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 Topic: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again

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  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #180 - June 29, 2009, 04:53 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on June 29, 2009, 04:47 PM
    Kind of. I didn't whine the way Q-Man did about the comparison, though. I just refuted him. Nor did I call him "Q-dog."


    You do understand Z-Dog was a term of familiarity, not intended in any way as an insult, right? You can call me "Q-Dog", "Q-Meister", "Q-Mania" or anything else if you like. Of course, I am saying this to someone who continues to insist "redneck" is an ethnic slur.
    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #181 - June 29, 2009, 05:05 PM
    Quote from: ExHindu on June 29, 2009, 11:04 AM
    Hatred of people based on religious beliefs or atheism is illegal in the UK.


    Yes, the UK, like many European nations, has thought-crime legislation.

    Quote
    For example, you cannot kick someone out of a school / home / employment or public group based on their religious belief or lack of religion, nor say aything abusive to someone on these grounds without breaking the law:


    This is different-- this is not regulating mere speech, it is regulating action/active discrimination. For example, in the US a neo-Nazi can make a public speech saying all kinds of nasty things against Jews, Blacks, whoever and, unlike in the UK, they cannot be prosecuted for it as they are protected by the First Amendment to the US Constitution. HOWEVER, if that same neo-Nazi owns a factory and refuses to hire Blacks or owns a housing complex and refuses to rent to Jews, then he is in violation of the law.
    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #182 - June 29, 2009, 05:07 PM
    Quote from: ExHindu on June 29, 2009, 11:04 AM
    Hatred of people based on religious beliefs or atheism
     is illegal in the UK. For example, you cannot kick someone out of a school / home / employment or public group based on their religious belief or lack of religion, nor say aything abusive to someone on these grounds without breaking the law:


    Hatred of people based on beliefs is not illegal! That's just ridiculous! I think you might be getting confused with the laws against discrimination based on race or religious beliefs.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #183 - June 29, 2009, 05:10 PM
    Quote
    Yes, the UK, like many European nations, has thought-crime legislation.


    No European country has thought crime legislation.  I think what you may be referring to are laws against incitement, eg Incitement to violence, Incitement to race hatred.  Most EU countries are sensible enough to have those - its why we don't have any Bill O'Reilly's ranting on our airwaves about "Tiller the Baby Killer" and telling lies about abortion doctors covering up child rapes. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #184 - June 29, 2009, 05:14 PM
    Quote
    No European country has thought crime legislation.  I think what you may be referring to are laws against incitement, eg Incitement to violence, Incitement to race hatred.  Most EU countries are sensible enough to have those - its why we don't have any Bill O'Reilly's ranting on our airwaves about "Tiller the Baby Killer" and telling lies about abortion doctors covering up child rapes.


    Excactly. I certainly believe free speech should have its limits.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #185 - June 29, 2009, 05:15 PM
    Cheetah-- why can't I quote your post? The button appears to be missing.

    EDIT: Nevermind-- it's back now--weird
    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #186 - June 29, 2009, 05:17 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man
    1. You asked a hypothetical question using the example of gay people being forced to wear symbols by Christians. I asked for clarification, then attempted to answer the question based on certain enumerated conditions, and after I did, you then told me that I was trivializing the oppression of Muslim women by using an "irrelevant analogy"-- YOUR irrelevant analogy. Anyway you slice it, that's a dickhead thing to pull.

    No, it was YOUR irrelevant analogy. The topic of the discussion was the social oppression of Muslim women. Your analogy involved a single gay individual ostracised for individual faults. A correct analogy would be an entire gay neighbourhood ostracised by Christian fundamentalists. You are basically saying that oppressing women, as long as physical violence is not reported, is the natural right of Muslim males. (Since the evil, evil state must never interfere.)

    Quote from: Q-Man
    2. When you challenged my belief in the state providing social services as being incompatible with my minarchist beliefs, I didn't get angry at all-- I simply linked you to posts where I had discussed this topic before. Here's the post you're referring to: Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab I fail to see the "anger" you insist I showed.

    Minarchism rejects the idea of social services and welfare state. You cannot criticise the ban on burqa on the grounds that you support minarchism, then offer a solution that directly contradicts minarchism. What happened to your criticisms of the nanny state? For all purposes, the revenues that will be used to alleviate the status of Muslim women will be extracted from unwilling taxpayers.

    You are inconsistent. You simply defend whatever suits your whims.

