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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: What to do about the crow and bunny (see below)
  • Keep driving and forget about it. Let nature sort itself out. - 6 (33.3%)
  • Scare Crow away and hope that bunny makes a miraculous revovery before crow returns. - 3 (16.7%)
  • Cancel plans, take bunny home and raise a special needs bunny for as long as it lives. - 5 (27.8%)
  • Put bunny out of his misery by backing over him with your car. - 4 (22.2%)
  • Call someone else to do something. - 0 (0%)
  • Total Voters: 18

 Topic: Moral dilemma

 (Read 5385 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Moral dilemma
     OP - June 05, 2009, 01:12 PM
    I was driving home from home depot yesterday and I noticed on the side of the road was a bunny. The bunny was laying on his stomach with his head up and eyes wide open. Standing behind the bunny was a big black crow who was pecking the bunny in the back. The bunny was flinching everytime the crow pecked, but did not move from the spot. Now, either this bunny and crow were friends and the crow was helpfully removing ticks from the bunny, or the bunny had been crippled by a car and the crow was getting a head start on his dinner. I assumed the latter. The question was, what if anything should I do about it? Please answer the poll and I will reveal how it unfolded later.

    BTongueB
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #1 - June 05, 2009, 01:15 PM
    Ideally I'd help but realistically I'd probably go for option 1. If I walking rather than driving then I'd be more likely to go help it out.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #2 - June 05, 2009, 01:45 PM
    Kill the bunny. It's humane. Though backing over it with your car might not be the most effective way. If you could legally discharge a firearm there, that would be best, but if not, I'd probably go with a hammer strike to the skull, which would kill it quickly.

    Yeah, it had to have been torture for that bunny, slowly dying and having a bird peck it apart.
    fuck you
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #3 - June 05, 2009, 01:51 PM
    Was the bunnies name prometheus by any chance?  Tongue

    I probably would have stopped and tried to help, car or not.  No idea what I would have done, but shooing the bird off would have been the first one, after that I would have been lost.  wacko

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #4 - June 05, 2009, 03:24 PM
    I can not just walk away and let nature sort itself out as it was not nature that ran over the bunny. I will scare away the bird and then get a head start on *my* dinner.

    And just cause the bunny is not moving it does not mean it will not get better in couple hours or in the morning.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #5 - June 05, 2009, 04:29 PM
    Quote from: Baal on June 05, 2009, 03:24 PM
    I can not just walk away and let nature sort itself out as it was not nature that ran over the bunny.


    I would have thought the situation was the same, it doesn't matter what happened preceeding the event.

    This really would be a moral dilemma for me, because I have absolutely no idea when it comes to the topic of animal rights. I put the first one, because I'm inclined to think of non-human animals in the same way I think of plants. I treat plants with kindness and I treat animals with kindness, yet I eat them both. So I guess if I saw a plant had been run over, I wouldn't do anything about it. But then again I have a cat which I treat which I treat like a person... usually. Like if it wanted to go away from me I would let it.

    Maybe I ought to read up on the philosophy of animal rights. Would be interesting.

    And who would back up and run it over?? Cheesy
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #6 - June 05, 2009, 04:32 PM
    Quote from: Baal on June 05, 2009, 03:24 PM
    I can not just walk away and let nature sort itself out as it was not nature that ran over the bunny.


    It was nature that ran over the bunny. Human nature allowed humans to invent the car. The crow saw a dying bunny and decided that was its tea. Although, I probably would have killed the bunny, to put it out of its misery.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #7 - June 05, 2009, 05:11 PM
    I'd stop and pick up the bunny and take it to the vet.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #8 - June 05, 2009, 05:37 PM
    Well I didn't really have time to pick up the bunny and take it somewhere, but he was in obvious pain from the pecking so I decided to put it out of it's misery. I didn't have any tools to do this with and I'm not really a hands-on kinda guy so I figured that if I ran over him quickly, the whole killing part would be over in a fraction of a second, the crow could finish his meal and the bunny would be sent to heaven (or hell if it was a bad bunny). I really think this was the best solution.  Best for me, the bunny and the crow. Well, it would have been if the stupid crow had gotten out of the way like he was supposed to.

    Oh well.
    The next crow gets dinner AND breakfast.

    B015B

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #9 - June 05, 2009, 06:05 PM
    Seriously, the crow bit the dust too?  Why didnt fly away?

