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 Topic: If There is a God

 (Read 8414 times)
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  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #30 - June 09, 2009, 09:30 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 09, 2009, 09:15 AM
    If you would not respect even a watered down version of Nazism which has historically demonstrated violence, then you should be able to empathise (unlike you have shown) with our stance towards Islam.I dont know, as many theists accept this pov solely because of religion?  In fact it is a stance that would have made sense from a rational perspective as all Abrahmic faiths or God is homophobic (although I didnt use the term fearful, I am more comfortable with using the world 'dislike' as I doubt Yahweh would be fearful of anything he himself created)


    Actually, YHWH more than dislikes he absolutely hates! I don't think I'd want to violently obliterate all that I dislike, while I do dislike Islam, I wouldn't wish for harm on innocent Muslims.

    YHWH gives the death penalty for homosexuality, he destroys Lot's entire people for homosexuality, yet Lot himself, who offers his virgin daughters to be gang raped & later sleeps with them & fathers two sons(grandsons?)with them is called just & righteous. Lot's nameless wife, who turns back is turned into a pillar of salt, so it seems Lot hates homosexuality & turning back to look at one's city more than He hates gang rape & incest. Indeed He might even approve of gang rape & incest, given that He calls Lot just & righteous. Roll Eyes

    But anyway, I'm closer to History's stance on this one, at least regarding YHWH-YHWH may not even have commanded or done these stuff, certainly His followers have seldom done such stuff in his name-so if believing in Him gives someone some meaning & purpose, I see little harm in it.

    The problem with Nazism, or for that matter with Islam isn't just what the texts say, but what the followers do & have done in its name. I can understand why people would lose respect for a faith or political organization which has done dastardly stuff &  especially if it continues to do such stuff & that has legal & social sanction.

    No one has ever been killed by a book, or libraries would be high risk zones.

     
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #31 - June 09, 2009, 09:38 AM
    Quote from: Rashna on June 09, 2009, 09:30 AM
    YHWH gives the death penalty for homosexuality, he destroys Lot's entire people for homosexuality, yet Lot himself, who offers his virgin daughters to be gang raped & later sleeps with them & fathers two sons(grandsons?)with them is called just & righteous. Lot's nameless wife, who turns back is turned into a pillar of salt, so it seems Lot hates homosexuality & turning back to look at one's city more than He hates gang rape & incest. Indeed He might even approve of gang rape & incest, given that He calls Lot just & righteous. Roll Eyes

    Actually his daughters slept with him, they got him drunk in order to do so because they thought they were the only survivors.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #32 - June 09, 2009, 09:50 AM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on June 09, 2009, 09:38 AM
    Actually his daughters slept with him, they got him drunk in order to do so because they thought they were the only survivors.


    Well, they passed through a town on the way, so there must've been people in that town!Btw, you're right, he didn't rape his daughters.

    Anyway, the problem with the story is the moral-its not just a story, it intends to convey a message that homosexuality is an unpardonable sin. YHWH also commands largescale ethnic cleansing in many circumstances, which might be a pretty good template for the later Islamic jihads & mass slaughters of infidels by the newly converted Arabs of the 7th century.

    However, I still don't think believing in YHWH is in anyway problematic-His followers have managed to relativize & rationalize away large chunks of the Book & the current interpretations are good.

    Inspite of all the troubles the Ashkenazi Jews faced in Europe, European civilization too did them a whole lot of good, compared to ancient Egypt, Mesopotemia, China, India, Persia, Greece, Rome etc-ancient Jews hadn't achieved anything in science & technology apart from a vision of One God, but Ashkenazi Jews are some of the pioneers in modern science & technology, unlike Shephardic, Indian & Ethiopian Jews.Due to European influence too, Ashkenazi Jews are monogamous while others aren't.

    All Jews have long abandoned stuff like stonings, so if someone wants to believe in YHWH as the belief currently stands, where's the harm?

