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 Topic: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?

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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #270 - October 27, 2009, 04:42 AM
    Quote from: RIBS on October 27, 2009, 04:39 AM
    Kaiwai, has your name anything to do with the lubricant K-Y?


    Funny enough - thats my nick name lol

    Although I prefer using other lubes, KY is pretty average to be honest.
    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #271 - October 27, 2009, 08:02 AM
    RIBS and Kaiwai. I totally agree with both your statements. There are some muslims who steer clear from these scientific verses, because they know the danger of trying to pull out stuff that really isn't there. There are people who say it is faith and that trying to ground it in reason is just silly. Although I disagree with the "faith" approach, I agree that it is what it is just faith.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #272 - October 27, 2009, 08:07 AM
    Quote from: kaiwai on October 26, 2009, 11:13 PM
    If that is the case then why do Muslims use 'Qur'anic science' to some how objectively validate Islam?

    Why can't they just be happy like the Christians and say it is a matter of faith?

    Or if they did that - then hardly anyone would remain Muslims?

    Every time I do get told about this 'Qur'anic science' I ask, "why didn't Maurice Bucaille convert to Islam - if it were the obvious truth and had clear and objective science then it would stand to reason that any sane person would convert to the truth?" to which I get a deafening silence.


    Does anyone have a reference which shows that he did not convert ti Islam? His books seems to show that is impressed by the Quran. That's why Muslims say he converted!

    An interview, or a video or does he have a website?
    ...
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #273 - October 27, 2009, 08:29 AM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on October 27, 2009, 08:02 AM
    RIBS and Kaiwai. I totally agree with both your statements. There are some muslims who steer clear from these scientific verses, because they know the danger of trying to pull out stuff that really isn't there. There are people who say it is faith and that trying to ground it in reason is just silly. Although I disagree with the "faith" approach, I agree that it is what it is just faith.


    Well, those who rely on the quranic science are the same sort who would rely on the bible code to claim the future can be predicted. It is people trying to find something to validate their beliefs when simply believing for their own personal reasons isn't enough - it as though they need validation from peers, both inside and outside the faith as confirmation that they have the absolute truth.

    It is quite pathetic really to watch.

    Quote from: RIBS on October 27, 2009, 08:07 AM
    Does anyone have a reference which shows that he did not convert ti Islam? His books seems to show that is impressed by the Quran. That's why Muslims say he converted!

    An interview, or a video or does he have a website?


    No conversion is noted - if he had converted it would have been a big coup for the financier of the book. In silence of evidence one assumes he never converted.
    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #274 - October 27, 2009, 08:39 AM
    Quote from: kaiwai on October 27, 2009, 08:29 AM
    Well, those who rely on the quranic science are the same sort who would rely on the bible code to claim the future can be predicted. It is people trying to find something to validate their beliefs when simply believing for their own personal reasons isn't enough - it as though they need validation from peers, both inside and outside the faith as confirmation that they have the absolute truth.

    It is quite pathetic really to watch.


    Muslims tend to have a slightly different criteria for claiming that Islam is the truth.

    1 - Mo couldn't read or write and could no way have obtained that information. To suggest that he did is merely conjecture and there is no evidence to back it up.

    2 - The Quran is preserved and it's preservation can be traced back to the Uthmani Quran as well as the many Quran Hafiz throughout the world.

    3 - Allah has guaranteed it's preservation in the Quran itself.

    4 - The hadith are eye witness accounts (traced back through isnaad) of his life and deeds, which verify his "miracles". His contemporaries knew him to be trustworthy and honest which backs up his claim to Prophethood.

    Now, this is the type of response that the muslim will give. There are flaws with all the arguments and at least one of them is circular. I'll let you spot the flaws while I check out the other threads.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #275 - October 27, 2009, 08:49 AM
    Here is the word-for-word translation of the text:


    42   وَأَنَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكَ الْمُنتَهَىٰ  
    Trans: And to your Rabb the (Ending, Conclusion)
     
    43   وَأَنَّهُ هُوَ أَضْحَكَ وَأَبْكَىٰ  
    Trans: And he him made laugh or made cry

    Note: Yawn.
     
    44   وَأَنَّهُ هُوَ أَمَاتَ وَأَحْيَا  
    Trans: And he him made dead or made live

    Note: Yawn.
    Note: (The 'he him' is redundant and quite crap use of the arabic language, a believer will state allah must have required to say 'he him' in order to mean something hidden or to preserve rhyme)
    Note: (Ask a believer what rhyme is being preserved, the believer will state it must be some hidden rhyme and allah knows best)
     
    45   وَأَنَّهُ خَلَقَ الزَّوْجَيْنِ الذَّكَرَ وَالْأُنثَىٰ  
    Trans:And he created the 'the Two pairs' male & female

    Note: Yes, the Arabic states 'Two Pairs'. If you ask a believer why the writer made such a mistake, the believer will state that the word can also mean 'The Two Marrieds'.
    Note: Male & Female? So many organisms in the world are not made from male/female pairing.