    Must be Karma, and some rat will enjoy the crow as much as the crow was enjoying the rabbit.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #10 - June 05, 2009, 06:20 PM
    I would try to scare the crow away. It's road kill, the authorities would probably do little.
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #11 - June 05, 2009, 06:32 PM
    Either 2 or 3, depending on how cute the bunny is. Though probably, if I got down from my car to scare off the crow, I would be tempted to pick up the poor rabbit. I've always wanted to have a pet bunny anyway, and I have a weak spot for crippled animals.
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #12 - June 05, 2009, 06:34 PM
    Zaephon - would you have gone for a sixth option - put it in a cage, and perform scientific experiments on it?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #13 - June 05, 2009, 06:42 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on June 05, 2009, 04:32 PM
    It was nature that ran over the bunny. Human nature allowed humans to invent the car. The crow saw a dying bunny and decided that was its tea. Although, I probably would have killed the bunny, to put it out of its misery.


    So some actions of nature should be condemned?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #14 - June 05, 2009, 06:45 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 05, 2009, 06:34 PM
    Zaephon - would you have gone for a sixth option - put it in a cage, and perform scientific experiments on it?


    Oooooooh. That was below the belt, that was.  Cheesy
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #15 - June 05, 2009, 06:49 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 05, 2009, 06:05 PM
    Seriously, the crow bit the dust too?  Why didnt fly away?

    Must be Karma, and some rat will enjoy the crow as much as the crow was enjoying the rabbit.




    It must have known I was coming. I was blasting the horn. I think he tried to get in one last peck and then jumped the wrong way at the last second.
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #16 - June 05, 2009, 06:51 PM
    Can I ask what people think is worse when applied to a human and when applied to a rabbit:

    a) Torture

    b) Kill

    Would be interesting if people come up with different answers for rabbit than they do for human.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #17 - June 05, 2009, 07:51 PM
    Wait a mo, I haven't answered the first bit yet.
    Well, since bunnies are far from endangered as a species and because Mr/Mrs Crow may have had a nest full of crowettes to feed, I would have (and already have have many times) tapped poor bunny on the base of the cranium with a suitable instrument to give him a quick and painless death and then moved the carcass off the highway to a safer place for crows and other scavengers to have their fill. So many critturs are run over and then wasted to Nature because they're run over again and again and again until they're not fit to join a hedgehog in a sandwich.
    And anyway, 86 % of bunnies in the UK die in their first year of life of disease or predation, mainly predation. That's why they breed like rabbits really. So in my opinion a swift tap with the car jack or similar is a humane option.
    There is no moral dilemma in helping a suffering creature to reach a cleaner death: anyone who says otherwise is talking mawkish, sentimental nonsense.
    St Tiggywinkles phooey!
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #18 - June 05, 2009, 07:58 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 06:51 PM
    Can I ask what people think is worse when applied to a human and when applied to a rabbit:

    a) Torture

    b) Kill

    Would be interesting if people come up with different answers for rabbit than they do for human.



    There's got to be something amiss with anyone who would torture either. But to kill painlessly and for the morally (I use the word advisedly this time) right reason is not wrong in my book.
    Euthanasia is a moral reason as far as I'm concerned. I just hope it's legal when I'm ready for it.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #19 - June 05, 2009, 08:17 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on June 05, 2009, 04:32 PM
    It was nature that ran over the bunny. Human nature allowed humans to invent the car. The crow saw a dying bunny and decided that was its tea. Although, I probably would have killed the bunny, to put it out of its misery.

    If we go down that line "nature allowed the car to be invented" which I considered for my argument but dropped, then we also have to go down the line that "nature allowed me to be there to effect the outcome for the bunny".

    Either way, since when did we as humans care about nature so much that suddenly "sacrificing a bunny to torture" is now a 'moral dilemma'. Bob, I agree with your decision, but I probably would have agreed to any decision you took.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #20 - June 05, 2009, 08:39 PM
    Quote from: sojournerlumus on June 05, 2009, 07:58 PM
    There's got to be something amiss with anyone who would torture either. But to kill painlessly and for the morally (I use the word advisedly this time) right reason is not wrong in my book.
    Euthanasia is a moral reason as far as I'm concerned. I just hope it's legal when I'm ready for it.


    what about killing animals for food?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #21 - June 05, 2009, 08:48 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 06:51 PM
    Can I ask what people think is worse when applied to a human and when applied to a rabbit:

    a) Torture

    b) Kill

    Would be interesting if people come up with different answers for rabbit than they do for human.