    For example, look at this news of the marriage of an Arab Muslim couple based in France, which was annulled because there was no blood stained sheets as tokens of the bride's virginity, the Quran doesn't say a word about blood stained sheets, the Torah has loads of worse stuff than a simple annulment-it actually says that the bride be stoned on her father's doorstep, yet if Jews have managed to relativize that away, while Muslims practice such stuff inspite of it not being there in the book, whats' the harm in believing in YHWH?

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #33 - June 09, 2009, 12:06 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 09, 2009, 09:15 AM
    (although I didnt use the term fearful, I am more comfortable with using the world 'dislike' as I doubt Yahweh would be fearful of anything he himself created)


    Actually Yahweh is fearful of man. He thought that they were building a tower that would reach him up to heaven and so he gave them different languages so they couldn't work together to complete the skyscraper into the heavens.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #34 - June 09, 2009, 12:54 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on June 09, 2009, 12:06 PM
    Actually Yahweh is fearful of man. He thought that they were building a tower that would reach him up to heaven and so he gave them different languages so they couldn't work together to complete the skyscraper into the heavens.

     Cheesy Now that would be cheating
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  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #35 - June 09, 2009, 12:55 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 09, 2009, 09:15 AM
    The same might apply, if not more, if you accepted humanism

    Hi, Islame.
    I have decided, upon study, "No."  Humanism is insufficient for me.
    Yet Judaism, I find, is the most humanistic of the Avrahamic-derived faiths.
    Quote
    Yes, but by answering them it did help me, and should help you, to understand each others point of view.  Therefore I thank you for answering them.

    I actually didn't, that being the point.  But that's ok.  You are welcome.
     Smiley
    Quote
    If you would not respect even a watered down version of Nazism which has historically demonstrated violence, then you should be able to empathise (unlike you have shown) with our stance towards Islam.

    I do understand objections to Islam (or any faith).  I do not equate Islam with Nazi fascism, however--though I have, in debate at another Forum, demonstrated some similarities in some parts of their ideology--for the sake of argument.
    Quote
    I dont know, as many theists accept this pov solely because of religion?  In fact it is a stance that would have made sense from a rational perspective as all Abrahmic faiths or God is homophobic (although I didnt use the term fearful, I am more comfortable with using the world 'dislike' as I doubt Yahweh would be fearful of anything he himself created)

    Phobia, from the Greek, is "an extreme irrational fear."  Choice of words is important.
    Perhaps you meant to ask if G-d opposes homosexuality.
    The answer I would give is complex, in what would likely be seen as an apologetic explanation of a single abjuration within Scripture.  But my answer would still be "No." (There.  I answered you.  Smiley ).  No homosexual has ever been stoned or killed by Jews.  Today they are even rabbis.
    Quote
    We never said it was.  However it is incumbent on us all to try to understand and empathise with each other.

    Again, our choice of words, particularly in phrasing questions, should be one that inspires respectful discourse.
    Especially if the goal is empathy.
    Quote
    Disagree, I think some people are constantly evolving and never ready to be cemented into one particular 'box'

    You actually agree, then.
    Quote
    Because I dont want to burn in hell for eternity if its true.  Your next question might be to ask what would it take for me to return to religion : if every day for a month god performed a trick in front of my eyes.  Todays challenge, to switch my computer off every time I click 'send' on this post.  I currently believe he cant.  If God truly existed, then there would be no real reason for him not to do, particularly if he wanted me to become a better person through accepting him.  We are not blinkered (as the Judaism might lead you to believe), or have a stone in our heart (as per Quran), we are just realists.

    There is no "Hell", no eternal damnation/suffering in Judaism.  Why?  Because such a concept is completely contrary to the knowledge of a Just and Merciful G-d, Blessed be His Name.
    Your daily test I find amusing--though childish.
    We don't make demands of G-d, He makes demands of us:  to strive to be ethical and righteous every day.
    That is our daily challenge.
    I find in doing my best to meet His challenge, I feel Him near.

