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 Topic: Any biologists or evolutionists who can check out these claims?

 (Read 7132 times)
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  • Re: Any biologists or evolutionists who can check out these claims?
     Reply #30 - October 23, 2009, 08:04 AM

    Your mate is a worry. Seriously, get some new mates. That one needs a brain transplant.  grin12

    My fucking cat knows more about modern evolutionary theory than your mate.


    Evolution and the origins of the cosmos are two things that strike right at the heart of what muslims feel. Particularly evolution, because it goes against the whole Adam and Eve story.

    The origins of the cosmos is a mystery to both the atheist and the theist. The difference being that the theist just sticks in God as the cause.
  • Re: Any biologists or evolutionists who can check out these claims?
     Reply #31 - October 23, 2009, 08:41 AM




    "Look around you, the beauty around you suggests a god exists"


    Friend's mate said:
    Quote
    For me, the materialist (or reductionist) perspective is very partial, since it omits important questions of consciousness, value and purpose that seem very obviously part of the human world. It seems to me to lack any sympathy with the idea of an objective Ideal of supreme goodness and beauty, towards which human life is orientated at its most basic level, and which is apparent in the intelligibility of the physical world, in the sense of personal presence that can be felt in prayer and contemplation.



    The Case For God, Scientists & Evolution

    Quote
    For Dawkins, believing in evolution ultimately assumes an atheistic outlook, which he teaches with messianic zeal and unassailable certainty. However Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, and many other prominent biologists, have made the case for belief in God as the best and most satisfying explanation of the way things are. Many philosophers, too, are contemplating "theistic evolution," an idea which predates Darwin, as it has been mentioned in Eastern philosophical writings dating over 3000 years ago. This is the notion that life manifested from inert matter, and that all life, through the process of evolution, is progressing back towards oneness with God, from which all things had manifested.

    This means, then, that evolution is more than a blind upward push from below, through the ceaseless threats from environment. Evolution is also a process of reaching upward towards fulfilments yet to be achieved. "The fact that life is capable of evolving to higher levels of awareness," writes Donald Walters, "means that life's highest potential is the central reality, of which the lower forms are as yet but imperfect manifestations. The lowest life forms may be compared, in other words, to the first, tentative brush strokes on a vast, uncompleted canvas."

    Science speaks of potential energy. This is what is present on a playground swing, for example, before it is released from the top: though the swing is momentarily motionless, it contains all the energy potential for its downward movement. Life, similarly, contains in its humblest beginnings all the potential for its highest future development?a potential presumably far greater than that realised by mankind up to the present time. Life must, gradually, of its own nature, find its way to higher and higher manifestations of awareness....

    This allegory might well be applied to organic evolution. Certainly there is no overt sign of divine intervention evident in the long, tortuous, and apparently random process of natural selection. No conscious goal was required, no omniscient guide to blaze the evolutionary trail. Quite sufficient?and far more marvellous, surely?has been the innate urge of life to experience, to understand, to explore, to enjoy?and, ever more fully, through self-expression, to discover its own highest potential.




    God as a creator


    Friend's mate said:
    Quote
    The greatest artist is always the one who allows his creations in a sense to "create" themselves, to work out their own destinies, without the imposition of his own predetermined ends and inclinations. If the human creator gives his creations so much scope for self-expression, is it not impious to impute less sensitively to the Cosmic Creator towards His universal handiwork?

    Persons who believe in God for good reasons are those who believe that the universe is rational and intelligible; they will also be concerned with the trustworthiness of human reason. They will be those who think that consciousness is a kind of reality that is inexplicable in purely material terms, and that it is a fundamental and irreducible element of reality; those who think that its emergence in animals from a long process of increasing physical complexity and organisation requires explanation in terms of an envisaged goal and intension; those who have some experience of transcendent value in beauty and in morality; those who feel the attraction of an Ideal of truth, beauty and goodness, which is objective; and those, moreover, who wish to penetrate in thought beyond sensory appearances to the hidden reality that lies beneath.

