Muhammed was illiterate ?

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Muhammed was illiterate ?
OP - June 28, 2009, 10:14 AM

Why didnt he learn to read? Its not that hard.
I mean wasnt he like the ruler of a kingdom and a prophet for like over a decade.

He couldnt find time to learn to read in any of that time?

ps. Does following the sunna mean all muslims must not learn to read?

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Re: Muhammed was illierate?
Reply #1 - June 28, 2009, 10:22 AM

Quote from: Sahih al Bukhari Volume 9 hadith number 468 and Volume 7 hadith 573
When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, the Prophet said: "Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray." 'Umar said: "The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Qur'an, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us." The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, "Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray," while the others said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me." Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their quarrel and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing a statement for them.

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #2 - June 28, 2009, 10:35 AM

Boom tish.

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #3 - June 28, 2009, 01:37 PM

I'd already laid down a lengthy argument about Muhammad's ability to read and write, and included that (and other similar) hadith as the concluding argument.

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #4 - June 28, 2009, 02:05 PM

Quote from: Pazuzu on June 28, 2009, 01:37 PM
I'd already laid down a lengthy argument about Muhammad's ability to read and write, and included that (and other similar) hadith as the concluding argument.

I looked and I did not find your argument on this forum, but your link to your post in another http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7227&highlight=#155434 . Nice.

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #5 - August 31, 2009, 05:24 PM

Was Muhammed Illiterate? Almost all of you as former muslims the first ayah of the Qur'an that goes, ' Recite, in the name of thy Lord who created man of a single clot of congealed blood...' Muhammed's response of course was ' I can't!' I always tell my children that I hate that word! . The question relating to the Prophet Muhammed is a very good one though. If He could read, did he in fact write the Qur'an, rather than it being revealed to him by Gabriel? The Qur'an refers to Muhammed (pbuh) as Al Nabbiyyil- ummi giving the implication that he could neither read of write, and remained this way throught his entire life. However the word Ummi has been translated as also referring to people who don't know the book, referring to the previous scriptures ( Bible/ Torah). Muhammed may have been illiterate before the Qur'an, true enough, but that isn't the case during the rest of his life. In fact Muhammed stressed education, and knowledge in his Sunnah saying, 'Seek knowledge even if it be as far away as China'.
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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #6 - August 31, 2009, 05:40 PM

Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on August 31, 2009, 05:24 PM
In fact Muhammed stressed education, and knowledge in his Sunnah saying, 'Seek knowledge even if it be as far away as China'.

Forgive me, but as far as I am aware this oft-cited hadith is a fabrication, unless you can point me to the source of this hadith?

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #7 - August 31, 2009, 05:55 PM

Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on August 31, 2009, 05:24 PM
Was Muhammed Illiterate? Almost all of you as former muslims the first ayah of the Qur'an that goes, ' Recite, in the name of thy Lord who created man of a single clot of congealed blood...' Muhammed's response of course was ' I can't!'

And the 'proof' for this is the hadith, which by the way of course, not all Muslims accept that hadith or believe that he was illiterate. You can't prove Islam by Islam. Outside of the Sunni hagiography, there is no real evidence that he was or wasn't, and Sunnis have elevated this notion to an article of faith that cannot be questioned. An example of how minutiae become the heart of everything.

Quote
If He could read, did he in fact write the Qur'an, rather than it being revealed to him by Gabriel?

I think it is interesting that you capitalize 'he' for Muhammad. I haven't ever met a Muslim who did that, preferring to reserve that for allah.

This is used as one of Islam's 'proofs' that Muhammad was a genuine prophet. As if being able to read and write means you can turn out passable Arabic language poetry in an era of the language's best poets. Mountains out of molehills. We all know people who are able to read and write who couldn't write their way, creatively, out of a paper bag.

Quote
In fact Muhammed stressed education, and knowledge in his Sunnah saying, 'Seek knowledge even if it be as far away as China'.

Is this not a deviant or fabricated narration, at least as far as the 'unto China' bit?

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #8 - August 31, 2009, 07:08 PM

Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on August 31, 2009, 05:24 PM
Was Muhammed Illiterate? Almost all of you as former muslims the first ayah of the Qur'an that goes, ' Recite, in the name of thy Lord who created man of a single clot of congealed blood...' Muhammed's response of course was ' I can't!' I always tell my children that I hate that word! .

Mohammad's response is in the koran?!?

Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on August 31, 2009, 05:24 PM
The question relating to the Prophet Muhammed is a very good one though. If He could read, did he in fact write the Qur'an, rather than it being revealed to him by Gabriel? The Qur'an refers to Muhammed (pbuh) as Al Nabbiyyil- ummi giving the implication that he could neither read of write, and remained this way throught his entire life. However the word Ummi has been translated as also referring to people who don't know the book, referring to the previous scriptures ( Bible/ Torah).