    And it is a wonderful feeling.

    Respectfully,
    History
    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #36 - June 09, 2009, 12:58 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on June 09, 2009, 09:38 AM
    Actually his daughters slept with him, they got him drunk in order to do so because they thought they were the only survivors.

    Another moral tale.
    Trust in G-d as much, if not more, than your own eyes.
    The same lesson is repeated in the moral parable of Jephthah and his daughter.

    Respectfully,
    History
    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #37 - June 09, 2009, 01:29 PM
    History,

    So do you agree with us that Islam is false and the Qur'an is not the word of God?

    Or do you think it is better for us to have remained Muslims (even though it is false)?

    Or perhaps convert to Judaism?

    Or does it not matter if we believe in a religion or not?

    Or does it not matter if we believe in God or not?

    Is religion and recognition of God necessary to make us good?

    Will God make those of us who reject religion and God suffer as a consequence?

    If we find that Islam (and all religions) make no sense to us and we see no evidence for God what can we do to correct ourselves?

    If we fail to correct ourselves is that because we are bad? Faulty? Stupid?

    Is it totally our fault if we don't believe in God?

    Does God not bear any responsibility for how his creation behaves?

    Is there absolutely no 'product liability' on the part of God?

  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #38 - June 09, 2009, 01:34 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 09, 2009, 01:29 PM
    Will God make those of us who reject religion and God suffer as a consequence?

    I don't think Judaism has the concept of hell.
    Quote from: History on June 09, 2009, 12:58 PM
    Another moral tale.
    Trust in G-d as much, if not more, than your own eyes.
    The same lesson is repeated in the moral parable of Jephthah and his daughter.

    Respectfully,
    History

    What moral tale? Incest is hardly a good thing does not do much for the survival of a race (limited gene pool, increased chance of inheriting life threatening conditions, increased chances of being wiped by a virus, etc). I would never sleep with my dad. What his daughters did is rape, that isn't moral in ANY circumstances!
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #39 - June 09, 2009, 01:41 PM
    Now I don't believe in god, nor do I agee with the need for a moral tale that may or may not have been a tale for the wary, but I can see historys meaning.

    Ie if the daughters had trusted in god to provide husbands, trusted in god that he would not leave them without, then they would not have commited a sin, instead in their fear and lack of trust, they commited a sin and dosed their father with drink to have sex with him.

    I think it's a screwed up tale, I certainly wouldn't make up pornographic incest tales to warn my kids about trusting or having faith, it's very extreme and there is no disclaimer added, aside from those of a more modern mind, to say that it's just a tale.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #40 - June 09, 2009, 01:56 PM
    Quote from: History on June 09, 2009, 12:58 PM
    The same lesson is repeated in the moral parable of Jephthah and his daughter.


    Someone killing their daughter as a promise to god to help them kill off a neighbouring tribe of unbelievers is a good moral tale?

    Seems strange to me.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #41 - June 09, 2009, 03:34 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 09, 2009, 01:29 PM
    History,
    So do you agree with us that Islam is false and the Qur'an is not the word of God?

    Technically, yes.
    However, there is much in Islam that is true, per Jewish knowledge of G-d and His Teachings for ethical human behavior.
    Quote
    Or do you think it is better for us to have remained Muslims (even though it is false)?
    Or perhaps convert to Judaism?
    Or does it not matter if we believe in a religion or not?

    As I've shared with you before, Hassan, Judaism teaches:

    "The righteous among ALL the nations of the earth have a share in the world-to-come."
    --    Tosefta Sanhedrin 13:2

    Thus, if you are inspired to righteousness as a Muslim, or a Jew, or a (etc) or by no religion/philosophy at all, that is fine.  Your true belief is defined by your actions--not your "religion" or lack thereof.
    Quote
    Or does it not matter if we believe in God or not?  Is religion and recognition of God necessary to make us good?