    I would think it would be the same for humans and animals, but which is worse depends on the circumstances, and in this particular case it seems highly probable the rabbit was going to die soon anyways*, Bob just sped it up so the bunny would cease suffering-- so in this case it wasn't an either/or situation.

    *I know some people are saying "take it to the vet" but, in my experience, an animal that has been run over cannot be helped by a vet. It's nearly guaranteed the vet will euthanize the animal.

    One time I was driving along the road and this dog ran right across my path out of nowhere. I slammed on the breaks but it was too late. Apparently it had gotten away from its owner because he came running right behind. Poor fuckin dog was barely breathing, clinging onto life, and the poor owner, a full-grown man, was bawling his eyes out. I stayed until animal control could come. They got the dog off the road and took it to be euthanized. It was a really shitty experience, and, needless to say the rest of my night I was pretty damn depressed. There was nothing I could've done-- it was dark, in a commercial area, I wasn't speeding but there was no time to react-- but it still feels bad to be responsible for killing someone's pet.

    Another time, when I was a teenager, a friend of mine intentionally swerved to try to hit a cat. I started screaming at him and told him if I ever saw him kill a cat I'd fuckin kill him (I love cats), and if he weren't driving I would've slugged the fucker right then and there. What a fuckin dick.

    Only had experience with a run-over bunny once, again when I was a teenager. My buddy hit it by accident, so I told him to stop the car. It died immediately, so I grabbed it and put it in the car then took it to my friend's house. I chopped off its head with a small hatchet and prepared to skin it so we could cook it up. My friends thought it was gross because it's road-kill, but fuck, it's fresh road-kill, it's not like we found it on the side of the road with flies circling it. Anyhow, when his mom saw the dead rabbit she got very upset (I made the mistake of picking the rabbit's disembodied head up by the ears and showing it to my friend's younger sister who promptly freaked the fuck out), so I had to abandon my plans for rabbit braised in garlic and wine.

    And thus end the Q-Man's disjointed run-over-animal stories. BTW, you did the right thing Bob, though next time try to find a better way to kill the animal if you can.
    fuck you
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #22 - June 05, 2009, 08:57 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 05, 2009, 06:34 PM
    Zaephon - would you have gone for a sixth option - put it in a cage, and perform scientific experiments on it?

    Depends on how cute the bunny is. whistling2
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #23 - June 05, 2009, 09:17 PM
    I would kill the bunny, it is going to die anyway.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #24 - June 05, 2009, 09:26 PM
    LOL interesting story, Q-Man. I love cats too btw. I want a Turkish Tabby.

    Quote
    I would think it would be the same for humans and animals, but which is worse depends on the circumstances


    So torturing a human is equally bad as torturing a rabbit and killing a human is equally bad as killing a rabbit?

    The reason I am asking is because I would assume that it is worse to torture a rabbit than to kill a rabbit (which isn't bad at all if it is for food) yet worse to kill a human than torture a human. If that is right then there is obviously different underlying moral principles for animals and for humans. What that difference is, I don't know and it's bugging me.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #25 - June 05, 2009, 10:17 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 09:26 PM
    LOL interesting story, Q-Man. I love cats too btw. I want a Turkish Tabby.

    So torturing a human is equally bad as torturing a rabbit and killing a human is equally bad as killing a rabbit?

    The reason I am asking is because I would assume that it is worse to torture a rabbit than to kill a rabbit (which isn't bad at all if it is for food) yet worse to kill a human than torture a human. If that is right then there is obviously different underlying moral principles for animals and for humans. What that difference is, I don't know and it's bugging me.


    That's not what I was trying to say. I simply meant that whether torture or death is worse wouldn't necessarily depend on whether it's a human or a lesser animal.

    To the question you are asking above I would say:

    1. Torture. I'd have to know more about why the animal or human was being tortured and what type of torture it was. Although I believe torture is wrong in the vast majority of cases, there are a few cases in which I believe it may be justified. In the case of torturing a human for fun vs. torturing an animal for fun, the consequentialist in me would say torturing the human is worse, but the deontological side of me would say they are equal, and since my ethics normally trend towards the deonotological, I'll err on the side of saying they're equally bad.

