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 Topic: British Tolerance - Good or Bad

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  • British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     OP - August 23, 2009, 12:57 AM
    I have been living here in UK for over 10 years. When I moved here from Pakistan, I was shocked to see Muslims here. I come from Lahore, which is a very libral. I have been to many countries but here in UK I saw the most backward breed of Muslims. This infect helped me to leave Islam, about which I already had some serious doubts.

    I love this country. London, where I live, is home to people from over 100 countries. If we exclude Muslims, no one has any problem with anyone. People from all cultures mix and this creates a wonderful atmosphere, which is unique and seems perfect.

    This perfect multi cultural society came into existanse because of British tolerance, religious and racial. However, Muslims have never lost any opportunity to abuse this.

    Brits take one step back, in the name of tolerance, to please Muslims. Muslims take 2 steps forward. Muslims have been pushing the boundary to the unreasonable limits. As a result, we see certain reactions. BNP has won seats for the first time in the history. General population has started to feel uncomfortable. This is not only because of the relectunce of Muslims to integrate into the British society but also because of their open hate for this country and people of other faiths.

    The question is, where would this stop? Would it lead to an eventual land slide victory for the nationalists (may be after 20 years)? How should governement and the British society tell Muslims, enough is enough.

    Any thoughts?
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #1 - August 23, 2009, 01:02 AM
    I think you are painting a picture with a very broad brush here. To say that in the UK "no one has any problem with anyone" is a bit of an exaggeration I would think, even if you do leave Muslims out of the equation. Also it is not true to say that "Muslims" (meaning all of them) have "open hate for this country and people of other faiths". Some do and some don't.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #2 - August 23, 2009, 01:11 AM
    British tolerance is always good imo.

    We know what the line is, i think the British will know when someone is taking the piss.
    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #3 - August 23, 2009, 01:23 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on August 23, 2009, 01:02 AM
    I think you are painting a picture with a very broad brush here. To say that in the UK "no one has any problem with anyone" is a bit of an exaggeration I would think, even if you do leave Muslims out of the equation. Also it is not true to say that "Muslims" (meaning all of them) have "open hate for this country and people of other faiths". Some do and some don't.


    I have been eagerly looking forward to meet a Muslim, who does not have any open or hidden hate for people of other faiths.

    Yes there might be a few problems here and there but they are nothing compared to the problems Muslims have created. No group in the UK has people like Anjum Chaudhry, Bakri and many others.
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #4 - August 23, 2009, 01:33 AM
    Quote from: open_thinking on August 23, 2009, 01:23 AM
    I have been eagerly looking forward to meet a Muslim, who does not have any open or hidden hate for people of other faiths.

    Yes there might be a few problems here and there but they are nothing compared to the problems Muslims have created. No group in the UK has people like Anjum Chaudhry, Bakri and many others.


    I'm curious about something.  America has far more precocious freedoms of speech than the UK, so why is there no American equivalent to Chaudhry and his despicable ilk?  Is it something to do with the cultural background of UK immigrants?  Ie, is it more a signal that countries like Pakistan need to pull their socks up a bit in combatting extremism than a sign that Britain needs to somehow overturn 100s of years of liberalism?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #5 - August 23, 2009, 01:37 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on August 23, 2009, 01:33 AM
    I'm curious about something.  America has far more precocious freedoms of speech than the UK, so why is there no American equivalent to Chaudhry and his despicable ilk?  Is it something to do with the cultural background of UK immigrants?  Ie, is it more a signal that countries like Pakistan need to pull their socks up a bit in combatting extremism than a sign that Britain needs to somehow overturn 100s of years of liberalism?


    European and American Muslims differ wildly.

    In my opinion i think Muslims in US are forced to integrate by society and change a bit of them to survive. If one does not survive with a job etc. in US, they fail. In Europe we have a welfare state where they can pump money from us and need to do nothing to integrate.