    I believe I also shared this Teaching with you.  G-d says:

    "It is better they abandon Me, yet keep My Laws (for ethical human behavior)"
    --Yerushalami Talmud, Haggigah 1:7

    G-d, in His Humility, is not interested in claims of belief without deed, nor adoration without inspiration to live well.  He is not interested in blind faith for His benefit.  His concern is for what is beneficial for us: to become good and righteous beings, thoughtful of others, etc.

    I do need note that immediately following this statement, the rabbis are a twitter  Wink and quickly comment and afirm that the best way for human beings to keep to G-d's ethical teachings is through recognition of Him.
    Quote
    Will God make those of us who reject religion and God suffer as a consequence?

    Not per His Word in Judaism.
    Quote
    If we find that Islam (and all religions) make no sense to us and we see no evidence for God what can we do to correct ourselves?

    See above.  Your beliefs are immaterial.  Your words and actions are what matter.
    Rabbi Hillel (c. 100 BCE), my favorite Sage, was once approached by the proselyte with the irreverent request to teach him all of the Torah in the time he could balance on one foot.  Rabbi Hillel replied, "What is hateful to you do not do to another.  That is the whole of Torah.  The rest is commentary.  Go and learn it." --Talmud, Shabbat 31a.
    Quote
    If we fail to correct ourselves is that because we are bad? Faulty? Stupid?

    It is because we are human.
    In Judaism, the word for sin is "chait" which translates "missing the mark."  No one is ever a perfect marksman all the time.  All that is required of us is to do the best we can in life, to strive to become a better (more righteous) person today than yesterday, and strive to be better tomorrow than today.  When we make a mistake, we need strive to correct it, make good, and struggle on.
    Quote
    Is it totally our fault if we don't believe in God?

    Yes.  It is a personal choice.
    Quote
    Does God not bear any responsibility for how his creation behaves?  Is there absolutely no 'product liability' on the part of God?

    I believe: No.  The Gift, once given, is the responsibility of the recipient.
    Judaism is about personal responsibility:

    בֵּן לֹא-יִשָּׂא בַּעֲו‍ֹן הָאָב, וְאָב לֹא יִשָּׂא בַּעֲו‍ֹן הַבֵּן--צִדְקַת הַצַּדִּיק עָלָיו תִּהְיֶה, וְרִשְׁעַת רשע (הָרָשָׁע) עָלָיו תִּהְיֶה.
    ..the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father with him, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son with him; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
    --Ezekiel 18:20

    Respectfully,
    History
    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #42 - June 09, 2009, 03:44 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on June 09, 2009, 01:34 PM
    I don't think Judaism has the concept of hell.

    Not the Islamic and Christian "concept," no.
    Quote
    What moral tale? Incest is hardly a good thing does not do much for the survival of a race (limited gene pool, increased chance of inheriting life threatening conditions, increased chances of being wiped by a virus, etc). I would never sleep with my dad. What his daughters did is rape, that isn't moral in ANY circumstances!

    Jews have never been Biblical literalists. 
    Scripture is not "history" in the modern connoation of the word--i.e. the objective (supposedly) chronicling of actual events.  Scripture is a "moral history."  The emphasis is not on the literal event but on the moral teaching.  For example, the ancient Jews knew well, per G-d's Word, that incest, and human sacrifice in the case of Jephthah and his daughter, were absolutely immoral and forbidden.  In both cases, the "sin" was vanity and not trusting in G-d.  That is the emphasis.

    Respectfully,
    History
    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #43 - June 09, 2009, 05:47 PM
    Quote from: History on June 09, 2009, 03:34 PM
    if you are inspired to righteousness as a Muslim, or a Jew, or a (etc) or by no religion/philosophy at all, that is fine.  Your true belief is defined by your actions--not your "religion" or lack thereof.


    Thanks History - in this we share the same beliefs  Afro

    Quote from: Hassan
    Does God not bear any responsibility for how his creation behaves?  Is there absolutely no 'product liability' on the part of God?


