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Theme Changer

 Topic: If There is a God

 (Read 8469 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • If There is a God
     OP - June 07, 2009, 08:07 PM

    What will you say to him?

    "Why did you keep yourself hidden?"

    "Why did you make me suffer so?"

    "Why did you let my child die?" (He did let my child die)

    "Why didn't you answer the many prayers I made?"

    "Why did you make such a fucking horrible world?"
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #1 - June 07, 2009, 08:13 PM

    What will you say to him?

    "Why did you keep yourself hidden?"

    "Why did you make me suffer so?"

    "Why did you let my child die?" (He did let my child die)

    "Why didn't you answer the many prayers I made?"

    "Why did you make such a fucking horrible world?"


    I guess for me the first question is more than enough. Where the hell are you God?

    ...
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #2 - June 07, 2009, 08:18 PM

    "Why did you let my child die?" (He did let my child die)

     Huh? Recently?

    I would ask him for forgiveness    whistling2

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  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #3 - June 07, 2009, 08:32 PM

    Huh? Recently?


    No, in 1989.

    My daughter, Huda.

    I would ask him for forgiveness    whistling2


    Fuck that! He needs to seek MY forgiveness!

    I'm not sure I will forgive him.
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #4 - June 07, 2009, 08:39 PM

    I'm not sure I will forgive him.

    Yeah right.  Even when he threatens to boil your face?

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  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #5 - June 07, 2009, 08:53 PM

    Yeah right.  Even when he threatens to boil your face?


    Even if he threatens to boil my face. I have long struggled with such fears and and I refuse to submit to such a brutal tyrant even if it means eternal torture.

    Personally I cannot believe that such a sadistic God could possibly exist (do you?) but if he does - FUCK HIM!


  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #6 - June 07, 2009, 09:53 PM

    Personally I cannot believe that such a sadistic God could possibly exist (do you?) but if he does - FUCK HIM!

    I believe its a possibility, but not a probability

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  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #7 - June 07, 2009, 09:56 PM

    What will you say to him?

    And what will you in turn answer? But let's leave this to the end.
    Quote
    "Why did you keep yourself hidden?"

    How would you behave differently if you knew for certainty G-d exists?
    And would your words and actions reflect the true you or be only what you believe G-d wants you to say and do?
    "You look very beautiful today, Mrs. Cleaver."  Roll Eyes
    Certainty is poison to the soul.
    We're here to become better beings ethically, and this requires dedication from within--and a degree of healthy doubt.
    Quote
    "Why did you make me suffer so?"

    What did you do to lessen the suffering of others?
    Life itself is a Gift.
    And an obligation.
    Should a child blame a parent for giving him life?
    Should a parent spare its child every possible hurt?
    We (individually and a species) grow from experience, including negative experience.
    Quote
    "Why did you let my child die?" (He did let my child die)

    How sad.  My sincere condolences.
    There is no life without death.  Some heart-breakingly short.  I lost my own mother at a young age.  My reaction was different, however.  I was grateful for the time I did have with her.  They were a blessing.
    Quote
    "Why didn't you answer the many prayers I made?"

    Thank you for the prayers you did answer.
    Including the many I was too self-absorbed to acknowledge or appreciate.
    Anyway, I believe that prayer "for things" is the least of prayer--except for the prayers for peace, understanding, and strength.  Prayers in appreciation for His Gifts (Life, the Universe and Everything--for you Douglas Adams fans) are more rewarding.
    Quote
    "Why did you make such a fucking horrible world?"

    Thank you for all your Gifts, and the opportunity to become.

    As I've shared elsewhere [ http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5459.msg139246#msg139246 post #6]:

    Upon his death, a man comes before G-d's Throne of Judgement.
    "My G-d," he cries.  "It is horrible down there.  The wars, disease, the hatreds, the bigotry, the suffering.....Why didn't you do anything!!"
    The Heavenly court is shocked silent by the outburst.
    Then G-d gives a soft compassionate sigh and looks gently upon the man.
    "I did," G-d says, "I sent you."


    Now in regard to:
    Quote
    Quote
    What will you say to him?

    And what will you in turn answer?