    46   مِن نُّطْفَةٍ إِذَا تُمْنَىٰ  
    Trans: From a (Nutfah - drop/smallish thing) if he wishes.

    Note: Miracle? Knowledge of the unknown? The verse states that allah can create male and female from a drop. Like it also states human is created from clay, or from dust, etc. depending which Surat you read.

    Note: No where, does it equate the drop with male sperm.
    Note: If it is the woman who picks the sex, then the nutfah can be her egg. This is a case of waiting for Science to discover head or tail, and then adapt this text to male or female as the reader sees fit.



    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #276 - November 18, 2009, 07:08 PM
    1billy9
    "I recently saw one of your videos, scientific miracles in the Koran and I believe you would do yourself a favor by taking it down.
    A. You think you know arabic better than people who study it and speak it every day.
    B. The earth really is egg shaped.
    C. The synopsis of the big bang is scientifically innacurrate because matter cannot be created or destroyed, so the matter that is part of the earth had to be present in the mass that exploded to form the galaxy."
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #277 - November 18, 2009, 07:12 PM
    Those statements are not good enough. Why the f--- don't they back up what they say rather than make assertions?
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #278 - November 18, 2009, 07:13 PM
    His assertions are rubbish.  The earth is not egg shaped and the Big Bang wasn't an explosion, he needs to read a science text book instead of rotting his brain with Zakir Naik's You Tubes.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #279 - November 18, 2009, 07:18 PM
    I get loads of stupid comments like this.

    In fact after one year of having my videos up, it is striking how Muslims have failed to truly challenge them.

    It's funny coz before I started I was worried I would get attacked right left and centre and thanks to the paranoia engendered by FFI I thought I would be getting death threats daily. The truth is I've had only a couple of jokers talking out their backside.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #280 - November 18, 2009, 07:33 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 18, 2009, 07:08 PM
    1billy9
    "I recently saw one of your videos, scientific miracles in the Koran and I believe you would do yourself a favor by taking it down.
    A. You think you know arabic better than people who study it and speak it every day.
    B. The earth really is egg shaped.
    C. The synopsis of the big bang is scientifically innacurrate because matter cannot be created or destroyed, so the matter that is part of the earth had to be present in the mass that exploded to form the galaxy."

    I think credit where credit due, these are the best countering points I have ever seen as a comment.  (btw cheetah, if an egg stands naturally i.e. on its sides, then it is in fact oblate or egg shaped)

    Because he is using logic, he is in fact more likely to become an ex-muslim than the others..
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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #281 - November 18, 2009, 07:55 PM
    The muslims believe that Allah created ex-nihilo. If this guy is now saying that matter etc existed, then according to the orthodoxy and classical scholarship, it tantamounts to shirk! As nothing can exist alongside Allah.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #282 - November 18, 2009, 08:16 PM
    He is not saying that - he is saying according to the Laws of Conservation in Physics (which is one of the primary laws), then Big Bang is disproved..  and he is right.  He is saying the earth is egg-shaped which is also correct.

    I think we should give him some credit for at least making some good arguments,which is far better than the 99% of comments I get on my channel which are related to some conspiracy theory or irrelevancy, rather than the material contained in my videos.
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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #283 - November 18, 2009, 08:21 PM
    Although both point are irrelevant as:

    1. The Qur'an does not say the earth is egg-shaped.

    2. The claim from Muslims is that the Qur'an predicts the Big Bang theory before it was known. It does no such thing.

    3. The Qur'an's description that the Heavens and Earth were split asunder bears little relation to scientific knowledge but closely reflects the myths of the time.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #284 - November 18, 2009, 09:36 PM
    Yes, thats right although he was not making any claims about what the Quran says, he was merely commenting on what science says (apart from point 1) and from where I see it he could be right
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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #285 - November 18, 2009, 09:47 PM
    Out of curiousity, how do you interpret the big bang. I'm asking you because of your background in physics.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #286 - November 18, 2009, 10:30 PM
    We never studied the big bang in detail during my degree, I did Pure Physics which had a heavy mathematical bias, and not to forget the Big Bang theory is relatively still in its infancy as theoretical models go.  

    My understanding of the Big Bang Theory is probably less than everyone else's, even though I studied the subject, I was never really interested in it - have always preferred hands on practical applications myself..
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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #287 - November 18, 2009, 10:33 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 18, 2009, 09:47 PM
    Out of curiousity, how do you interpret the big bang. I'm asking you because of your background in physics.


    What do you mean how do you interpret the Big Bang?




    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #288 - November 18, 2009, 10:45 PM
    Quote from: Rubaiyat on November 18, 2009, 10:33 PM
    What do you mean how do you interpret the Big Bang?


