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 Topic: Does he have a point?

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  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #30 - July 11, 2009, 05:25 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on July 11, 2009, 04:47 PM
    Are you talking about Tamberlyn4u's comments? Unless I missed something, I'm not certain what's concerning you.


    Well I guess I am extremely concerned that I do not give any ammunition to right-wing racists like the BNP.

    For example I have my 18 year-old daughter visiting me at the moment and she wears Hijab and tells me about how she sometimes gets racist remarks hurled at her.

    There is no doubt that there is a climate of hate and paranoia towards Muslims - including my own daughter.

    The last thing I want is to add to that - in any way.



  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #31 - July 11, 2009, 05:29 PM
    He hasn't got the point. I do agree with him in that criticism of Islam is sometimes used as a legitimate cover for racism and I agree there is an atmosphere of vilification about right now. One very good example I have of this is when that Hesperado geezer came here and was massively disappointed that this wasn't a hate filled site.  But that is not to say that all criticism of Islam panders to, and is motivated by anti-muslim racism. There are many a critic of Islam who offer legitimate criticism and polite discussion about Islam, and are not motivated by animosity towards muslims and you are definitely one of them.




    By the way Q-Man, do you want to start another thread about knife crime? That went massively off topic!
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #32 - July 11, 2009, 05:57 PM
    Quote from: pakman on July 11, 2009, 05:05 PM
    I'm surprised you guys are considering his points seriously.



    Ditto.
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #33 - July 11, 2009, 05:59 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on July 11, 2009, 05:25 PM
    Well I guess I am extremely concerned that I do not give any ammunition to right-wing racists like the BNP.

    For example I have my 18 year-old daughter visiting me at the moment and she wears Hijab and tells me about how she sometimes gets racist remarks hurled at her.

    There is no doubt that there is a climate of hate and paranoia towards Muslims - including my own daughter.

    The last thing I want is to add to that - in any way.


    Oh, well if that's what you're worried about-- do some videos speaking out against that sort of thing. Problem solved.

    No reason to stop doing the Islam videos, though. Critics like you are an important counterweight to the Ali Sinas and Geert Wilders of the world. It's important to have voices like yours in the wilderness of the internet, so that people can see it's not simply a choice of uncritical and unconditional support of Islam or unrestrained hatred and fear of Muslims-- already too many people who think that way and who are polluting the internet with their bullshit.

    Quote from: aliadiere on July 11, 2009, 05:29 PM
    By the way Q-Man, do you want to start another thread about knife crime? That went massively off topic!


    If you really want to, but since I got the last word in, it's okay if the discussion ends here.  Wink
    fuck you
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #34 - July 11, 2009, 06:02 PM
    Quote from: pakman on July 11, 2009, 05:05 PM
    I don't think he has a point at all. That is like saying that Zaki Nayik and Deedat should not scrutinise Christianity because it could lead to attacks on Christians. Or that Muslims shouldn't criticise Homosexuality becuase it could lead to Homophobia. Or Muslims should not talk about women in disparaging terms because it could lead to domestic violence and indeed it has on many occasions.

    I think the person is disturbed by your calm and rational critique and because he can't just dismiss you as an 'Islamaphobe' he has tried a different tact.

    I'm surprised you guys are considering his points seriously.


    I think pakman's right  Afro

    Can I call you Matt Parkman? That's if you don't mind me having an image of you as being a bit on the chubby side...
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #35 - July 11, 2009, 06:10 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on July 11, 2009, 05:59 PM
    Oh, well if that's what you're worried about-- do some videos speaking out against that sort of thing. Problem solved.


    Exactly! Rational debate is a very precious thing which is very important for a progressive society, in my opinion. These people who are criticising you for it don't place value on it one bit! They think that if it could possibly contribute towards race hate then might as well do away with it.

    You know that that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

    In my opinion, you already make it clear enough that you are against racial hatred and things like that. But if it is concerning you, just make it a bit more clear, like have your own signature paragraph at the end of each video where you condemn usage of your videos for incitement of racial hatred. I think you already have down that for some of your videos but not all.

    Saying it could contribute to racial hatred so might as well do away with it is like culling a small pen of chickens with suspected bird flu by carpet bombing the whole farm, cuz you know, it might have spread into the rest of the farm.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #36 - July 11, 2009, 06:15 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on July 11, 2009, 05:59 PM
    Oh, well if that's what you're worried about-- do some videos speaking out against that sort of thing. Problem solved.