    They will not be, as Dawkins would have us believe, those who are deranged, deluded and deceived; or those who have their intellectual capacity hijacked by an infectious, malignant God-virus.

    I conclude that, not only do the results of science point towards the Mind of God behind this universe, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.

    Inevitably, of course, we all have our own biases and presuppositions before we hear anyone's opinions. For the God hypothesis, there are essentially just two options. Either human intelligence ultimately owes its origin to unguided, mindless matter; or there is a Creator. Is it not bizarre that some people claim that it is their intelligence that leads them to prefer the former to the latter?


    Will be responding to the above later.
  • Re: Any biologists or evolutionists who can check out these claims?
     Reply #32 - October 23, 2009, 12:24 PM

    Really good post on the facebook Atheist group that I found in relation to the 'Darwinist conspiracy theory':

    Quote
    In 1616, the very powerful Catholic church condemned Galileo's claim of a heliocentric solar system as "false and contrary to Scripture". In 1632, he was arrested and kept under house arrest until his death in 1642.

    It wasn't until 1758 when a full ban on his literature was lifted by the church. By 1835, a heliocentric solar system was accepted as fact by all facets of science and religion.

    In 1939, Pope Pius XII, acknowledged Galileo as as being among the "most audacious heroes of research ... not afraid of the stumbling blocks and the risks on the way, nor fearful of the funereal monuments".

    In 1990, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and issued a declaration acknowledging the errors committed by the Church tribunal that judged the scientific positions of Galileo Galilei, as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture.

    In March 2008 the Vatican proposed to complete its rehabilitation of Galileo by erecting a statue of him inside the Vatican walls.

    In December of the same year, during events to mark the 400th anniversary of Galileo's earliest telescopic observations, Pope Benedict XVI praised his contributions to astronomy.

    Thanks to Wikipedia.

    Darwin's theory of evolution is 150 years old. Considering that science was in its infancy during the time of Galileo and allowing for the advancement in study and technology we have today, I suspect we'll have to deal with this sort of bullshit for at least another 50 years before there's a statue of Charles Darwin on the front lawn of Ray Comfort's house.

    Until then, I simply choose to ignore assholes such as this; history will forget them and remember those who made a difference.


  • Re: Any biologists or evolutionists who can check out these claims?
     Reply #33 - October 23, 2009, 01:18 PM

    Quote
    I suspect we'll have to deal with this sort of bullshit for at least another 50 years before there's a statue of Charles Darwin on the front lawn of Ray Comfort's house.

     dance

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  • Re: Any biologists or evolutionists who can check out these claims?
     Reply #34 - October 24, 2009, 11:58 AM

    My mates response:
    Quote
    About the idea of Allah (God) being the perfect creator vs evolution...imagine a jungle in the middle of nowhere, untouched my technology or modern times, undiscovered so to speak. And imagine living in this jungle, also having had no contact with technology or modernisation, a uncivilised person. Now one day your walking in the jungle and suddenly you come across a car sitting in the middle of this jungle...something you've never seen before. lets say the cars a lamborghini, with all these streaks and lines across its body, and streamlined shape, with all these fiddly knobs and switches inside.

    From the way the car is, it would be absurd to say that the car had developed over thousands if not millions of year and gradually become the way it is, that every little part had developed from nothing and become the way it is now due to evolution.... Read more

    No, instead such a thing could have only been CREATED, to have everything in precisely the right place, each part DESIGNED to play its role perfectly, from the wheels, to the engine, to the exhaust, to the axles...the design of this lamborghini must have been CONCIOUSLY DESIGNED to be streamline and to work the way its meant to, to fulfill its PURPOSE. In fact the most logical explanation is that for this item to be created, there must indeed have been a CREATOR who created it.

    here we use the example of a car, which relative to the human body or nature, is very very simple in creation...the human body and the animals that adorn the earth are infinitely more complex and difficult in their design...
    indeed Allah the all wise creator, has created everything perfectly, each thing in nature perfect for its role.