    In US, Muslims are amongst the highest paid group wealth wise and Muslim females are educated second only  to Jews.
    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #6 - August 23, 2009, 01:43 AM
    Quote from: Meredith on August 23, 2009, 01:37 AM
    European and American Muslims differ wildly.

    In my opinion i think Muslims in US are forced to integrate by society and change a bit of them to survive. If one does not survive with a job etc. in US, they fail. In Europe we have a welfare state where they can pump money from us and need to do nothing to integrate.

    In US, Muslims are amongst the highest paid group wealth wise and Muslim females are educated second only  to Jews.


    That's a very interesting point.  I don't have an answer to that, but I would point out that muslims in my own country, (Ireland), are also very well integrated even though we do have a welfare state, free health care, etc. 

    I think you've raised a very  interesting point there, though.  How much does welfare dependency feed into extremism, and why?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #7 - August 23, 2009, 01:52 AM
    I think also british and american people have quite different attitudes - most americans are unashamedly patriotic , in  away that makes a lot of us quite uncomfortable , but at the same time they project the attitude that you're lucky if you get to live there . In Britain we're more self effacing , at least on the surface , i think  sometimes there's an element of us expecting people to see through that and being upset when they take us at our word and slag us off .
      there's also the fact that america is simply a much bigger country and simple logistics mean people have to fit in with the prevailing culture
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #8 - August 23, 2009, 01:53 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on August 23, 2009, 01:33 AM
    I'm curious about something.  America has far more precocious freedoms of speech than the UK, so why is there no American equivalent to Chaudhry and his despicable ilk?  Is it something to do with the cultural background of UK immigrants?  Ie, is it more a signal that countries like Pakistan need to pull their socks up a bit in combatting extremism than a sign that Britain needs to somehow overturn 100s of years of liberalism?


    Pakistani or any other extremists will pour into those countries which allow it.

    7/7 bombers were not fresh immigrants, they were born here.

    The difference between UK and the USA, hmm.

    I agree with Meridith. They forced integrations. You cannot force something in a tolerant society.

    America attracted Pakistan's cream. My father was a geologist. All his friends from the uni are today settled in US. Most Pakistanis there are from educated backgrounds, unlike UK.

    Who came to UK? People from extremely poor areas, who were not only very backward but also had reduced sized brains because of breading with first cousin sisters for generations.
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #9 - August 23, 2009, 01:57 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on August 23, 2009, 01:43 AM
    That's a very interesting point.  I don't have an answer to that, but I would point out that muslims in my own country, (Ireland), are also very well integrated even though we do have a welfare state, free health care, etc.  

    I think you've raised a very  interesting point there, though.  How much does welfare dependency feed into extremism, and why?


    Oh i am sure there are exceptions to the rule. But i am talking generally not specifics.

    The welfare system is the trap for not only Muslims but immigrants in general imo.
    Infact i think welfare breeds only dependency on the state and is something that prevents people from working for their lifes not tto mention stops integration. There are people who are living off the state for generations in some parts of UK and what this does is breed a generation of those who take for granted what they have in UK.

    The Muslims coming into US in comparison come from (generally speaking) well educated countries or are rather ambitious. The whole 'american dream'. Anyone immigrating to US knows it is no easy ride and are by default forced to accept the culture or society they have come into.

    I'd like to say the foundation of US also plays a role. In US, no one is native (apart from the NA). It is a country of immigrants together so you can fuse yourself in easier than in Europe where you always will be the outsider in another persons country.