Ummi, means from the Ummah. And Muhammad knew the previous scripture as he was married to a Christian woman (Khadija) by a Christian Nassurian priest. I think Ummi was referred to non-jews (gentile perhaps?)

Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on August 31, 2009, 05:24 PM
Muhammed may have been illiterate before the Qur'an, true enough, but that isn't the case during the rest of his life.

If Muhammad was literate, and it seems that he was, then it must have happened long before the koran. The koran started in Muhammad's last 20yrs, which are the year when it is harder to learn. Also in those 20 years he was very busy. When in the earlier years he had days and week riding caravan in which he could have busied himself learning. Not to mention he was a trader so in the least he knew basic math.

Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on August 31, 2009, 05:24 PM
In fact Muhammed stressed education, and knowledge in his Sunnah saying, 'Seek knowledge even if it be as far away as China'.

But then Muhammad also separated his people from the rest of humanity, "..do not take them as friends.." "..do not take them as walis.." "..you play chess is like dipping your fingers in pig's blood..", his direct companions destroyed libraries and books in Alexandria and Persia and everywhere else. Taking away money from the women every generation. All things that lead to less education and less exposure.

It is fine to 'want' to seek knowledge from China. Good intentions. But the reality, he made it impossible to seek anything from the Chinese Kufr.

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #9 - August 31, 2009, 07:17 PM

No, it's in Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 1, Hadith #3.

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #10 - September 01, 2009, 12:36 AM

I do not believe Mu. was illiterate, he was not.

@ awais;

what's in Bukhari?

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #11 - September 01, 2009, 04:46 AM

Yes Emerald, I believe that too. My guess is that Mo was highly educated... Either self-taught or even better still, he was the student of Warana Ibn Nofal and the other 3 Ahnaf who were experts in previous Abrahimic religions.

I never bought the "Waraka telling Khadija that Mohamed is the expected prophet Ahmed" story. I have a feeling that Khadija the superpowerful buisnesswoman is involved in the scam too...

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #12 - September 01, 2009, 05:15 AM

So what if he couldn't read or write?

All the pagan poets couldn't read or write. Scribes wrote down the verses they uttered.

Abu Ala' Al Ma'arri was a blind poet who wrote some of the most beautiful Arabic poetry that exist. His book "The Epistle of Forgiveness" Is in a rhymed prose that is superior and surpasses the Quran.

Whenever I tell Muslims this they are utterly and completely stumped.
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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #13 - September 01, 2009, 05:17 AM

Ah thank you for the correction.. it is considered a fabricated Hadith.
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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #14 - September 01, 2009, 05:39 AM

Quote from: Emerald on September 01, 2009, 12:36 AM
@ awais;

what's in Bukhari?

Baal edited his post, my reply was to this:

Quote from: Baal on August 31, 2009, 07:08 PM
Mohammad's response is in the koran?!?

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #15 - September 01, 2009, 06:32 AM

Hey Awais, that was not a line i edited.

Ahmad made a sentence implying the conversation happened in the koran. I was asking if it actually did happen in the koran.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #16 - September 01, 2009, 06:32 AM

Really, I already knew that. I'm surprised many Muslims didn't know that.
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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #17 - September 01, 2009, 07:09 AM

Quote from: Baal on September 01, 2009, 06:32 AM
Hey Awais, that was not a line i edited.

Ahmad made a sentence implying the conversation happened in the koran. I was asking if it actually did happen in the koran.

No, I meant you edited your post. You added on to it. Before it was just the one sentence I quoted, which would have been apparent I was responding to it, but you added more, and it was lost what I was responding to... Nevermind

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #18 - September 01, 2009, 08:39 AM

Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on September 01, 2009, 05:17 AM
Ah thank you for the correction.. it is considered a fabricated Hadith.

And that with sadness makes me wonder whether it is all just one big fabrication. You quoted from it and probably have propogated it to date on the assumption that it is true, how many other people have now gone on to tell others about it after hearing it from you.

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #19 - December 10, 2009, 02:13 AM

I haven't came across any clear evidence about whether he was truly literate or not.

From my own understanding regarding this topic, Sunni's believe he was illiterate. But Shi'as appear to believe he was literate, since they believe Omar stopped the Prophet from the 'pen and paper' he requested during the event of 'Black Thursday'. As Awais already mentioned about in his first post here;

Quote from: Awais
Quote from: Sahih al Bukhari Volume 9 hadith number 468 and Volume 7 hadith 573
When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, the Prophet said: "Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray." 'Umar said: "The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Qur'an, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us." The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, "Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray," while the others said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me." Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their quarrel and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing a statement for them.

He died on Monday. If he was able to write, would he not of written what he wanted on Thursday, during Friday/Saturday/Sunday?

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #20 - December 10, 2009, 03:03 AM

Quote from: Ibn Saba on December 10, 2009, 02:13 AM
I haven't came across any clear evidence about whether he was truly literate or not.