    Quote from: History on June 09, 2009, 03:34 PM
    I believe: No.  The Gift, once given, is the responsibility of the recipient.


    In this we differ.

    I cannot see how God (if there is one) cannot take any responsibility for how his creation turn out? Or their capacity to respond?
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #44 - June 09, 2009, 05:59 PM
    @ History, isn't it difficult to know what exactly Jews believed, practiced & did in the Pre Greaco Roman conquest era? Ancient Israel wasn't a very advanced civilization, so there are few records which are objective history apart from whatever material is provided in scripture, & scripture is something like a historical fantasy of the LOTR variety, so many stories are so fantastic that its difficult to separate truth from fiction. Even the Exodus might largely be mythical or have just minimal basis in history. Many of the ancient Israeli Kings haven't even been proved to be historical characters. For example, we do know loads about whatever happened in ancient Mesopotemia, Egypt, Persia etc-we know about the Pharaohs, their court cases, loads of letters written on papyrus have been discovered from Egypt, its easy to reconstruct what they thought, believed & did even apart from their extensive religious mythology, but how exactly do we know what ancient Jews in the pre conquest era did? For eg, there is this letter, 4000 years old from ancient Egypt where a girl writes to her mom, "I am all right. Don't worry about me."

    How to separate between fact & fiction in their theology & say confidently that they did this or didn't do that in the pre conquest era?

    In the time of Jesus, it seems Jews stoned adulteresses, as Muslims do now, but we don't come across any homosexuals, even the Jesus story might be fabricated, as happens with theology.We have extremely scanty non theological records of the pre conquest era & the theology has too much fantasy to be believable as history.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #45 - June 09, 2009, 07:38 PM
    Nice post Rashna, and it is a interesting question.  How do we know such works are authentic.  Our past has shown , and as History agrees, that untrue religions have also made it and become accepted as the truth over reason.  

    History, I am still trying to get to the bottom of your beliefs so I can understand where you are coming from.  

    As we seem to agree on many things, I am trying to work out why we believe in 2 vastly different ideologies.

    By analysing some of you posts, I believe it is for 2 reasons

    i)  The Torah enables you to lead a good life
    ii)  You 'feel' Gods presence

    I find Humanism provides better sayings and phrases that the Torah (you wont find any any moral tales using rape, murder, homophobia, racism and incest as examples) however I wont expect you to agree.  However you do agree that there are many sects and cults that can work for a variety of inviduals, and it should not necessarily mean it is God inspired, as Rashna pointed out. Thus I can rule option (i) out, which just leads us to (ii), you can 'feel' Gods presence.

    You either do or you dont, and no matter how much discussion takes place, the true reason is down to something that mere rationalizing will never get to the bottom off.
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  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #46 - June 09, 2009, 07:49 PM
    Quote from: History on June 09, 2009, 12:55 PM
    Yet Judaism, I find, is the most humanistic of the Avrahamic-derived faiths


    I think so too History, I'm a non Muslim\Christian\Jew & I'm very honest-so this is my sincere opinion.  Afro
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #47 - June 09, 2009, 08:03 PM
    Quote
    Yet Judaism, I find, is the most humanistic of the Avrahamic-derived faiths

    [/quote]
    Quote from: Rashna on June 09, 2009, 07:49 PM
    I think so too History, I'm a non Muslim\Christian\Jew & I'm very honest-so this is my sincere opinion.  Afro

    So what?   Huh?
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  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #48 - June 09, 2009, 08:15 PM
    Rashna and Islame,
    Thank you for your posts.
    The Torah, though a much longer writing than the NT or the Quran is still just the beginning of Jewish writings regarding G-d and His Teachings.  The Mishna, Gemera, and the remainder of the Talmud also date back thousands of years, and there are numerous other texts spanning the centuries to the present day which strive to understand Man, G-d, and His Teachings.