    Quote from: Q-Man
    However your arrogance and stubbornness

    Oh, I must be so stubborn that I fail to see the shining truth in your posts. How very arrogant of me.

    I've already said everything I must say about the hijab ban issue, and I'm glad Turkey, despite all the pressure, has managed to preserve this law. With misguided leftists and liberals like you, who needs Islamists?
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #187 - June 29, 2009, 05:21 PM
    You're both arrogant and stubborn! That's why this thread is onto its twelfth page!
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #188 - June 29, 2009, 05:23 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 29, 2009, 05:10 PM
    No European country has thought crime legislation.  I think what you may be referring to are laws against incitement, eg Incitement to violence, Incitement to race hatred.  Most EU countries are sensible enough to have those - its why we don't have any Bill O'Reilly's ranting on our airwaves about "Tiller the Baby Killer" and telling lies about abortion doctors covering up child rapes. 


    "Incitement to race hatred" is a fancy way of saying a particular kind of unpopular and hateful speech has been banned. I've been in street battles with neo-Nazis before, but at no time did I ever or would I ever support "hate speech" legislation in this country. Unless the person is saying "Go kill Black people" or some other direct incitement to racial violence, then they are exercising their free speech rights, albeit in a completely abhorrent fashion. If a society is not prepared to defend the nastiest and most objectionable exercises of free speech from government censorship, then its commitment to free speech is weak indeed.

    As far as O'Reilly is concerned, if he died tomorrow I'd jump for joy, but the government should not be allowed to censor what he says. If he really has been telling lies about abortion doctors covering up child rapes he can be sued under existing libel laws.
    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #189 - June 29, 2009, 05:26 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on June 29, 2009, 04:53 PM
    You do understand Z-Dog was a term of familiarity, not intended in any way as an insult, right? You can call me "Q-Dog", "Q-Meister", "Q-Mania" or anything else if you like. Of course, I am saying this to someone who continues to insist "redneck" is an ethnic slur.

    Sorry, we are not really so familiar that I should take the word "dog" as a compliment from you.

     Roll Eyes
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #190 - June 29, 2009, 05:27 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on June 29, 2009, 05:21 PM
    You're both arrogant and stubborn!

    Yeah, I already know. But I have defended the hijab ban against so many Islamists that, frankly, I get upset when I see people condemning the law from their ivory towers.

    Anyway, I'm off to flute practice.
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #191 - June 29, 2009, 05:27 PM
    The incitement and libel laws you have in America are not strong enough, apparently, to stop this kind of thing....

    Quote
    Right wing talker Michael Savage vowed yesterday during his broadcast that he will retaliate against media watchdog Media Matters for America by posting pictures and ?pertinent information? about the organization's staff on his website. He made the comment almost in passing during one of his infamous rants, but did not explain what he expected his followers known as the ?Savage Nation? to do with the information.

    The history of right wing extremists using ?wanted? posters against abortion providers is well documented. Recently the right wing Christian group the American Center for Law and Justice celebrated its court victory for the ?truth truck? that promoted incendiary attacks on Dr. George Tiller. Sadly two days later Tiller was dead, assassinated in his place of worship. While the court case and Tiller?s murder cannot be directly linked it demonstrated a certain morbid insensitivity that the group continued to trumpet the court victory after Tiller?s death.

    The election of Barack Obama has apparently led to an increase in the stockpiling of weapons by so-called gun rights activists. While anti-Obama celebrities like Chuck Norris, Pat Boone and Ted Nugent have suggested that it is time for a revolution against the U.S. government, others have called for military insurrection based on the theory that Obama is a Muslim ?Manchurian Candidate? who was not U.S. born. A recent Tea Party event in Arkansas featured a speaker who vowed that thousands will be dead in the streets in revolt against Obama.

    Against this backdrop the threat to post pictures and personal information about media watchdogs as a response to criticism can legitimately be perceived as a threat. Michael Savage may be famous for brash talk and incendiary language, but recent history must be taken into account as his ?Savage Nation? may take the talker?s inflammatory posting as marching orders to take action against his enemies.


    http://www.examiner.com/x-2071-DC-Special-Interests-Examiner~y2009m6d24-Michael-Savage-vows-to-post-Media-Matters-staff-pictures-and-pertinent-information-on-website

    Its no wonder the UK stopped that cunt from entering, he's clearly using the First Amendment to threaten people who he doesn't agree with. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #192 - June 29, 2009, 05:29 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on June 29, 2009, 05:17 PM
    No, it was YOUR irrelevant analogy.