    2. Death. Killing a human is worse than killing a lesser animal. Humans, as animals, are omnivorous apex predators, thus the killing of a lesser animal for food or clothing is a natural outcome of our very life process, whereas killing other humans, while sometimes necessary or desirable, is not necessarily a natural outcome of our very physiology and status in the ecosystem.
    fuck you
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #26 - June 05, 2009, 10:24 PM
    So what is natural is good and what is unnatural is bad?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #27 - June 05, 2009, 10:41 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 10:24 PM
    So what is natural is good and what is unnatural is bad?


    I'm gonna start calling you Socrates, Jr.

    No, but survival justifies some acts which would otherwise be unjustified. So, just as it would not be justifiable to kill an animal for fun, but would be for food or clothing, it would be justifiable to kill a man who was threatening your life but not one that was standing on the corner minding his own business.

    Also, we are better able to empathize with other humans since they are of the same species and we cooperate with them and communicate with them as equals on a regular basis. Think of it this way-- if a man had a gun and said "I'm either going to shoot a random person you don't know or shoot your best friend, you decide, and if you don't decide I'll kill them both", which would you choose? I would hope you'd say the random person and if someone said their best friend you'd probably be suspicious of the soundness of either their mind or morals, no?
    fuck you
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #28 - June 06, 2009, 12:41 AM
    Quote from: Q-Man on June 05, 2009, 10:41 PM
    I'm gonna start calling you Socrates, Jr.


    Lol, I like that  Afro

    Quote
    No, but survival justifies some acts which would otherwise be unjustified. So, just as it would not be justifiable to kill an animal for fun, but would be for food or clothing, it would be justifiable to kill a man who was threatening your life but not one that was standing on the corner minding his own business.

    Also, we are better able to empathize with other humans since they are of the same species and we cooperate with them and communicate with them as equals on a regular basis. Think of it this way-- if a man had a gun and said "I'm either going to shoot a random person you don't know or shoot your best friend, you decide, and if you don't decide I'll kill them both", which would you choose? I would hope you'd say the random person and if someone said their best friend you'd probably be suspicious of the soundness of either their mind or morals, no?


    You make points which I agree with, but they don't seem to be finalizing an underlying moral principle which I guess is what I'm searching for.

    For example, what is it that makes it okay to kill a non-human animal for food but not okay to kill human animals for food?

    And what about animals which we would have a personal relationship with, such as a dog? Would it be okay to kill a dog for food?

    I know that some cultures do actually eat dogs and they don't seem to share our cultural views that a dog is able to be loyal to a man and therefore shouldn't be killed or eaten. What if a member of this culture who eats dogs were to take a dog as a pet? Would it be hypocritical of him that he takes one member of a given species and would vow never to be unkind to it, yet freely eat other members of the same species?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Moral dilemma
     Reply #29 - June 06, 2009, 12:52 AM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 06, 2009, 12:41 AM
    Lol, I like that  Afro

    You make points which I agree with, but they don't seem to be finalizing an underlying moral principle which I guess is what I'm searching for.


    I know, not particularly satisfying is it? Smiley But for me, pork chops tasting good and leather jackets looking fly have always been sufficient justification. Although I have a moral code that is unique to me and defies many common morals, I have to say I'm pretty good about sticking to it, so I figure I have enough worry keeping to my moral code that governs my interactions with other humans, so I don't spend too much time thinking about animals other than the fact I love my cat, hate chimpanzees, and think people who torture animals for fun are subhuman scum.

    Quote
    For example, what is it that makes it okay to kill a non-human animal for food but not okay to kill human animals for food?


    Well, if you were starving and needed money for food, would you be willing to mug a stranger? What about mugging your grandma? Personally, I'd have no issue with the former (unless I thought the man to be worse off than me), but I'd rather die than do the latter.

    Quote
    And what about animals which we would have a personal relationship with, such as a dog? Would it be okay to kill a dog for food?


    If it's not your pet (or someone else's), sure.

    Quote
    I know that some cultures do actually eat dogs and they don't seem to share our cultural views that a dog is able to be loyal to a man and therefore shouldn't be killed or eaten. What if a member of this culture who eats dogs were to take a dog as a pet? Would it be hypocritical of him that he takes one member of a given species and would vow never to be unkind to it, yet freely eat other members of the same species?


    Nope.
    fuck you
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