    As far as capital punishment in Judaism, it was permissible by the Letter of the Law but not per the Spirit of the Law.  The concept of "death" for a proven violation was an indication of how severe the offense was deemed snf not a perscription for literal punishment.  There is discussion in the Talmud of the question of how frequently capital punishment was imposed by the Sanhedrin, although the Torah does explicitly allow for it. A Sanhedrin that imposed the death penalty once in seven years was called a "bloody" Sanhedrin.  Another indicated the eponym was earned if the death penalty was imposed even once in seventy years!  

    Quote
    The harshness of the death penalty indicated the seriousness of the crime. Jewish philosophers argue that the whole point of corporal punishment was to serve as a reminder to the community of the severe nature of certain acts. This is why, in Jewish law, the death penalty is more of a principle than a practice. The numerous references to a death penalty in the Torah underscore the severity of the sin rather than the expectation of death. This is bolstered by the standards of proof required for application of the death penalty, which has always been extremely stringent (Babylonian Talmud Makkoth 7b). Because the standards of proof were so high, it was well-nigh impossible to inflict the death penalty. The Mishnah (tractate Makkoth 1:11) states that a court that administers capital punishment more than once every seventy years is called a "murderous court".

    According to the Talmud forty years before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE (i.e. in 30 CE) the Sanhedrin effectively abolished capital punishment
    --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_(Judaism)


    I find that humanism, despite much that is shared with Jewish ethics, has an inherent flaw.  By placing Man at the center of the Universe as the solution, there is the loss of Humility which I contend is essential to acheiving the ethical personal and species goal that both the humanist and Jews strive for.  With G-d as the ultimate Authority, as the Creator, and the Giver of Eternal Law for appropriate human behavior, there is no moral relativity which is the repetitive flaw, demonstrated by history, when Man deems himself the center of Creation.
    I respect you may disagree.

    Respectfully,
    History
    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #49 - June 09, 2009, 08:35 PM
    Quote from: History on June 09, 2009, 08:15 PM
    I find that humanism, despite much that is shared with Jewish ethics, has an inherent flaw.  By placing Man at the center of the Universe as the solution, there is the loss of Humility which I contend is essential to acheiving the ethical personal and species goal that both the humanist and Jews strive for.  With G-d as the ultimate Authority, as the Creator, and the Giver of Eternal Law for appropriate human behavior, there is no moral relativity which is the repetitive flaw, demonstrated by history, when Man deems himself the center of Creation.

    I actually agree.  If you stick God at the centre of Humanism, imo you would have the perfect religion.  Would I follow it?  Still no.

    Why?  Because however old it was, there would need to be something to prove it was God inspired other that its brilliance, and there would be not in Yahweh's interests to make it ambiguous (although I still maintain Humanism has better life lessons than the Torah with far fewer flaws that 'Gods' works)

    Just because something appears to be a good code of life, a great piece of writing (like Shakepeare's work), or a great piece of art, that doesnt make it divine.

    I note it being a general theme with your answers.  Just because Judaism makes you believe you are leading a better life, why again (without using circular logic) does that make it true? 
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  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #50 - June 10, 2009, 04:57 AM
    History, thats' not what I asked at all- what I asked was how do we know what Jews did in the pre conquest period, Judaism as a faith is between 3000-4000 years old, in that time a man called Abraham had apparently rebelled against his father & smashed his idols-he had left his home & cheated both a Pharaoh & the King of Abimelech claiming that his wife is his sister, both men fell for this lie, later it speaks about his descendents, about Jews being enslaved in Egypt, fleeing from there, founding their own kingdom after a God sanctioned ethnic cleansing, the kingdom being divided, Jews being a colonized people etc.

    These events spanned another 1000 + years, but unfortunately they're not recorded history-the only way to know what happened is to read the Torah & fact & fiction blends so much in it that we do not know.

    What kind of punishments were given in daily life in independent Israel, what the people thought & did, what the law givers enforced etc-its not possible to read many writings on all these, like it is possible to know about ancient Egypt, Mesopotemia etc. Whether many of the Jewish Kings even existed is debatable. In contrast, there are loads of court cases, marriage contracts, personal letters from Egypt & Mesopotemia.

