why?



    Ofcourse it is more worth saving! That's a no-brainer! Thousands if not millions of chickens are slaughtered every single day for food! In East Asia people work for 8pence an hour and all they do is swing a blade round above their head over and over again cutting off the heads of chickens! I have no problem with that whatsoever as long as the food is actually going to be used to feed people and that the chicken species does not become endangered by it. I believe that non-human animals can only serve a mostly instrumental existence to human kind, and I think that I have to believe this if I am going to justify my non-vegetarianism, and I am a non-vegetarian because vegetarianism causes even greater moral and practical dilemmas. Therefore, I place the human species above any other species, and concerns the most of my ethical thinking; a human foetus at any stage of development is more worth saving than a fully feeling chicken.

    Quote
    And is it worth saving so it can suffer in an unwanted and unloved family? or be the child of a rape victim?


    When you hear about children who have been tortured all their lives by their parents in third world countries, tell me what the first thing you think is. Is it really, "I wish somebody would kill that child, so that it would not suffer in an unwanted and unloved family"? Or do you instead think "I wish somebody would save that child and give him/her a life free from fear and pain." I am inclined to think the latter, and the same applies to the unborn child who have parents who have apparent violent ways.

    I am aware that rape is a very sensitive issue for anyone who is a victim of it. I understand the amount of hurt that they must have gone through and every time I hear of such a case I wish that I could have caught the rapist when they were about to commit the crime and baseball batted them to the head. I also understand that the baby's continued existence may bring back memories of the rapist that the victim would rather forget (though I find it farfetched to suggest that the baby will permanently remind the victim of the rapist). But I do not believe that any amount of hurt a person could go through could afford them the privilege of being at liberty to take away another human being's life. From such a line of argument that the pro-choicer takes, it would make more sense to kill the rapist, but even that I would not support.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #226 - June 18, 2009, 07:55 PM
    ^^ i think we shall have to agree to disagree then.

    Life is life, i dont see why, apart form emotional reasons and perhaps survival reasons, human life is more important than any other life.

    and the example you use about wanting all children in abusive families to be killed is a little stupid but you bring up a good point.

    Every person suffers, life isnt all its cracked up to be. For some people, their life is nothing but pain, starvation, hunger and loss. I dont happen to think there is anything great about life.

    However that doesnt mean i think all living things might as well be killed now, all im saying is life doesnt amount to much in the end, and just allowing someone to be born just for the sake of 'life' just to suffer isnt very nice imo.

    But i agree, its a very complex issue, and i happen to think every single abortion case should be looked at as an individual case and should take into consideration all aspects, not forgetting the people who are already suffering any consequence let alone a fetus.

  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #227 - June 18, 2009, 10:21 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 17, 2009, 10:22 PM
    So would you agree that you are pro-life because your religion tells you to be?


    If you want to put it way...yes...

    But I gave the example of Dr Nathanson who was as he said an "atheist Jew" and yet the ultrasound image convinced him that it is a child who gets murder not some gelly...only later he converted to christianity...

    Quote from: J4m3z on June 17, 2009, 10:35 PM
    Not only was Mother Theresa a sadist, but she was also an atheist.


    Yep- and a Martian too...Please read her letters- there is a book called "Come, be my light"- she experienced the "dark night" which is quite common to mystics, saints even plain believers- but that is an off top...

    @Cheetah I think we should judge no one...we have no right...

    ......................................

    But lately I heard another interesting story- call it bad karma returned or as you like...maybe plain coincidence...I dont know...

    Quote
    Family of Irving ?Bud? Feldkamp, Owner of the Nation?s Largest Privately Owned Abortion Chain, Dies in Montana Plane Crash
    (...)
    The plane went down on Sunday, killing two of Feldkamp?s daughters, two sons-in-law and five grandchildren along with the pilot and four family friends. The plane, a single-engine turboprop flown by Bud Summerfield of Highland, crashed into the Catholic cemetery and burst into flames, only 500 ft. from its landing destination. All aboard were killed.
    (...)
    The family who died in the crash near the location of the abortion victim?s memorial, is the family of Irving ?Bud? Feldkamp, owner of the largest for-profit abortion chain in the nation.

  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #228 - June 18, 2009, 10:49 PM
    Quote from: Glen on June 18, 2009, 07:55 PM
    ^^ i think we shall have to agree to disagree then.

    Life is life, i dont see why, apart form emotional reasons and perhaps survival reasons, human life is more important than any other life.


    Either your a vegetarian or you think farming, killing, eating humans isn't immoral. Which one is it?

    Quote
    and the example you use about wanting all children in abusive families to be killed is a little stupid but you bring up a good point.


    It was both stupid and a good point? :S It seems a lot of pro-choicers don't like the thought experiments I have devised by myself, but they don't tell me what is wrong with them. I haven't a clue why *shrugs*

    Quote
    Every person suffers, life isnt all its cracked up to be. For some people, their life is nothing but pain, starvation, hunger and loss. I dont happen to think there is anything great about life.