    There is a famous passage in the Talmud, in Masechet Shabbat 31, that in the name of Rava asks and answers the question, what will be asked of you by heavenly judgment and God after your death.  We are told there are six questions we will be asked. [see, for example:  http://www.tbegreatneck.org/SERMONS/2008/HowWillYouAnswer-2008.doc ].  The first one is "did you conduct your business transactions faithfully?"  One's daily dealings will be the very first behavioral question scrutinized before the heavenly court.  Religious behavior is not confined to the home or the synagogue.   We are to bring a sense of sanctity into all areas of life.

    Have you?   Smiley

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #8 - June 07, 2009, 10:10 PM

    No, History, this is not good enough. If there is a God, he better have a better explanation of all the misery he has put me and mankind through.

    History, Habibi (do u know what that means?) I'd be interested in your thoughts on my latest video here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQI612RvYZE
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #9 - June 07, 2009, 10:32 PM

    Very nice video Hassan, I love it Smiley

    ...
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #10 - June 07, 2009, 10:42 PM

    i have same questions as you do


    i am waiting with patient  without complaint

    please read my blog, read how islam will win
    the clash of civilization.

    http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #11 - June 07, 2009, 11:25 PM

    let me share little about me, i believe i was unwanted child so i suffer depression my whole life and i was mad at god but never disbelieve in god nor do i curse god.


    we are just human we have no choice but learn to be patient 

    please read my blog, read how islam will win
    the clash of civilization.

    http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #12 - June 07, 2009, 11:27 PM

    let me share little about me, i believe i was unwanted child so i suffer depression my whole life and i was mad at god but never disbelieve in god nor do i curse god.


    we are just human we have no choice but learn to be patient 

    Remember the 20 million I sent you.  It will come eventually, you just have to be patient.

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  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #13 - June 07, 2009, 11:37 PM

    Remember the 20 million I sent you.  It will come eventually, you just have to be patient.



    what choice does atheists have other then be patient?

    please read my blog, read how islam will win
    the clash of civilization.

    http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #14 - June 07, 2009, 11:44 PM

    I will say: "Where's your ass God?! I have some kicking to do!" God: "I only have balls here." Me: "Okay, that will do."

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
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    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #15 - June 08, 2009, 12:12 AM

    I will say: "Where's your ass God?! I have some kicking to do!" God: "I only have balls here." Me: "Okay, that will do."



    i bet if you face bigger man than you, you would not kick his ass

    please read my blog, read how islam will win
    the clash of civilization.

    http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #16 - June 08, 2009, 01:53 AM

    No, History, this is not good enough. If there is a God, he better have a better explanation of all the misery he has put me and mankind through.

    History, Habibi (do u know what that means?) I'd be interested in your thoughts on my latest video here:

    Yes, menschen, I know what Habibi means.  Thank you.

    Hello, Hassan.
    Two thoughts on your video:
    The first, by itself, it is simplistic but effective message of the grandeur of the universe to which man in his self-absorption and tendency to evil is purposefully ignorant and seemingly a lethal contradiction.

    The second, based on my little personal knowledge of you, your past crisis of faith, and your personal loss, is how sad I am for what I perceive as your pain--your nihilistic perspective of Man.
    You could have also chosen to, in honesty, include images of Man's achievements in compassion and kindness.  We're not perfect nor able to be perfect--but we are  able to demonstrate great kindnesses and goodness.

    There is a Jewish teaching, one of my favorites, which describes the state of Man and our purpose in life:

    [Rabbi Tarfon]would also say: It is not incumbent upon you to finish the task (of perfecting the world), but neither are you free to absolve yourself from it (i.e. doing all you can).
    --Talmud, Pirke Avot (Ethics of the Fathers) 2:16

    In return, a video for you:  http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-Yzgp6DJQXk4/pay_it_forward/

    Respectfully and many blessings,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #17 - June 08, 2009, 05:52 AM

    I didn't know about your daughter, I'm very sorry Hassan.

    I hope  hope that God really exists, & She's not some sadistic, misogynistic, discriminating, homophobic monster after all(because conventionally accepted images of God is quite like that, His negative points seem more than His positives) but something really nice who wouldn't burn us in Hell for disbelief, but there'll really be someplace of Happiness Everlasting!  Smiley

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #18 - June 08, 2009, 08:54 AM

    The first, by itself, it is simplistic but effective message of the grandeur of the universe to which man in his self-absorption and tendency to evil is purposefully ignorant and seemingly a lethal contradiction.