    Yeah sure, and the sky is colored paisley, the moon landing was done on a sound stage in Hollywood, the Holocaust never happened, and size doesn't matter. What a jerk.

    Quote
    Minarchism rejects the idea of social services and welfare state. You cannot criticise the ban on burqa on the grounds that you support minarchism, then offer a solution that directly contradicts minarchism. What happened to your criticisms of the nanny state? For all purposes, the revenues that will be used to alleviate the status of Muslim women will be extracted from unwilling taxpayers.

    You are inconsistent. You simply defend whatever suits your whims.


    Ah yes, because I have a syncretic political belief system rather than toeing the line of orthodox (read: free-market capitalist) minarchist theory, or any other ideology, this makes me "inconsistent".  Roll Eyes Whatever, guy.
    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #193 - June 29, 2009, 05:34 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on June 29, 2009, 05:26 PM
    Sorry, we are not really so familiar that I should take the word "dog" as a compliment from you.

     Roll Eyes


    Oh geez, fuckin forget about it, then. You think "dog", in that context, was an insult and that "redneck" is an ethnic slur, but rather than admit that, because you live in Turkey, maybe, just fuckin maybe, you don't understand the context of certain slang and colloquialisms in the English language, you defend your indefensible positions to the death, because doing otherwise would involve admitting you made a mistake-- and we can't have that, now, can we?
    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #194 - June 29, 2009, 05:35 PM
    Quote
    Ah yes, because I have a syncretic political belief system rather than toeing the line of orthodox (read: free-market capitalist) minarchist theory, or any other ideology, this makes me "inconsistent".

    Yeah, and I'm an Indo-Chinese Marxist who believes in free market, welfare state, the re-institution of slavery, death camps for capitalists, and pink fairy unicorns. But that's not because I'm inconsistent and I defend something else every time the wind blows. That's because I have a syncretic political belief system, mate.

     Insert evil laugh  
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #195 - June 29, 2009, 05:36 PM
    I agree, Z-dog is not an insult.  Calling someone by their first initial followed by dog is just American slang, (and should be punished with 100 lashes for that reason alone  signmuahaha), but it wasn't an insult.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #196 - June 29, 2009, 05:37 PM
    Quote
    I agree, Z-dog is not an insult.  Calling someone by their first initial followed by dog is just American slang, (and should be punished with 100 lashes for that reason alone  signmuahaha), but it wasn't an insult.


    Should it not be Z-Dawg?
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #197 - June 29, 2009, 05:39 PM
    Possibly.  When Q says it he probly pronounces dog as dawg though, so same diff. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #198 - June 29, 2009, 05:41 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on June 29, 2009, 05:34 PM
    Oh geez, fuckin forget about it, then. You think "dog", in that context, was an insult and that "redneck" is an ethnic slur, but rather than admit that, because you live in Turkey, maybe, just fuckin maybe, you don't understand the context of certain slang and colloquialisms in the English language, you defend your indefensible positions to the death, because doing otherwise would involve admitting you made a mistake-- and we can't have that, now, can we?

    Lol. I would (almost) believe you if I haven't witnessed racists using the word "redneck."

     handjob

    Quote
    I agree, Z-dog is not an insult.

    But how is an innocent guy like me supposed to know that?

    (Can't we just punish the American for being... an American?)

    Angelic
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #199 - June 29, 2009, 05:44 PM
    Quote
    Can't we just punish the American for being... an American?)


    Race speech.  100 lashes for Z courtesy of the thought police.   040
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #200 - June 29, 2009, 05:45 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on June 29, 2009, 05:27 PM
    Yeah, I already know. But I have defended the hijab ban against so many Islamists that, frankly, I get upset when I see people condemning the law from their ivory towers.

    Anyway, I'm off to flute practice.


     Cheesy Ivory tower? Oh that's good.

    http://citynoise.org/article/9310/in/philadelphia@pa





    This is the neighborhood that surrounds my ivory tower-- the neighbors are very jealous of course  Cheesy

    In all seriousness, if you mean "ivory tower" because I live in a non-Muslim majority country, we have been speaking of a ban in Western countries, not in Muslim countries, and several pages back I already conceded that such laws may be necessary in Muslim-majority countries such as Turkey, where less-invasive methods of protecting women from oppression may not be practicable.
    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #201 - June 29, 2009, 06:06 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 29, 2009, 05:27 PM
    The incitement and libel laws you have in America are not strong enough, apparently, to stop this kind of thing....

    http://www.examiner.com/x-2071-DC-Special-Interests-Examiner~y2009m6d24-Michael-Savage-vows-to-post-Media-Matters-staff-pictures-and-pertinent-information-on-website

    Its no wonder the UK stopped that cunt from entering, he's clearly using the First Amendment to threaten people who he doesn't agree with. 