    Not to mention this cock and bull ideal liberalism UK and Europe has where we tolerate intolerance
    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #10 - August 23, 2009, 02:04 AM
    OT - it is nice to hear you like our country , but I think you're overstating things a bit . There is some tension amongst other groups , although I think compared with some other places we're doing pretty well . During the last  couple of decades in london we've seen street battles between sikhs and hindus in west london , asians and white skinheads in southall , greek and turkish cypriots in north london , somalians and jamaicans in a few areas etc. etc . I think perhaps we attach too much importance to racial / national motives in some cases , the older i get the more I think a lot of this stuff is just down to the gang mentality and young men letting off steam / trying to prove themselves .
      That said , there is a real problem with the growing influence of islamist groups , and with our confused response to them .and the people who really suffer from the spread of fundamentalist / reactionary beliefs and practices are british muslims , which is why it's important that people like you are speaking up .
        As for the BNP , there's no doubt that they have gained some ground , but they're still a tiny minority , most british people despise them . they only managed to get into the european parliament because the european elections use proportional representation and there was a very low turnout
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #11 - August 23, 2009, 02:16 AM
    Reading some of these posts, I suspect Britain has a far larger problem than muslims not integrating.  I don't really know where to start or analyse it, and I'm not British anyway so I should probly just shut up..... Thread sneaker
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #12 - August 23, 2009, 02:19 AM
     ?
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #13 - August 23, 2009, 03:28 AM
    I think also it's hard to take some muslim reactions too seriously and also trying to be PC they are soft spoken, but I agree with meredith, Britain will know where to draw the line.
    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #14 - August 23, 2009, 02:24 PM
    The British had a need for a work force that was prepared to work in its manufacturing industry at low wages.  Sometimes whole families including villages in India & Pakistan came to work in the UK  for this reason, some of those were often considered by the Indians & Pakistanis as the sub-classes.

    The US has a different need, and primarliy segragated on the basis of education.

    So in reality we have 2 different immigrant types: those that came to save their future, and those that immigrated to improve it.
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  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #15 - August 23, 2009, 04:21 PM
    Quote
    The British had a need for a work force that was prepared to work in its manufacturing industry at low wages.  Sometimes whole families including villages in India & Pakistan came to work in the UK  for this reason, some of those were often considered by the Indians & Pakistanis as the sub-classes.

    The US has a different need, and primarliy segragated on the basis of education.

    So in reality we have 2 different immigrant types: those that came to save their future, and those that immigrated to improve it.

     


    As a side issue to this discussion, I have noticed amongst the generation before mine, like the ones who cames here in the late fifties and sixties, some of the Pakistani muslims didn't pay alot of attention to settling here in the UK for good. They put alot of their time into working and sending money "back home" to parents and other family members. Their aim was to make enough money to eventually return to Pakistan. This resulted in not enough attention being paid to the education of their children. This was fairly evident amongst those immigrants who came from Azad Kashmir and poosibly less so amongst the people from the Punjab and Sindh. Amongst the Indian hindus and sikhs things were slightly different. They came here settled quickly and made this country their home. As a result they concentrated on the future of their children, by making sure that their education was paramount. The result of this can be seen in terms of how many children from second generation hindu and sikh communities swell the professional ranks in comparison to their Pakistani counterpart. There are exceptions to the rule of course and this is usually whether or not the first generation was itself educated. Another pattern I've noticed is that the Pakistani's seem to be driven by making money rather than how much esteem is carried by a profession. This is solely my opinion and may not be shared by others.
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #16 - August 23, 2009, 05:36 PM
    Quote from: open_thinking on August 23, 2009, 01:53 AM
    Who came to UK? People from extremely poor areas, who were not only very backward but also had reduced sized brains because of breading with first cousin sisters for generations.

    That's a good point and may well be one of the reasons for extremism. In Pakistan when the Mangla Dam was built in Mirpur, it displaced over 110,000 people. Britain issued work permits for some of these people hence why there are many Mirpuri's in England. Mirpur has a very backwards culture.
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  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #17 - August 23, 2009, 06:55 PM
    Quote
    Mirpur has a very backwards culture.