    History, would you mind going back to the 'respecting people faith thread' and answer some of the questions that were posed there?

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5545.msg140889#msg140889

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  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #19 - June 08, 2009, 09:44 AM

    Even if he threatens to boil my face. I have long struggled with such fears and and I refuse to submit to such a brutal tyrant even if it means eternal torture.

    Personally I cannot believe that such a sadistic God could possibly exist (do you?) but if he does - FUCK HIM!

    Agree completely. My first response to him would telling him to go fuck himself! Then I'd walk to hell voluntarily, no way am I going to be some assholes sex slave for the rest of eternity in heaven! There is no heaven for me, both places are hell and I'd rather burn.

    Even if god was a 'nice' god who doesn't have a hell I'm not entirely sure I'd respect him either. There is no excuse for the suffering brought about in this life.
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #20 - June 08, 2009, 11:53 AM

    It is not incumbent upon you to finish the task (of perfecting the world), but neither are you free to absolve yourself from it (i.e. doing all you can)


    Nice  Afro



    That was very moving and uplifting - I think I will get a copy of that film.

    What a great idea.  yes

    If only...
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #21 - June 08, 2009, 12:00 PM



    Nice concept, a bit like multi-level / chain effect marketing, but replacing the product with good deeds. 

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  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #22 - June 08, 2009, 05:44 PM

    History, would you mind going back to the 'respecting people faith thread' and answer some of the questions that were posed there?

    Didn't see much sense, Hassan.
    One can always find negative things morally indefensible (in modern retropsective) in anything associated with man, religious or secular (e.g. the Declaration of Independence in regard to Native Americans; the Jim Crowe laws, etc).  And just as some will say a group will select the wheat and ignore the chaf, there are some who see only the chaff and ignore the wheat.
    There are many things in religious writings that are difficult to understand even for adherents and to which detractors cluster like moths to the flame.  Just as with the beligerrant between faiths (recall Ummah.com), no answer I have provided/will provide which suffices for me has/will sufffice for those who abhor Judaism or religion in general. Preconceptions are hard to change, as much for those who seek assurance in their own choice of one faith over another as for those who chose none over any.  But that's o.k.
    I'm not here to proselytize.
    Just to contribute where inspired.
    I'm not here to provide answers to everyone's satisfaction.
    Just the answers that suffice for me. 

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #23 - June 08, 2009, 05:56 PM

    no answer I have provided/will provide which suffices for me has/will sufffice for those who abhor Judaism or religion in general.


    Why should anyone abhor Judaism just because they choose not to believe in it? Or for that matter abhor religion in general just because they choose not to believe in it?

    Thats' a rather strong word-I don't believe in loads of stuff which I don't abhor. Of course, some might abhor a particular religion if they feel that its been responsible for loads of misery-the reason the founders of this site like Maryam Namazie chose to name it Council of ex Muslims was perhaps because their home country Iran punishes apostates with death. It also stones adulteresses amongst many other such practices-in these circumstances I think its understandable if Namazie et al abhor Islam. I personally like Judaism, but I don't think that the text comes from God, just like I don't think that the Declaration of Independence & similar laws came from God-they have too many glaring faults to come from God.

    Of course, Islam is one of the pretty worse faiths currently in that its laws appear barbaric not only in retrospect, but even on the basis of current practice.Other faiths, whether polytheistic, monotheistic, agnostic or atheistic have largely managed to come out of this backwardness. Stonings, unilateral repudiation(talaq),death for apostasy, forced head coverings, polygamy(Yemeni & Shephardic Jews in the M.E. are also polygamous) etc are legal & allowed-in these circumstances, isn't it expected that some will abhor it?



    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #24 - June 08, 2009, 06:39 PM

    Didn't see much sense, Hassan.
    One can always find negative things morally indefensible (in modern retropsective) in anything associated with man, religious or secular (e.g. the Declaration of Independence in regard to Native Americans; the Jim Crowe laws, etc).  And just as some will say a group will select the wheat and ignore the chaf, there are some who see only the chaff and ignore the wheat.
    There are many things in religious writings that are difficult to understand even for adherents and to which detractors cluster like moths to the flame.  Just as with the beligerrant between faiths (recall Ummah.com), no answer I have provided/will provide which suffices for me has/will sufffice for those who abhor Judaism or religion in general. Preconceptions are hard to change, as much for those who seek assurance in their own choice of one faith over another as for those who chose none over any.  But that's o.k.
    I'm not here to proselytize.
    Just to contribute where inspired.
    I'm not here to provide answers to everyone's satisfaction.
    Just the answers that suffice for me.  