From my own understanding regarding this topic, Sunni's believe he was illiterate. But Shi'as appear to believe he was literate, since they believe Omar stopped the Prophet from the 'pen and paper' he requested during the event of 'Black Thursday'. As Awais already mentioned about in his first post here;

He died on Monday. If he was able to write, would he not of written what he wanted on Thursday, during Friday/Saturday/Sunday?

I second that, but lets also remember Muhammad's own background; he wasn't born into some underdog, poorly educated and lacking in power tribe, add to that his business background, working for his first wife, it would make almost no sense that he wouldn't have at least a rudimentary level of literacy - not sitting on the virtue of poetic equivalence of Shakespeare but enough to get by in terms of something functional.

I'll bet my bottom dollar that the illiteracy was made up as to settle any claims that he copied stories from Christians and Jews; unfortunately the result has been that he didn't copy, he over heard and misunderstood the stories. It seems that Muslims just can't be willing to say, "ok, if you want to believe that, then ok - but I believe that it is the word of Allah" - unwilling to just be happy believing rather than trying to contort some sort of objective truth that it is genuine.

Edit: There is a Qur'an quotation which speaks of the unlettered/unlearned prophet but that can be viewed in either one of two ways; the prophet who is illiterate or simply the prophet who has never read the respective holy books which is detractors claimed he plagiarised from.

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #21 - December 10, 2009, 04:18 AM

Quote from: Al Razi on September 01, 2009, 05:15 AM
So what if he couldn't read or write?

All the pagan poets couldn't read or write. Scribes wrote down the verses they uttered.

Abu Ala' Al Ma'arri was a blind poet who wrote some of the most beautiful Arabic poetry that exist. His book "The Epistle of Forgiveness" Is in a rhymed prose that is superior and surpasses the Quran.

Whenever I tell Muslims this they are utterly and completely stumped.

wasn't Homer himself a blind poet? He created two of the greatest story Illiad and the Oddyssey in literature

Quote from: Baal on August 31, 2009, 07:08 PM
Ummi, means from the Ummah. And Muhammad knew the previous scripture as he was married to a Christian woman (Khadija) by a Christian Nassurian priest. I think Ummi was referred to non-jews (gentile perhaps?)

Hey can I get a source on this please. Just for my own knowledge
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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #22 - December 11, 2009, 12:21 AM

Quote from: Homer on June 28, 2009, 10:14 AM
Why didnt he learn to read? Its not that hard.
I mean wasnt he like the ruler of a kingdom and a prophet for like over a decade.

He couldnt find time to learn to read in any of that time?

ps. Does following the sunna mean all muslims must not learn to read?

That is just pious fiction.

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #23 - December 12, 2009, 03:44 AM

Quote from: Ibn Saba on December 10, 2009, 02:13 AM
I haven't came across any clear evidence about whether he was truly literate or not.

From my own understanding regarding this topic, Sunni's believe he was illiterate. But Shi'as appear to believe he was literate, since they believe Omar stopped the Prophet from the 'pen and paper' he requested during the event of 'Black Thursday'. As Awais already mentioned about in his first post here;

If you'll notice that hadith is from Bukhari. It's just the Sunni narrative that says he's illiterate.

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #24 - December 12, 2009, 10:47 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on December 10, 2009, 03:03 AM
I second that, but lets also remember Muhammad's own background; he wasn't born into some underdog, poorly educated and lacking in power tribe, add to that his business background, working for his first wife, it would make almost no sense that he wouldn't have at least a rudimentary level of literacy - not sitting on the virtue of poetic equivalence of Shakespeare but enough to get by in terms of something functional.

I'll bet my bottom dollar that the illiteracy was made up as to settle any claims that he copied stories from Christians and Jews; unfortunately the result has been that he didn't copy, he over heard and misunderstood the stories. It seems that Muslims just can't be willing to say, "ok, if you want to believe that, then ok - but I believe that it is the word of Allah" - unwilling to just be happy believing rather than trying to contort some sort of objective truth that it is genuine.

Edit: There is a Qur'an quotation which speaks of the unlettered/unlearned prophet but that can be viewed in either one of two ways; the prophet who is illiterate or simply the prophet who has never read the respective holy books which is detractors claimed he plagiarised from.

Some good points.

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Re: Muhammed was illiterate ?
Reply #25 - December 12, 2009, 10:51 AM

Quote from: awais on December 12, 2009, 03:44 AM
If you'll notice that hadith is from Bukhari. It's just the Sunni narrative that says he's illiterate.

Yeah, I'm aware the Hadith is from Sahih Al Bukhari. I was saying the way the Shi'a use this Hadith, in arguing with the Sunni's, they believe the Prophet was literate. And the fact is, they do believe the Prophet can read and write.

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