    Not strictly true. My parents are from Mirpur and so are the vast majority of my family. You will usually find that those who claim to be Mirpuri are usually from surrounding villages or districts and Mirpur is only mentioned as a matter of convenience. There are people from Mirpur city who are educated and intelligent. Unfortunately Mirpuri's have been pigeon holed into stereotypes by people who simply are not from Mirpur.
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #18 - August 23, 2009, 07:03 PM
    Mirpuris are the rural poor and they take a lot of flak for that. Snobbery if you ask me.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #19 - August 23, 2009, 07:07 PM
    Quote from: open_thinking on August 23, 2009, 01:53 AM
    America attracted Pakistan's cream. My father was a geologist. All his friends from the uni are today settled in US. Most Pakistanis there are from educated backgrounds, unlike UK.

    Who came to UK? People from extremely poor areas, who were not only very backward but also had reduced sized brains because of breading with first cousin sisters for generations.


    Firstly, you sound like a snob.

    And secondly, you can't be that "open thinking" if you seriously believe that people from poor areas are thick and the reason for this is because they marry cousins and this causes their offspring to be born with smaller brains.

    I know somebody who's parents are first cousins and he has a phd.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #20 - August 23, 2009, 07:31 PM
    Tolerance is a good thing.

    Intolerance is a bad thing.


  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #21 - August 23, 2009, 08:44 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on August 23, 2009, 07:07 PM
    Firstly, you sound like a snob.

    And secondly, you can't be that "open thinking" if you seriously believe that people from poor areas are thick and the reason for this is because they marry cousins and this causes their offspring to be born with smaller brains.

    I know somebody who's parents are first cousins and he has a phd.


    Thanks for your reply.

    I am expressing my views assuming that people on this forum, who have rejected their religion, are smart enough to dismiss backward cultural practices as well. But obviously this is not true for all.

    I have nothing against people from poor areas. But when I visit Bradford and Keighley and I see naked children walking in streets. I see 16 year old girls taken to Pakistan and married to their cousins they have never seen before. I see parents discouraging their children from higher education.

    And this is not that they just moved from their village last year. They have been here for 60 years, 3 generations.

    There is noting wrong with being poor (they are not poor btw) but being backward and sticking to it like a religion for generations definitely requires some thinking.

    By the way, did I mention Mirpur in any of my posts?  Wink
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #22 - August 23, 2009, 08:58 PM
    You were talking about how America attracted the Pakistani Educated elite, and the UK didn't.

    Then you went on to say that the Pakistanis who came to the UK were not only poor, and not only are backwards, but are also thick because they marry first cousins and this causes the offspring to have smaller brains!

    Quote from: open_thinking on August 23, 2009, 08:44 PM

    I am expressing my views assuming that people on this forum, who have rejected their religion, are smart enough to dismiss backward cultural practices as well. But obviously this is not true for all.



    And I am expressing my views assuming that the people on this forum have moved away from narrow-minded snobbery and wouldn't make ridiculous statements like the following:
    Quote
    Who came to UK? People from extremely poor areas, who were not only very backward but also had reduced sized brains because of breading with first cousin sisters for generations.


    Does anybody else see how stupid, ridiculous and offensive that sentence is!


    And by the way, I did not mention Mirpur either.  Wink
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #23 - August 23, 2009, 09:02 PM
    Quote
    Does anybody else see how stupid, ridiculous and offensive that sentence is!


    +1

    I'm offended. I'm married to my first cousin and my kids are extremely intelligent. I have friends who are married to first cousins and have intelligent children with nothing wrong with them whatsoever.
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #24 - August 23, 2009, 09:04 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on August 23, 2009, 08:58 PM
    Does anybody else see how stupid, ridiculous and offensive that sentence is!


    Yep. I think it's pretty obvious!
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #25 - August 24, 2009, 01:21 AM
    imo, the molems in usa seem to be more moderate for a few reasons:

    1- foreigners in usa appear able to create thriving communities. there is a lot of support from their own kind but also relatively peaceful coexistence with the others.