    The sheer scale of probability and chance involved for evolution to be even remotely feasible, destroys evolution and anyone with common sense can see that. If we were to take this to the next step, Islam (not religion, cos a lot of religions are flawed, however Islam is the one true religion and there is enough evidence of Allah's work around us)...Islam teaches that evolution is an evil-notion, and that all things were created for a purpose by Allah, his designs are perfect and hence are not subject to needing to be improved over time, we as human beings are extremely versatile and adaptive to our environments and have been so since time immemorial, since the first human Adam.

    Anyways Ima leave it at that, anything else pls feel free to pm me, as this status has been over longaged! easy ppl


    My response:
    Quote
    I'm going to say just a couple of things to that.

    a) If you think evolution is about chance, you have MINIMAL understanding of it and I suggest you read up on it.
    b) If we are the perfect design, why on EARTH do we have an appendix, it's about as useful as a sex toy attached to the roof of that car!

  • Re: Any biologists or evolutionists who can check out these claims?
     Reply #35 - October 24, 2009, 12:11 PM

    Your friend needs some basic grounding in logic and very basic philosophy. What he has done is given a typical example of what is called "The teleological argument for the existence of God". BEFORE you construct an answer for him or attempt a debate I suggest you get yourself familiar with the refutations.

    Before you speak to him get familiar with these arguments:-

    http://www.godlessgeeks.com/WhyAtheism.htm

    Look up teleological on that page and read up on ID. Also if you want to add more meat on the bones try this:-

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/design.html

    There is no rush. Get yourself acquainted with the above.
  • Re: Any biologists or evolutionists who can check out these claims?
     Reply #36 - October 24, 2009, 12:31 PM

    Thanks Omaar, that's a lot of help. I will have a read through it, but I don't think I want to argue with someone who does not want to familiarize himself with the concept of Evolution.

    Nonetheless, I'm gonna read through your links to prepare myself in future....I'm not surprised him and his friend didn't join the forums.
  • Re: Any biologists or evolutionists who can check out these claims?
     Reply #37 - October 24, 2009, 12:33 PM

    If you summarize your mate's argument, he's saying:

    Let's take something that is obviously designed by an intelligence and that shows a lot of details and fine-tuning. You would never believe that it was not designed.
    So, anything that shows a lot of details and fine-tuning is obviously designed!

    lolz Cheesy!

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Any biologists or evolutionists who can check out these claims?
     Reply #38 - October 24, 2009, 02:53 PM

    His mate who was debating before with me has now written:

    Quote
    [She] is right in saying that we are not particularly well designed. The appendix, one that unnecessarily leads to the potentially fatal condition of appendicitis, is just one of many structures which seem to be useless or badly designed. Others include, for instance, the existence of unnecessary wings in flightless birds, such as ostriches; or the fact the some snakes have hind-legs which serve no purpose at all (the genetics of which can be traced to its ancestors).

    In his book, Finding Darwin's God: A Scientists Search for Common Ground between God and Evolution, Ken Miller dismantles the creationist viewpoint harshly.

    Watch this 4min video of him explaining human evolution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8FfMBYCkk

    Or, if you want to see the full 2hr lecture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg


    Gonna watch those youtube clips later.
  • Re: Any biologists or evolutionists who can check out these claims?
     Reply #39 - October 24, 2009, 06:09 PM

    Also let him now that if we did not evolve, why do we still have the DNA for tails, which a few are still born with?



    If we are so perfect and he does not believe in natural selection, why do some people die shortly after being born. some born with physical or mental conditions?

    How do they explain the evidence nfor our own skeletal transformation ?

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  • Re: Any biologists or evolutionists who can check out these claims?
     Reply #40 - October 24, 2009, 07:24 PM

     jawdrop I have never seen that before! Holy moly...
  • Re: Any biologists or evolutionists who can check out these claims?
     Reply #41 - October 25, 2009, 01:53 PM

    Hello Spiral, last year it was discovered that the Appendix acts as a store for good bacteria for when the body runs out. Also I can think of many uses for a sex toy on the roof of a car. For One you can now car-surf on the roof of that car and hang on to that sex toy for dear life.

    Yee-Ha!!

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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