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 Poll

  • Question: Are we destined to get stupider as a race of people?  (Voting closed: June 14, 2009, 04:25 PM)
  • Over time, I guess yes - 3 (17.6%)
  • No, we will get cleverer - 10 (58.8%)
  • We will stay the same - 3 (17.6%)
  • I dont understand the question, my mum had 20 children - 1 (5.9%)
  • Total Voters: 17

 Topic: The sad inevitable fate of the human race

 (Read 4570 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     OP - June 12, 2009, 04:25 PM
    Stupid folk tend to have more kids than clever folk.

    There is no evolutionary advantage to be clever anymore, in fact it means your gene pool is less likely to flourish as stupid people dominate the globe.

    In fact it may have happened already.  Fact or fiction?   Penises
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  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #1 - June 12, 2009, 04:41 PM
    I voted no, we will get cleverer.  Genetics is only one part of intelligence, there are other determinants - level of education, environment and diet, for example.  The stupid are not outbreeding the clever at any greater rate now than they ever used to as far as I can see, and the other factors are improving in most of the world, so the likelihood is that we will get a bit smarter on average over time.

    Plus, as life expectancy goes up, people get the chance to learn more in their lifetime and pass that knowledge on, so that's another reason we will become brainier.   dance
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #2 - June 12, 2009, 04:53 PM
    We'll probably stay about the same level as we are now. Kids from stupid folk can become clever too.
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  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #3 - June 12, 2009, 05:30 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on June 12, 2009, 04:53 PM
    Kids from stupid folk can become clever too.


    Yes, infact many of them are already, they just don't have the same chances at education than the rich do.

    I voted we will get cleverer.......could be the optimist in me, but I never did believe Korn.  Tongue
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #4 - June 12, 2009, 05:35 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on June 12, 2009, 04:53 PM
    Kids from stupid folk can become clever too.

    Agreed, its a huge generalisation.  However statistically you are still more likely to get clever kids from clever folk, and stupid kids from stupid folk.  If stupid folk have more kids, then clever kids are going to be more and more outnumbered.

    (Having greater knowledge is a different issue, stupid people can still have lots of knowledge, but agree it can nullify the effects of stupidity)
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  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #5 - June 12, 2009, 05:38 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 12, 2009, 05:35 PM
    Agreed, its a huge generalisation.  However statistically you are still more likely to get clever kids from clever folk, and stupid kids from stupid folk.  If stupid folk have more kids, then clever kids are going to be more and more outnumbered.

    (Having greater knowledge is a different issue, stupid people can still have lots of knowledge, but agree it can nullify the effects of stupidity)



    Only because of socio-economic factors though, improving the education and opportunities available for the poorer classes would change the way that appears now.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #6 - June 12, 2009, 05:49 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on June 12, 2009, 05:38 PM

    Only because of socio-economic factors though, improving the education and opportunities available for the poorer classes would change the way that appears now.





    I don't know about the rest of the world, but the government is paying basically 99% of a person's education here... xD
    Even for Colleges (you call those High Schools in the UK, don't you? xD) and Universities...

    But I think that computers, robots and other technology products will make us more and more stupid.
    My dad and grandpa for example are great with numbers.
    Me and my little brother are terrible, because we have a calculator and Excel for that... xD
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  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #7 - June 12, 2009, 05:50 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 12, 2009, 05:35 PM
    However statistically you are still more likely to get clever kids from clever folk, and stupid kids from stupid folk.  If stupid folk have more kids, then clever kids are going to be more and more outnumbered.

    That is correct.  It is a big "if" however.

    Up until the 20th century in Europe, wealthier people had more surviving children than poorer people - due to better diet and access to medicine etc.
    Poorer people having more children is a 20th (and 21st) century European phenomenon - it remains to be seen what the consequences of that are.
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #8 - June 12, 2009, 05:56 PM
    Quote from: Farid92 on June 12, 2009, 05:49 PM
    robots and other technology products will make us more and more stupid.
    My dad and grandpa for example are great with numbers.
    Me and my little brother are terrible, because we have a calculator and Excel for that... xD

    I don't think this is an example of "more stupid" - just differently abled (and I don't mean that as a PC term).
    There are certain people who lament the fact that people can now read for example - as it has reduced people's ability to be able to read symbols in paintings and drawings.  In Medieval Europe, people could "read" meaning in various hand gestures, colours, flowers, animals etc. used in stained glass in churches and paintings (not really something that was used in Islamic culture, due to being considered generally haram).  As people learned how to read text, they no longer had to rely on their ability to read paintings etc. and this ability waned.
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #9 - June 12, 2009, 06:04 PM
    Quote from: Farid92 on June 12, 2009, 05:49 PM

    I don't know about the rest of the world, but the government is paying basically 99% of a person's education here... xD
    Even for Colleges (you call those High Schools in the UK, don't you? xD) and Universities...

    But I think that computers, robots and other technology products will make us more and more stupid.
    My dad and grandpa for example are great with numbers.
    Me and my little brother are terrible, because we have a calculator and Excel for that... xD


    Yes this is true, but the quality of education differs drastically from that of the private sector.