    Jews come into the full glare of history after the conquest & their increasing contact with other people-the Talmud & such writings are 2000 years old-we know that the Jews had managed to relativize away most of the unsavoury stuff by then, but we really do not know what the Jews practiced in ancient Israel, like we know about the most successful ancient civilizations of Egypt & Mesopotemia for example.

    From the Jesus story, it seems that Jews 2000 years ago still stoned adulteresses & crucified blasphemers(btw, compare Jesus' crucifixtion with the way the Buddha had full freedom to preach his new faith in a polytheistic country, he was even remade into a god by the polytheists later) but since Jesus story is also religious with supernatural events, we can't be sure of its historicity.

    Anyway, if these stonings & crucifixtion incidents are true-then Jews 2000 years ago were still like what the worst Muslims are now, but how to know for sure what Jews did 2800 years ago in their independent kingdom?

    Quote from: History
    With G-d as the ultimate Authority, as the Creator, and the Giver of Eternal Law for appropriate human behavior, there is no moral relativity which is the repetitive flaw, demonstrated by history, when Man deems himself the center of Creation


    But isn't the moral relativity just as present with G-d at the centre as without G-d? With or without G-d at the centre, human laws, including religious laws, change according to the circumstance & the society people find themselves in-like Judaism & polygamy.

    Ashkenazi Jews banned it 1000 years ago, as they lived in a monogamous society, Shephardic & Yemeni Jews continued it upto the present day as they lived in polygamous societies, it was the society which became the determining factor for altering laws-just like Westernized Turkish Muslims have outlawed polygamy today, Saudi Muslims continue it, not because of the moral relativity under Allah, but because of the moral relativity of society.

    Or take slavery in the West & U.S.A., it was upheld using religion & opposed using religion as well-both the abolitionists & the slaveholders used G-d to justify their worldview & actions.

    Moral relativity, whether in case of Jewish non Ashkenazi polygamy or Christian race based slavery is a repetitive flaw, whether with or without G-d, G-d's laws can & have been used to argue both positions & just like non God made humanistic laws, G-d made laws have also changed according to changing times or according to the particular society in which a group of people have been located. Thus for Ashkenazis in European, the prevalent social monogamy prompted a change in G-d's laws to make polygamy unacceptable, for Shephardic & Yemeni Jews, the polygamous society around them & the fact that G-d in the Torah didn't outlaw polygamy while He outlawed shellfish was sufficient evidence that they can be polygamous.

    The difference is that in non G-d made laws, people haven't dragged a religious book with anachronistic laws with them & tried to relativize away large chunks of it with the claim that G-d actually didn't mean it.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #51 - June 13, 2009, 09:59 PM
    There may be a god or gods. Humans have worshipped thousands of gods. If you die and are confronted with a god, what are the chances that you would have picked the right one to worship anyway? You might get one who blamed you for failing to sacrifice your children to him/her.

    BTW I don't believe the story of Lot's daughters. If they got him so drunk, he would probably have suffered from brewer's droop and been unable to perform.

    Justifying god belief because it places god rather than people in the centre of things is not logically justifiable. Whatever the supposed benefits of believing in gods, they don't make the belief true. The crucial question is: what reason do you have for believing that a god exists? Something that amounts to "I like the idea" doesn't hack it.
    Free speech is the source of most other freedoms
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #52 - June 13, 2009, 10:47 PM
    Quote from: DMB on June 13, 2009, 09:59 PM
    The crucial question is: what reason do you have for believing that a god exists? Something that amounts to "I like the idea" doesn't hack it.


    None whatsoevaaa!!!!!
    ...
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #53 - June 15, 2009, 11:21 PM
    Quote from: DMB on June 13, 2009, 09:59 PM
    There may be a god or gods. Humans have worshipped thousands of gods. If you die and are confronted with a god, what are the chances that you would have picked the right one to worship anyway? You might get one who blamed you for failing to sacrifice your children to him/her.