    Respectfully,
    History


    I for one am very glad you are here and greatly appreciate your contribution Smiley

    btw it was IsLame that made that post you just responded to - not me.
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #25 - June 08, 2009, 07:20 PM

    Didn't see much sense, Hassan.
    One can always find negative things morally indefensible (in modern retropsective) in anything associated with man, religious or secular (e.g. the Declaration of Independence in regard to Native Americans; the Jim Crowe laws, etc).  

    There is a difference.  We never made the claim that man or his laws were flawless.  However Gods books do make this claim.
    Quote
    There are many things in religious writings that are difficult to understand even for adherents and to which detractors cluster like moths to the flame.  Just as with the beligerrant between faiths (recall Ummah.com), no answer I have provided/will provide which suffices for me has/will sufffice for those who abhor Judaism or religion in general. Preconceptions are hard to change

    Please do not suggest we are blind and inflexible.  We did not sheepishly follow the religion we were born into.

    Quote
    But that's o.k. I'm not here to proselytize. Just to contribute where inspired.

    I am beginning to notice a recurring pattern.  You never seem to be 'inspired' by the difficult questions.  

    Quote
    I'm not here to provide answers to everyone's satisfaction.
    Just the answers that suffice for me.  

     
    No-one asked you to provide answers to our satisfaction.  We just hoped you would answer the questions that we took time to write.  I have always done the same for anyone out of respect. I had hoped you would do the same.

    Here is the question I asked:

    As well as my earlier post about whether you respect the POV of Nazi's, could you also let me know if you think Yahweh was a homophobe?  


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  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #26 - June 08, 2009, 08:27 PM

    There is a difference.  We never made the claim that man or his laws were flawless.  However Gods books do make this claim.

    Hi.
    Please be more specific, Islame.
    The teaching is that G-d is Perfect.
    Our understanding of Him is not, however.
    There is another old Jewish adage I'll share:  "If I knew G-d, I'd be G-d."
    Quote
    Please do not suggest we are blind and inflexible.  We did not sheepishly follow the religion we were born into.

    I intended no suggestion.  All human beings, I submit are at times "blind and inflexible."  Human nature.
    To suggest that those who follow the faith of their parents only do so "sheepishly"would, I submit, be an example of a blind and inflexible suggestion. Wink
    Quote
    I am beginning to notice a recurring pattern.  You never seem to be 'inspired' by the difficult questions.  

    Not necessarily.  I don't find questions difficult.  Answers can be.  And people can be difficult.  Myself included.  Even I have only so much time to spend answering questions to the satisfaction of the questioner.  And some questioners I perceive may not be satisfied.  Thus, I may first choose to answer questions from people I find may be more receptive to the answers I find true for me.  I am only human.
    Quote
    No-one asked you to provide answers to our satisfaction.  We just hoped you would answer the questions that we took time to write.  I have always done the same for anyone out of respect. I had hoped you would do the same.

    If you are not looking to be satisfied with having your question answered, why ask?
    I hate to admit this, but I'm no Hillel.  And I do not find all questions are worthy of answer.
    Quote
    Here is the question I asked:As well as my earlier post about whether you respect the POV of Nazi's, could you also let me know if you think Yahweh was a homophobe?  

    These are examples of what I have been speaking.
    The questions are rhetorical (or you should be able to understand they are).
    I perceive you have an argument you wish to make.
    Thus, I need conclude my answers are immaterial.