    Well, I agree with the court in the "Truth Truck" case.

    As far as Savage posting the personal information and pictures of Liberal critics on his website-- that's a bit dicey and I'm not sure what the courts will say about that when Media Matters undoubtedly seeks an injunction against it-- but it should be noted that this works both ways: http://www.onepeoplesproject.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&id=2&Itemid=3. They used to have pictures of these Nazi scum posted here too, but maybe they were forced to remove them due to legal action or legal advice-- however, home addresses remain. Also, there was a case in Washington some time ago where the photos and home addresses of police accused of brutality were posted online and the person who posted them was forced to remove the content by the courts-- even though he gathered the information from public records. Whosarat.com has been continuously fighting legal challenges over posting the pictures and information of suspected or confirmed police informants. I'm not sure how I feel about whether this sort of thing should be legal or not-- there are very good arguments to be made on both sides.
    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #202 - June 29, 2009, 07:10 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on June 29, 2009, 05:05 PM
    Yes, the UK, like many European nations, has thought-crime legislation.

    thought != speech
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #203 - June 29, 2009, 07:12 PM
    And I would still like to hear an explanation as why nudity should be regulated for the sake of kids, while facial anonymity is exempt from that.
    Since they are both social constructs.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #204 - June 29, 2009, 07:56 PM
    Quote
    And I would still like to hear an explanation as why nudity should be regulated for the sake of kids, while facial anonymity is exempt from that. Since they are both social constructs.


    If you can't figure out the difference between opening the door for trick-or-treating kids on Halloween while wearing a costume mask versus opening the door for the kids with your cock hanging out, then I can't help you.
    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #205 - July 01, 2009, 03:00 AM
    Redneck is a racist word?

    That is like saying Chav is a racist word.

    Both these words were invented and used by upper class white people to mock the lower classes based on their clothes, lack of education, and lack of social etiquette.

    One is used in the USA, the other in the UK.

    Unless I am mistaken, I always thought that redneck is the American equivalent for Chav in the UK.

    Yea, both words mean the same thing. Caucasions of lower socio economic class are called Rednecks in the USA, and Chavs in the UK, yet both of these words are mostly used by educated higher class white people, like lots of my white friends at university made fun of chavs, but  I refuse to use that word.
    We keep hearing about how Jack Straw or the French government have mentioned the veil and our doing so puts us in the same boat as them. How so? I want a ban on the burka, neqab and child veiling.

    you can either defend women or you must defend Islam. You can’t defend both

    - Maryam Namaze
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #206 - July 01, 2009, 03:52 AM
     I don't have the energy to read through this whole thread , I just wanted to point out , on the issue of beards , that the president of Turkmenistan DID in fact ban beards  - quite right too , horrible things ..
      More seriously , don't the taliban ban men from shaving ?
    and on the issue of chavs / rednecks , I don't think the terms equate directly . From my time in the states 'redneck' seemed to imply not just a particular social /ethnic background , but a spefic world view - right wing and casually racist . 'Chav ' is more apolitical , they just like burberry
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #207 - July 01, 2009, 05:29 AM
    If you go to a university in the UK though, a lot of people hate chavs.

    Actually though, it is because of the clothes and image why they get disliked, but at least they dont cover their faces ...

    Well, untill they try to rob a jewelry store that is =D.

    We keep hearing about how Jack Straw or the French government have mentioned the veil and our doing so puts us in the same boat as them. How so? I want a ban on the burka, neqab and child veiling.

    you can either defend women or you must defend Islam. You can’t defend both

    - Maryam Namaze
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #208 - July 01, 2009, 02:36 PM
    I think chav and redneck are similar but have slightly different meanings. For one thing, has aife pointed out, I don't think chav is ever used to describe someone's political/social worldview like redneck is. I think chav is probably closer to "white trash" actually.
    fuck you
  • Re: French Hijab Ban Rears it's Head Once Again
     Reply #209 - July 01, 2009, 02:43 PM
    Yes, chav=white trash.  I can't think of an equivalent for redneck, we use "gombeen" for that concept, but I don't think there's a British equivalent.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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