    BTW I don't believe the story of Lot's daughters. If they got him so drunk, he would probably have suffered from brewer's droop and been unable to perform.


    Well, the translated verse says the daughters got him drunk.  But people got ripped on other things back then besides beer and wine.  There would have been Amanita, Psilocybe, Cannabis, Opium, and who knows what else?  Some of that stuff doesn't give you the droop.

  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #54 - June 16, 2009, 09:03 AM
    Quote from: Rashna on June 10, 2009, 04:57 AM
    History, thats' not what I asked at all- what I asked was how do we know what Jews did in the pre conquest period, Judaism as a faith is between 3000-4000 years old, in that time a man called Abraham had apparently rebelled against his father & smashed his idols-he had left his home & cheated both a Pharaoh & the King of Abimelech claiming that his wife is his sister, both men fell for this lie, later it speaks about his descendents, about Jews being enslaved in Egypt, fleeing from there, founding their own kingdom after a God sanctioned ethnic cleansing, the kingdom being divided, Jews being a colonized people etc.

    None of it ever happened. It's all mythology, not history. The archaeological evidence is pretty clear on this point.


    Quote
    From the Jesus story, it seems that Jews 2000 years ago still stoned adulteresses & crucified blasphemers(btw, compare Jesus' crucifixtion with the way the Buddha had full freedom to preach his new faith in a polytheistic country, he was even remade into a god by the polytheists later) but since Jesus story is also religious with supernatural events, we can't be sure of its historicity.

    Anyway, if these stonings & crucifixtion incidents are true-then Jews 2000 years ago were still like what the worst Muslims are now, but how to know for sure what Jews did 2800 years ago in their independent kingdom?

    Crucifixion had nothing to do with Judaism. The whole story about the Jews demanding JC be crucified is 99.999% sure to be bullshit. The Jewish punishment for blasphemy (if and when it was imposed) was stoning.

    Contrary to the representation in the New Testament, Pontius Pilate was a brutal governor in the employ of a brutal emperor who was well pissed off with the rebellions in Judaea. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment and was imposed for, among other things, treason against the Roman emperor. It was also usual for the cross to have a notice affixed to it stating what the crime was. As an example, declaring yourself to be the "King of the Jews" could be seen as treason, and could well get you nailed to a cross with a nice little note that said something like "King of the Jews". Sound familiar?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #55 - October 04, 2009, 09:17 PM
    Quote from: History on June 09, 2009, 12:58 PM
    I do not equate Islam with Nazi fascism, however--though I have, in debate at another Forum, demonstrated some similarities in some parts of their ideology--for the sake of argument

    If your God is real, capable & compassionate then how do you explain God's ability to stand by and watch the barbaric slaughter of 3 million Jews?
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  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #56 - October 04, 2009, 09:20 PM
    Its more like 6 million is it not?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #57 - October 04, 2009, 09:30 PM
    Who counted them? The Nazi's? No seriously, I was always puzzled with the numbers and from where they arrived!
    ...
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #58 - October 04, 2009, 09:35 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on October 04, 2009, 09:30 PM
    Who counted them? The Nazi's? No seriously, I was always puzzled with the numbers and from where they arrived!


    Of course the Nazis counted them.  In case you hadn't noticed German people are totally anal about details, (sorry NineBerry).
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: If There is a God
     Reply #59 - October 04, 2009, 09:35 PM
    Smart estimates based on mass graves found, name lists from all parts of the reich, people missing etc. For a while the number was thought to be 3-4 million but as we got further away, discovered more and even after the collapse of the Soviet Union when more documents were available 6 million Jews and 9 million Jews and non-Jews (Catholics, dissidents, Gypsies, Slavs, Serbs) were found dead in concentration camps. Obviously this figure is shy of the 50 million war casualties-but being a war victim and dying in a gas chamber is very different.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
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