    This is what I mean by unequal opportunities.

    Improve the education system and only THEN start making unfair claims that somehow the poorer classes are stupider.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #10 - June 12, 2009, 06:30 PM
    Quote from: Farid92 on June 12, 2009, 05:49 PM

    I don't know about the rest of the world, but the government is paying basically 99% of a person's education here... xD
    Even for Colleges (you call those High Schools in the UK, don't you? xD) and Universities...

    But I think that computers, robots and other technology products will make us more and more stupid.
    My dad and grandpa for example are great with numbers.
    Me and my little brother are terrible, because we have a calculator and Excel for that... xD


    Computers and robots and technology are not just making us stupid, but mean that we have less practical skills as well. For example, how many people do you know who can light a fire? I would say very few, whereas 200 years ago, most people would have been able to do it. Obviously, you can say we don't need practical skills like that anymore, but you could end up in a situation where you do need skills like that.
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  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #11 - June 12, 2009, 06:42 PM
    An interesting video that is related to the question of this thread - especially the last part of the video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOOJBU45xn4
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #12 - June 12, 2009, 08:18 PM
    The RIP dedication at the end of that vid, is that to the woman murdered by a You Tube creationist who then killed himself? 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #13 - June 12, 2009, 08:42 PM
    As to the OP, what BerberElla and Cheetah said

    Quote from: Cheetah on June 12, 2009, 08:18 PM
    The RIP dedication at the end of that vid, is that to the woman murdered by a You Tube creationist who then killed himself?


    Wait, what?
    fuck you
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #14 - June 12, 2009, 09:06 PM
    There was a creationist You Tuber who killed a girl in his college class, whom he had previously been stalking, and then committed suicide...

    Quote
    For those familiar with the atheist/Christian & evolution/creation debates on YouTube, you will have probably come across the user Tony48219, real name Anthony Powell. He ranted about Evolution and atheism, using repeatedly debunked arguments, and was a fanboy of VenomFangX. Anthony Powell shot and killed fellow student and YouTuber Asia McGowan last Friday, before turning the shotgun on himself.

    In a recent video, Tony48219 (YouTube account now suspended) had told viewers he had no reason to live, and that he would kill himself with a shotgun. His parents said he had had problems with depression, but didn?t like taking his medicine.



    http://atheistblogger.com/tag/murder/
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #15 - June 12, 2009, 10:35 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on June 12, 2009, 05:38 PM

    Only because of socio-economic factors though, improving the education and opportunities available for the poorer classes would change the way that appears now.



    Not so. Children from families who have lower IQ's do improve when put in an environment where there are more learning opportunities however, with age, it has been found that such children's IQ start to mirror that of their families rather than their peers. Genetics have been shown to limit one's potential.
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #16 - June 12, 2009, 10:37 PM
    Have you any evidence for that Ferrero?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #17 - June 12, 2009, 10:45 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 12, 2009, 10:37 PM
    Have you any evidence for that Ferrero?

    I don't know the researcher's name off the top of my head; I'll dig up my notes tomorrow. Smiley
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #18 - June 12, 2009, 11:09 PM
    You may want to follow up the following pieces of research:

    Texas Adoption Study (Loehlin et al 1997)
    Loehlin, Lindzey, and Spuhler (1975)- Race differences in intelligence
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #19 - June 12, 2009, 11:15 PM
    Quote from: Ferrero on June 12, 2009, 11:09 PM
    Loehlin, Lindzey, and Spuhler (1975)- Race differences in intelligence


    Tell me more about this book please ..
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  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #20 - June 12, 2009, 11:36 PM
    Quote from: Ferrero on June 12, 2009, 11:09 PM
    You may want to follow up the following pieces of research:

    Texas Adoption Study (Loehlin et al 1997)
    Loehlin, Lindzey, and Spuhler (1975)- Race differences in intelligence



    Ferrero, could you please give us a link to whichever specific piece of research you feel backs up the claim in your previous post? 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #21 - June 12, 2009, 11:48 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 12, 2009, 11:36 PM
    Ferrero, could you please give us a link to whichever specific piece of research you feel backs up the claim in your previous post? 

    Dont you believe IQ, which is mostly genetic, can be inherited?
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  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #22 - June 12, 2009, 11:58 PM
    It's a bit long but readable:

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=BMXVZzvLXz8C&oi=fnd&pg=PA105&dq=texas+adoption+study&ots=KZlTpFWXtA&sig=BA2EzLsM035oXE5xXuC6r3PALoA
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #23 - June 13, 2009, 12:00 AM
    Its not that simple, IsLame.  Intelligence is not like eye colour, its not a simple matter of one gene which codes for low or high intelligence.  There's a genetic mixture which can indicate, but not determine, your potential for a low or high IQ. 

    Other factors contribute to whether you fulfill your genetic potential or fall far short of it.  Ferroro's assertion that genes rule all, even when other factors are controlled for, is an extraordinary claim.  Therefore, I want to see evidence before I'm prepared to accept it. 