    Yes, I was thinking of doing that.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #37 - July 11, 2009, 06:36 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on July 11, 2009, 04:34 PM
    There have been several comments now on my channel about this (that I am contributing to an atmosphere of hate towards Muslims) and I can't say it doesn't concern me.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/discussislam


    Looks like an interesting, and important discussion, is taking place over there.  Shame they wont join us over here.
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  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #38 - July 11, 2009, 06:39 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on July 11, 2009, 05:25 PM
    For example I have my 18 year-old daughter visiting me at the moment and she wears Hijab and tells me about how she sometimes gets racist remarks hurled at her.

    That must be hard having a daughter that wears hijab & imo misguidedly believes in Islam.  Not sure how I would deal with it - how do you bite your tongue?
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  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #39 - July 11, 2009, 06:47 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on July 11, 2009, 06:15 PM
    Yes, I was thinking of doing that.

    You already have it apologetically emblazoned at the beginning of your introduction!

    Quote
    I am an ex-Muslim (and am now Agnostic), but am NOT against Islam or any religion, but simply believe we should all be free to express our views and beliefs - so long as they don't incite violence against anyone.

     

    I remember first reading it and surprised at why you had start of with that, rather than introducing yourself as most people do.  It was almost like you were carrying an enormous guilt chip on your shoulder, and I did not even know you then.  I can understand why say it, but we must remember Muslims have been carrying on like that in a more arrogant fashion for years,  its time we had a counterweight.
     
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  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #40 - July 11, 2009, 08:00 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on July 11, 2009, 06:39 PM
    That must be hard having a daughter that wears hijab & imo misguidedly believes in Islam.  Not sure how I would deal with it - how do you bite your tongue?


    I leave it to her how she wants to live her life. She is a great girl - intelligent, confident, happy, independent and loving. That's all that matters to me.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #41 - July 11, 2009, 08:07 PM
    I agree with Peruvian.  The BNP aren't going to use you or any other ex-muslim face from a mixed race background.  They will do what Geert Wilders did and use muslims who preach extremism and hate.

    If any of these people are seriously worried about criticism of Islam being used as a cover for racism they should be tackling the Islamist voices who are likely to find their speeches regurgitated for racist propaganda.

    Also, if you follow their logic, we should cordon off critics of Islam from critics of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc, and place them instead on a continuum of racism which leads inexorably to the extreme right, Nazis and persecution.  Close down the forum, pull your You Tubes, nobody utter another word against the Qur'an or Sunnah, because that's all giving cover to inciters of racial hatred.  Does anybody seriously think that it will make muslims one iota safer if Islam, alone of all religions, becomes a sacred cow which is above criticism in polite circles?

    I don't because the only people likely to be swayed into silence are those who were reasonable and non-hateful to begin with, like us.  The hateful voices won't give a hoot about the effect of their words and the whole debate will become more polarised and strident. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #42 - July 11, 2009, 08:15 PM


    Excellent points Cheetah -  Afro

    Especially this:

    Quote from: Cheetah on July 11, 2009, 08:07 PM
    If any of these people are seriously worried about criticism of Islam being used as a cover for racism they should be tackling the Islamist voices who are likely to find their speeches regurgitated for racist propaganda

  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #43 - July 11, 2009, 08:19 PM
    Actually that was Peruvian's point first.   grin12  And yes it is an excellent point and I agree with her.  You shouldn't take any notice of emotional blackmail, they're just trying to hit your Achilles Heel because they have no response to the contents of your vids.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #44 - July 11, 2009, 08:39 PM
    Sorry - great point Peruvian  Afro

    I wonder if they spend so much time - or more - telling the idiots who post all the Hizbi/Muhajiroun and extreme Salafi stuff - that they are inciting violence against Muslims.

    My guess is they don't.

    I guess they don't consider them to be a part of the "Inciting Violence Continuum" lol
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #45 - July 11, 2009, 08:43 PM
    Quote
    I wonder if they spend so much time - or more - telling the idiots who post all the Hizbi/Muhajiroun and extreme Salafi stuff - that they are inciting violence against Muslims.


    Are you missing my posts Hassan? I mentioned that same point you just made in my post too Tongue
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #46 - July 11, 2009, 09:04 PM
    Sorry Peru - I must have skim read it and it didn't register - I have been distracted today.

    Sorry hun  thnkyu
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #47 - July 11, 2009, 09:11 PM
    Hehe that's ok Tongue
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #48 - July 12, 2009, 12:37 AM
    So is this why your brother Jack keeps on telling you to forget about refuting Islam and to just leave it behind, because your very self-crticial and always wanting to justify yourself whenever you are challenged?