    2- other than the original natives, there are really no real americans with a long history and culture. communities and rules have formed over the past couple of centuries as different waves of outsiders migrated in. the germans, the french, the irish, italians, chinese, vietamese, persians, armenians, etc. have arrived in large numbers in different periods and have slowly dissolved into the miasma.

    3- there is racism here for sure, but the laws are very strict againt discrimination. a business can be successfully sued for bias against a certain age, sex, religion or ethnicity.

    4- usa is farther away and more isolated than europe. more cumbersome to travel back home and get contaminated with radical ideas.

    5- there's less stigma attached to mingling with foreigners. americans probably aren't being made to feel like they're selling out their culture if the marry an indian or a chinese.

  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #26 - August 26, 2009, 12:04 PM
    Quote from: 20yearstoolong on August 23, 2009, 06:55 PM
    Not strictly true. My parents are from Mirpur and so are the vast majority of my family. You will usually find that those who claim to be Mirpuri are usually from surrounding villages or districts and Mirpur is only mentioned as a matter of convenience. There are people from Mirpur city who are educated and intelligent. Unfortunately Mirpuri's have been pigeon holed into stereotypes by people who simply are not from Mirpur.

    I was judging by my own family. I guess it was an unfair generalisation but I keep hearing from everybody else that Mirpur is more backwards then the rest of Pakistan.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #27 - August 26, 2009, 12:13 PM
    This is a very interesting topic!

    One thing i dont really understand about some british muslims is the way they piss and moan about how the west is such a terrible place. They moan that the uk/us government have it in for muslims...well im not sure about the US, but it pisses me off abit here in the UK.

    They have been allowed to come and live and work in the UK with freedom of religion, protection from the law, they have free education and have the same rights as everyone else. #They have been allowed to build mosques and even implement elements of sharia courts.

    Why, if a government hates muslims, would they be allowed to do this? wacko

    Do muslims in the UK think they are the only ones being butt fugged by the government? ...
  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #28 - August 26, 2009, 12:24 PM
    Quote from: Meredith on August 23, 2009, 01:37 AM
    European and American Muslims differ wildly.

    In my opinion i think Muslims in US are forced to integrate by society and change a bit of them to survive. If one does not survive with a job etc. in US, they fail. In Europe we have a welfare state where they can pump money from us and need to do nothing to integrate.

    In US, Muslims are amongst the highest paid group wealth wise and Muslim females are educated second only  to Jews.


    You hit the nail on the head there Meredith.  Yes, in the USA immigrants are encouraged to integrate more and actively seek work rather than just be given handouts by the government which coudl be a major contributing factor to why US Muslims are more integrated than UK Muslims.

    One of the very first things I noticed about UK Muslims when I first moved here is that although not so disparate as US Muslims and more organised due to the vast amount of numbers within the UK, Muslims in the UK tend to have a more militaristic and backwards view of the world than any Muslim I ever knew back in the US. 

    It was exactly this type of mentality that I kept running into which prompted me to distance myself from the UK 'ummah'.
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

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  • Re: British Tolerance - Good or Bad
     Reply #29 - August 26, 2009, 12:31 PM
    Quote from: Glen on August 26, 2009, 12:13 PM
    This is a very interesting topic!

    One thing i dont really understand about some british muslims is the way they piss and moan about how the west is such a terrible place. They moan that the uk/us government have it in for muslims...well im not sure about the US, but it pisses me off abit here in the UK.

    They have been allowed to come and live and work in the UK with freedom of religion, protection from the law, they have free education and have the same rights as everyone else. #They have been allowed to build mosques and even implement elements of sharia courts.

    Why, if a government hates muslims, would they be allowed to do this? wacko

    Do muslims in the UK think they are the only ones being butt fugged by the government? ...


    I was also interested to learn on a recent doc on conspiracy theories on 7/7 the leading moderate muslim leader i think it was in Birmingham?...thinks the government here have it in for muslims and were infact behind the bombings.
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