    Muslims and other theists understand "Bing Bang" as an event that happened ex-nihilo or out of nothing if you will. As far as my understanding of it is, is that mass and energy has always existed, the big bang is simply an event that occured, which started the universe, time space etc. This is how I understand it. I'm just curious to know how everyone else here would see that event or understand it.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #289 - November 18, 2009, 10:49 PM
    Yep, thats one of the ways I see it - the other one is that the Physics Laws dont all apply to the universe, and some are restricted to the observables we see on earth.  The third way is that scientific laws are not set in stone, even Einstein was just a man who was fallible - the only difference is that he has not been proven wrong yet, but that can happen at any time..
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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #290 - November 18, 2009, 11:02 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 18, 2009, 10:45 PM
    Muslims and other theists understand "Bing Bang" as an event that happened ex-nihilo or out of nothing if you will.
     As far as my understanding of it is, is that mass and energy has always existed, the big bang is simply an event that occured, which started the universe, time space etc. This is how I understand it. I'm just curious to know how everyone else here would see that event or understand it.


    Big Bang Theory does not say Universe came out of nothing.

    It only says that Universe started from something very small.

    Idea of Creation ex-nihilo did not exist in the ancient world - certainly not in the Babylonian Myths from which Judaism originated.

    It was the nicea-decree that I think established Creation Ex-Nihilo in Christianity.

    Mystics of all faiths reject Creation Ex-Nihilo.




    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #291 - November 19, 2009, 01:59 AM
    IsLame, egg shaped is a terrible description of the shape of the earth, and I don't see how Laws of Conservation disprove the Big Bang.

    Also, he is very obviously not using his own logic, but merely repeating apologetics he's heard from Zakir Naik and others.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #292 - November 19, 2009, 04:25 AM
    Yup, the earth is not really egg-shaped. It's a very slightly squashed sphere. The difference between the polar and equatorial diameter is only one third of one percent. This is the same as a one metre (3 1/4 feet) diameter sphere being squashed vertically by three millimetres (1/8 inch). In  other words, if you were looking at it you would think it was a perfect sphere.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #293 - November 19, 2009, 05:49 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 18, 2009, 08:16 PM
    He is not saying that - he is saying according to the Laws of Conservation in Physics (which is one of the primary laws), then Big Bang is disproved..  and he is right.  He is saying the earth is egg-shaped which is also correct.

    I think we should give him some credit for at least making some good arguments,which is far better than the 99% of comments I get on my channel which are related to some conspiracy theory or irrelevancy, rather than the material contained in my videos.

    Earth is not a perfect sphere but it is not egg-shaped by any stretch of the imagination.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #294 - November 19, 2009, 06:03 PM
    egg-shaped, i.e. the shape of an egg - not the proportions of an egg.  Its not how I would describe it either, but its one of those arguments you aint gonna win with a muslim, so I prefer to move on to my much better ones
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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #295 - November 19, 2009, 11:33 PM
    The Earth is an oblate spheroid. An ostrich egg could very loosely be described as an oblate spheroid. But that would still be inaccurate.

    But Zakir fucking Naik is lying because the Qur'an does not say that the Earth is ostrich egg shaped. I have asked numerous Arabic speakers and all of them have told me that "dahaha" does not mean ostrich egg shaped. Zakir fucking Naik just makes a loose connection through the root word for "dahaha", "duhiya" and decides that the Qur'an says that the Earth is shaped like an Ostrich Egg. What a nob.

    It is that prick that put this "miracle" of the Earth being shaped like an ostrich egg into the minds of hte masses.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #296 - November 20, 2009, 12:11 AM
    He has to know it's all bullshit. He has to. There is no way somebody could be that self-deluded.
    "when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #297 - November 20, 2009, 12:13 AM
    Quote from: AlmostAisha on November 20, 2009, 12:11 AM
    He has to know it's all bullshit. He has to. There is no way somebody could be that self-deluded.


    Either he knows he  is lying, or confirmation bias has gone ridiculously far.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #298 - November 20, 2009, 12:42 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on November 19, 2009, 11:33 PM
    The Earth is an oblate spheroid. An ostrich egg could very loosely be described as an oblate spheroid. But that would still be inaccurate.

    But Zakir fucking Naik is lying because the Qur'an does not say that the Earth is ostrich egg shaped. I have asked numerous Arabic speakers and all of them have told me that "dahaha" does not mean ostrich egg shaped. Zakir fucking Naik just makes a loose connection through the root word for "dahaha", "duhiya" and decides that the Qur'an says that the Earth is shaped like an Ostrich Egg. What a nob.

    It is that prick that put this "miracle" of the Earth being shaped like an ostrich egg into the minds of hte masses.

    Agreed - according to the Quran the word daha means flat, so the quran does not even think its spherical let alone oblate.  
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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #299 - November 23, 2009, 02:13 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 18, 2009, 10:45 PM
    Muslims and other theists understand "Bing Bang" as an event that happened ex-nihilo or out of nothing if you will. As far as my understanding of it is, is that mass and energy has always existed, the big bang is simply an event that occured, which started the universe, time space etc. This is how I understand it. I'm just curious to know how everyone else here would see that event or understand it.

    It's much more complicated then that. You can view this thread to get some sort of understanding of what happened before the big bang (http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5620.0) although it will probably leave you even more confused after you've read the thread Tongue

    EDIT: Just noticed you've already seen the thread in which case I'd like to know why you think energy and mass could always exist before the universe itself existed? That doesn't make any sense unless you agree with the Big Bounce theory.
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