    When I googled the authors of the book and the piece of research that she posted, I was greeted with an avalanche of entries, most of which were entirely irrelevant to her claim.  No reasonable person would expect me to wade through all that looking for what she claims, so I ask again - post a link to the relevant piece of research that backs up your claim, Ferrero, please.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #24 - June 13, 2009, 12:18 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 13, 2009, 12:00 AM
    Its not that simple, IsLame.  Intelligence is not like eye colour, its not a simple matter of one gene which codes for low or high intelligence.  There's a genetic mixture which can indicate, but not determine, your potential for a low or high IQ.  

    Other factors contribute to whether you fulfill your genetic potential or fall far short of it.  Ferroro's assertion that genes rule all, even when other factors are controlled for, is an extraordinary claim.  Therefore, I want to see evidence before I'm prepared to accept it.  

    When I googled the authors of the book and the piece of research that she posted, I was greeted with an avalanche of entries, most of which were entirely irrelevant to her claim.  No reasonable person would expect me to wade through all that looking for what she claims, so I ask again - post a link to the relevant piece of research that backs up your claim, Ferrero, please.

    That is not Ferrero's claim. The study I just linked you to indicated that although other factors bar genetics influence one's IQ, there is a strong indication that nature persists. That is not the same as ruling out all other factors associated with IQ and intelligence. The study claims that noted improvements in IQ levels collerated with subject being exposed to a more enriching environment plateaued off and increasingly became more similiar to that of the subject's biological family, thus indicating the role of genetics.

    In recent years, majority of thought has been geared towards accepting that the effect of environmental factors supercede genetics yet it isn't as cut and dried as that.  The question as to what intelligence itself is disputed nevermind the methods used to measure it.
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #25 - June 13, 2009, 12:51 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 13, 2009, 12:00 AM
    Its not that simple, IsLame.  Intelligence is not like eye colour, its not a simple matter of one gene which codes for low or high intelligence.  There's a genetic mixture which can indicate, but not determine, your potential for a low or high IQ. 

    Other factors contribute to whether you fulfill your genetic potential or fall far short of it.  Ferroro's assertion that genes rule all, even when other factors are controlled for, is an extraordinary claim.  Therefore, I want to see evidence before I'm prepared to accept it. 

    When I googled the authors of the book and the piece of research that she posted, I was greeted with an avalanche of entries, most of which were entirely irrelevant to her claim.  No reasonable person would expect me to wade through all that looking for what she claims, so I ask again - post a link to the relevant piece of research that backs up your claim, Ferrero, please.

    But arent you saying the same thing as Ferrero by using words like 'genetic potential'
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  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #26 - June 13, 2009, 03:41 AM
    I see a curve. although we as atheists often think that one day we can become the gods we dont believe in, human beings have a hardwired optimum and maximum setting, we are just about to reach that. We will stay happy. healthy and smart for a few hundred years and then something will happen. Maybe we mine out whatever resource has replaced oil (if there is one) or maybe the loss of 40% of the world's lands due to rising sea levels combined with global overpopulation and a massive population of 12billion will make us fight, destroy, and the dominant civilisation of now (Western) will fall. With it, our best technologies, minds, works, structures and achievements will go down a tube.

    It's all down hill from there, until a primative state. Then maybe we will get back on our feet again?
    I hear what you're saying. You're spinning my head around.
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #27 - June 13, 2009, 08:06 AM
    Quote from: Ferrero on June 12, 2009, 11:09 PM
    You may want to follow up the following pieces of research:

    Texas Adoption Study (Loehlin et al 1997)
    Loehlin, Lindzey, and Spuhler (1975)- Race differences in intelligence



    Wait, so it's not even that you are claiming that only smart people have smart kids, it's that certain races have smarter children?

    here is the wiki page about that book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_Differences_in_Intelligence

    Quote
    "The majority of the data points were based upon convenience rather than representative samples. Some points were not even based on residents of the country. For instance, the “data point” for Suriname was based on tests given to Surinamese who had migrated to the Netherlands, and the “data point” for Ethiopia was based on the IQ scores of a highly selected group that had emigrated to Israel and, for cultural and historical reasons, was hardly representative of the Ethiopian population. The data point for Mexico was based upon a weighted averaging of the results of a study of “Native American and Mestizo children in southern Mexico” with result of a study of residents of Argentina. Upon reading the original reference, we found that the “data point” that Lynn and Vanhanen used for the lowest IQ estimate, Equatorial Guinea, was actually the mean IQ of a group of Spanish children in a home for the developmentally disabled in Spain. Corrections were applied to adjust for differences in IQ across cohorts (the “Flynn” effect), on the assumption that the same correction could be applied internationally, without regard to the cultural or economic development level of the country involved. While there appears to be rather little evidence on cohort effect upon IQ across the developing countries, one study in Kenya (Daley, Whaley, Sigman, Espinosa, & Neumann, 2003[14]) shows a substantially larger cohort effect than is reported for developed countries."


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #28 - June 13, 2009, 08:09 AM
    The one you are referencing isn't even the 2006 one is it?  it's the 70's one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: The sad inevitable fate of the human race
     Reply #29 - June 13, 2009, 09:05 AM
    34 years old and with a damning write-up even for the later edition? Hmmm. Not really what I'd call solid evidence.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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