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #27 - June 08, 2009, 11:37 PM

    Hi.
    Please be more specific, Islame.
    The teaching is that G-d is Perfect.
    Our understanding of Him is not, however.
    There is another old Jewish adage I'll share:  "If I knew G-d, I'd be G-d." I intended no suggestion.  All human beings, I submit are at times "blind and inflexible."  Human nature.
    To suggest that those who follow the faith of their parents only do so "sheepishly"would, I submit, be an example of a blind and inflexible suggestion. ;)Not necessarily.  I don't find questions difficult.  Answers can be.  And people can be difficult.  Myself included.  Even I have only so much time to spend answering questions to the satisfaction of the questioner.  And some questioners I perceive may not be satisfied.  Thus, I may first choose to answer questions from people I find may be more receptive to the answers I find true for me.  I am only human.If you are not looking to be satisfied with having your question answered, why ask?
    I hate to admit this, but I'm no Hillel.  And I do not find all questions are worthy of answer.These are examples of what I have been speaking.
    The questions are rhetorical (or you should be able to understand they are).
    I perceive you have an argument you wish to make.
    Thus, I need conclude my answers are immaterial.

    Respectfully,
    History

    You're answers are not immaterial, and the reason they were asked.  I have always kept an open mind, so much so that i was prepared to leave the religion I was born into.  And if I hear a more convincing argument I would be prepared to go back to religion.  As per one of my welcoming posts to you, I have always been intrigued as to how somebody from a scientific background can accept an invisible being, without any tangible evidence, as their master. 

    Particularly when imo these beliefs negate huge strides made by mankind towards acceptable and modern cultural values.   However I could be wrong, and am always open to hearing other opinions in case I am wrong, particularly as I have a lot of respect for Hassan, and he holds you in high regard. You will note you made an impact with him, despite his thoughts are about your pov (lol Hassan)

    It saddens me that you have jumped to this conclusion, and choose which questions you are prepared to answer depending on whether others will listen or be convinced by them, or not.

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  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #28 - June 09, 2009, 01:51 AM

    Islame,
    Thank you for your post.

    Do you think I, a Jew, and of a family of Holocaust survivors would respect the anti-Life ideology of Naziism?
    Do you think I would believe G-d is fearful of homosexuals?  Or hates them?

    As I said, the questions are rhetorical--or you should recognize they are.
    I've always felt that the questioner should be as thoughtful in asking a good question as should be the person who provides an answer.

    Again, it is not my purpose to convince anyone. 

    We are all in a state of becoming.
    Why would you ever consider a return to religion?

    As for myself, my learning and education and life experience has increased my appreciation of my Jewish faith and G-d.  I have been increasingly humbled by what I have perceived, understood, and lived.
    I find my belief makes me a better person.
    And that suffices for me.

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #29 - June 09, 2009, 09:15 AM

    As for myself, my learning and education and life experience has increased my appreciation of my Jewish faith and G-d.  I have been increasingly humbled by what I have perceived, understood, and lived.  I find my belief makes me a better person.
    And that suffices for me.

    The same might apply, if not more, if you accepted humanism
    Quote
    As I said, the questions are rhetorical--or you should recognize they are.

    Yes, but by answering them it did help me, and should help you, to understand each others point of view.  Therefore I thank you for answering them.
    Quote
    Do you think I, a Jew, and of a family of Holocaust survivors would respect the anti-Life ideology of Naziism?

    If you would not respect even a watered down version of Nazism which has historically demonstrated violence, then you should be able to empathise (unlike you have shown) with our stance towards Islam.
    Quote
    Do you think I would believe G-d is fearful of homosexuals?

    I dont know, as many theists accept this pov solely because of religion?  In fact it is a stance that would have made sense from a rational perspective as all Abrahmic faiths or God is homophobic (although I didnt use the term fearful, I am more comfortable with using the world 'dislike' as I doubt Yahweh would be fearful of anything he himself created)
    Quote
    Again, it is not my purpose to convince anyone.  

     
    We never said it was.  However it is incumbent on us all to try to understand and empathise with each other.
    Quote
    We are all in a state of becoming.

    Disagree, I think some people are constantly evolving and never ready to be cemented into one particular 'box'
    Quote
    Why would you ever consider a return to religion?

    Because I dont want to burn in hell for eternity if its true.  Your next question might be to ask what would it take for me to return to religion : if every day for a month god performed a trick in front of my eyes.  Todays challenge, to switch my computer off every time I click 'send' on this post.  I currently believe he cant.  If God truly existed, then there would be no real reason for him not to do, particularly if he wanted me to become a better person through accepting him.  We are not blinkered (as the Judaism might lead you to believe), or have a stone in our heart (as per Quran), we are just realists.


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