    I think it's a good trait of yours, actually. I'd rather be too self-critical than not self-critical enough.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #49 - July 12, 2009, 04:16 AM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on July 10, 2009, 04:13 PM
    He is just trying to guilt-trip you. Ask him if we should all just cease criticising any religions because it may drive someone else over the edge? Should we ban tv because it may incite unethical behaviour? Should we ban the news as it may cause paranoia and vigilante attacks? Should we ban the internet as it gives criminals a place to gather and organise crime?

    Should we all be held responsible for something we did not do? Should we ban everything simply because it may cause negative consequences whilst ignoring the worse negative consequences that the ban itself would cause? What a silly world that would be!

     i agree with you, Peruvian Skies. I also think that some of this people, that are truly hate mongering racist against muslims are trying to take advantage of your critical analysis of Islam to spread their racism. While the former had no objective criticism of islam, they will use our words and say"see? muslims are violent!", while we know that it is simply not true.  while one is trying to simply spread their racism, the other is trying to get muslims to read their holy book, critically analyse them and eventually, leave islam for good.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #50 - July 12, 2009, 06:23 AM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies
    Should we ban tv because it may incite unethical behaviour? Should we ban the news as it may cause paranoia and vigilante attacks? Should we ban the internet as it gives criminals a place to gather and organise crime?

    Absolutely!
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  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #51 - July 12, 2009, 08:29 AM
    Quote from: J4m3z on July 12, 2009, 12:37 AM
    ...your very self-crticial and always wanting to justify yourself whenever you are challenged?

    I think it's a good trait of yours, actually. I'd rather be too self-critical than not self-critical enough.


    Maybe it's a good trait, but it can also be a real pain in the arse!
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #52 - July 12, 2009, 09:12 AM
    If you're not self critical enough then you wont see the woods through the trees.  If you're too self critical then this can lead to self-doubt, lack confidence in your own instincts and can lead to misery.

    Best to try & be somewhere in the middle where few of these symptoms occur.
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  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #53 - July 12, 2009, 02:33 PM
    Yeah I agree with IsLame. And with Jack a little bit now. I think maybe your being a bit too defensive? I'm not sure but after this thread I'm starting to get that impression. Your vids are still cool Hassan and you make a good role-model, it's just you don't give yourself the benefit of the doubt sometimes.

    Careful though, because I think I was once like you, very self-disciplined, and then I decided to be a bit easy on myself, and now I think I'm starting to slack and not being self-critical enough. If you can get the balance just right, you'd be unstoppable  Afro
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #54 - July 12, 2009, 04:38 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on July 11, 2009, 05:07 PM
    It's still the same religion with the same violent extremists so it makes no difference.


    You dont understand what Im talking about, here's what Im talking about :

    "There is no doubt that there is a climate of hate and paranoia towards Muslims - including my own daughter.

    The last thing I want is to add to that - in any way."

    The general climate (for obvious reasons) is much more hostile towards Muslims then say during the 1960s, thats all I meant.
    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #55 - July 12, 2009, 05:19 PM
    Arab, I think Hassan is approaching it from the right angle. 9/11 or not he couldn't be any softer on Islam.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #56 - July 12, 2009, 05:57 PM
    If Hassan went any softer on Islam, he would be accused of being a Muslim.
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  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #57 - July 12, 2009, 06:12 PM
    Quote
    The general climate (for obvious reasons) is much more hostile towards Muslims then say during the 1960s, thats all I meant


    I don't think so.  I'd say the atmosphere worsened after 9/11 compared to the few years before 9/11, but the 1960s?  Enoch Powell was a mainstream, front bench politician back then and a quick look, at television made in the 60s shows that all forms of xenophobia and bigotry were more acceptable then than they are now.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #58 - July 12, 2009, 06:41 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on July 12, 2009, 05:57 PM
    If Hassan went any softer on Islam, he would be accused of being a Muslim.

    Astagfarullah!
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  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #59 - July 12, 2009, 06:50 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on July 12, 2009, 05:57 PM
    If Hassan went any softer on Islam, he would be accused of being a Muslim.


    Not so long ago one Christian Fundie said I still hadn't left Islam. I used to get similar comments on FFI. "You can take the Muslim out of Islam but you can't take the Islam from the Muslim" was a phrase I heard a few times.

    In other words Muslims can never be good in some ppl's eyes - even if they leave Islam and publicly denounce it.

    At the same time no matter what an ex-Muslim does in the eyes of some Muslims, he is "inciting hatred & violence" toward Muslims.

    I am the sort of person that is very self-critical to a fault - but I reckon if I have both extremes attacking me I've got it about right  Afro
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