    However that doesnt mean i think all living things might as well be killed now, all im saying is life doesnt amount to much in the end, and just allowing someone to be born just for the sake of 'life' just to suffer isnt very nice imo.


    Well that is what is wrong with you then Smiley So I take it you don't care much for charity then? I mean, all it's going to is promoting life. I know, more of that stuff! How depressing...

    Quote
    But i agree, its a very complex issue, and i happen to think every single abortion case should be looked at as an individual case and should take into consideration all aspects, not forgetting the people who are already suffering any consequence let alone a fetus.




    A number of different scenarios have been covered in this thread. There isn't a huge number that we can't go through them all, to be honest. Unless your trying to be ultra-sceptical and say that literally every single abortion case is different so a general rule shouldn't be devised until we have considered each individual case. In which case, you would have to say the same for cases of murder and of rape, in order to remain coherent.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #229 - June 18, 2009, 10:56 PM
    Quote from: M. on June 18, 2009, 10:21 PM
    If you want to put it way...yes...


    So your admitting that you are only against abortion because your religion says so...

    Do you not see anything wrong with that?

    You wouldn't fare well in an ethical argument then...
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #230 - June 20, 2009, 09:08 AM
    J4m3z;

    Im not a vegetarian, and i actually work for a charity with adults with learning disability.

    Dont jump to  conclusions that just because im pro choice and see inconsistency with 'pro' lifers views on abortion as a sanctity of life debate - means we shouldnt care for people already alive.

    also i said you brought up a good point because you highlighted all the suffering in the world.

    So i think your a hypocrite, for some reason your 'pro' life for a fetus but your 'pro' life stance only goes that far.

    You still didnt answer my question, if your 'pro life', why do you think the life of a fetus that has no sense of self is above animal life? life is life isnt it? i thought you were pro life? or is it only for human fetus that dosent know jack shit?

    How come with humans its 'abortion' and its so horrible, but with chickens its called an omlette?

    As always, mr Carlin sums it up nicely;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX_0MVOUytU&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdoveGk78GU&feature=related
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #231 - June 20, 2009, 09:26 AM
    Quote from: Glen on June 20, 2009, 09:08 AM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX_0MVOUytU&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdoveGk78GU&feature=related

     Cheesy
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  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #232 - June 20, 2009, 10:50 PM
    Quote from: Glen on June 20, 2009, 09:08 AM
    How come with humans its 'abortion' and its so horrible, but with chickens its called an omlette?

     rofl Punk
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #233 - June 21, 2009, 01:34 AM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 17, 2009, 10:24 PM
    Have you not watched Penn & Teller's "Bullshit!"?


    Dammit! I was gonna go to the bar/restaurant next door and get a burger but I got sucked in by those videos you posted.

    Mostly good, but a few criticisms:

    1. Interviewing Gandhi's grandson for the pro-Mahatma view then ripping his statements to shreds through careful editing and counterpoints he can't directly respond to? Dirty fuckin pool, man. The guy is is his fuckin grandson, what the fuck would anyone expect him to say? Yes, Gandhi had many faults, but using the words of his own grandson to illustrate them seemed unnecessarily nasty to me.

    2. Penn and Teller grossly oversimplified the Dalai Lama's views on violence (just as most of his Western supporters do). The Dalai Lama has made it explicit that he has no problem with violence as a means of self-defense. That bein said, I mostly agree with Parenti, and am impressed Penn and Teller interviewed him considering the fact they probably disagree with Parenti on a lot of shit.

    3. The last bit with Christopher Hitchens where he basically says faith is destructive and not a virtue. I disagree. It has its place. A society without any faith (not necessarily in the religious, but in something or someone, some universal principle, or a friend or family member) is morally lost. Blind faith is another matter.

    Fuck it-- time to get my burger and another beer.
    fuck you
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #234 - June 21, 2009, 02:02 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on June 21, 2009, 01:34 AM
    3. The last bit with Christopher Hitchens where he basically says faith is destructive and not a virtue. I disagree. It has its place. A society without any faith (not necessarily in the religious, but in something or someone, some universal principle, or a friend or family member) is morally lost. Blind faith is another matter.

    Do you really believe this, or was this an off the cuff comment
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #235 - June 21, 2009, 04:57 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 21, 2009, 02:02 PM
    Do you really believe this, or was this an off the cuff comment


    It was an off the cuff comment, but I believe it. Faith which cannot be challenged with any amount of reason or evidence is often a bad thing (depending on what that faith is), but I think some level of faith in someone or something, to where you will give the idea or the person the benefit of the doubt when challenged, is a good thing. And it's a good thing for society. I don't want to live in a world where everyone blindly sticks by their beliefs, no matter what evidence may contradict them, but I also don't want to live in a world where everyone is cynical and doubtful of everything. Faith may be overrated as a virtue, but it still can be a virtue, and in some cases I think is necessary for a functioning society.

    Furthermore, even blind faith isn't always necessarily bad. Let's say you blindly believe in God and that God is always good. You live a good life, and other than your faith in God, you let reason guide you. You don't unfairly discriminate against others for differing beliefs or practices. In such a case, what is the harm of blind faith?
    fuck you
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #236 - June 21, 2009, 06:11 PM
    I would suggest excluding ad hominem arguments from this debate...

    It is hardly educational and the topic is important...

    Fact for you:

    RU-486 which is an abortive pill is produced by the Roussel Uclaf Group...

    the group is a part of big chemical and pharmaceutical German concern Hoechst previously known as I.G. Farben (till 1951)

    Quote from: Wikipedia
    IG Farben built a factory (named Buna Chemical Plant) for producing synthetic oil and rubber (from coal) in Auschwitz, which was the beginning of SS activity and camps in this location during the Holocaust. At its peak in 1944, this factory made use of 83,000 slave laborers.[22] The pesticide Zyklon B, for which IG Farben held the patent, was manufactured by Degesch (Deutsche Gesellschaft f?r Sch?dlingsbek?mpfung), which IG Farben owned 42.2 percent of (in shares) and which had IG Farben managers in its Managing Committee.

    Of the 24 directors of IG Farben indicted in the so-called IG Farben Trial (1947-1948) before a U.S. military tribunal at the subsequent Nuremberg Trials, 13 were sentenced to prison terms between one and eight years. Some of those indicted in the trial were subsequently made leaders of the post-war companies that split off from IG Farben, including those who were sentenced at Nuremberg.

  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #237 - June 21, 2009, 06:26 PM
    What you've posted above IS an ad hom.  More specifically, its called Poisoning the Well - associate a company which produces the abortion pill, (never mind that it also produces chemotherapy products, antibiotics, agricultural products and many other things), with another company which has a dodgy history.  Therefore, abortionists are the new Nazis, yada yada.   Roll Eyes

    Btw, the Nazis also outlawed a woman's right to choose.  The only abortions allowed under the Nazis were ones that the state forced members of "undesirable" groups to undergo.

    "Legalization of abortion was first widely discussed in Germany during the early 20th century. During the Weimar Republic, this discussion led to a reduction in the maximum penalty for abortion, and in 1927 to the legalization - by court decision - of abortion in cases of grave danger to the life of the mother.

    In Nazi Germany, the penalties for abortion were increased again. From 1943, abortion was threatened with the death penalty. [1] On the other hand, abortion was at times forced upon members of parts of society that were considered undesirable."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Germany
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #238 - June 21, 2009, 07:58 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 21, 2009, 06:26 PM
    What you've posted above IS an ad hom.  More specifically, its called Poisoning the Well - associate a company which produces the abortion pill, (never mind that it also produces chemotherapy products, antibiotics, agricultural products and many other things), with another company which has a dodgy history.  Therefore, abortionists are the new Nazis, yada yada.   Roll Eyes

    This is exactly what I thought as soon as I saw your post, M. You are adopting the tactics you claim to deplore. If we are going to bring up the Nazis (Godwin's Law FTW) then perhaps we should also bring up the collusion of the Catholic Church with the Nazis since apparently both groups were against legalising abortion.  Wink
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #239 - June 22, 2009, 01:48 AM
    Quote from: Glen on June 20, 2009, 09:08 AM
    J4m3z;

    Im not a vegetarian, and i actually work for a charity with adults with learning disability.

    Dont jump to  conclusions that just because im pro choice and see inconsistency with 'pro' lifers views on abortion as a sanctity of life debate - means we shouldnt care for people already alive.

    also i said you brought up a good point because you highlighted all the suffering in the world.

    So i think your a hypocrite, for some reason your 'pro' life for a fetus but your 'pro' life stance only goes that far.

    You still didnt answer my question, if your 'pro life', why do you think the life of a fetus that has no sense of self is above animal life? life is life isnt it? i thought you were pro life? or is it only for human fetus that dosent know jack shit?

    How come with humans its 'abortion' and its so horrible, but with chickens its called an omlette?

    As always, mr Carlin sums it up nicely;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX_0MVOUytU&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdoveGk78GU&feature=related


    You didn't get it when I asked you whether you were a vegetarian or you do not believe that farming humans is immoral, so I shall explain. You said that life is life. That is, human life isn't any more important than, say, a chicken's life. Now there are two possibilities from here. Two logical possibilities. You accused me of jumping to conclusions about you, but you didn't realize that I wasn't jumping to conclusions I was merely stating logical possibilities, so here they are spelt out clearly for you to read easily. Either you value human and animals life greatly (vegetarian) or you value human and animal life little (farming chickens is okay and so then farming humans isn't okay).

    So I will have to repeat my question to you again, you're either a vegetarian or you think farming, killing, then eating human beings is not immoral. So which is it?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
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