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 Topic: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?

 (Read 17862 times)
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  • Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     OP - August 23, 2009, 05:18 PM

    Holy fuck, it irritates me so much. You try to talk to them, and they put their fingers in their ears and shout! They call me names, they call me a liar, and they cannot take a grain of criticism. I have debated Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and others before, but none of them act like Muslims do today. Why is it that most Muslims resort to name calling and ad hominem attacks when debating, why are they like this? Don't they realize that they are giving themselves a bad name by doing this?

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #1 - August 23, 2009, 05:20 PM

    They have a lot to be insecure about.
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #2 - August 23, 2009, 05:22 PM

    They have a lot to be insecure about.

    That's actually a pretty good explanation... =O
    It's always misinterpreted or mistranslated in their eyes.

    Twitter: https://twitter.com/ExMuslims
    Council of Ex-Muslims of the Netherlands will be back!

    Never doubt that a small group of commited people can change te world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. -Margaret Mead
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #3 - August 23, 2009, 05:23 PM

    They sure do lol. Sometimes I feel like smacking them upside their head, or smack them with a reality stick! What with their name calling and all that good stuff. Angry

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #4 - August 23, 2009, 06:05 PM

    That's actually a pretty good explanation... =O
    It's always misinterpreted or mistranslated in their eyes.


    HAHA yeah that's my mom's excuse, the rest of them never even read the "good" book yet if you're not muslim, they're soooo much better than you. What a crock of shit

    Closets after closets
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #5 - August 23, 2009, 06:58 PM

    I find that you can't have a proper debate with Muslims or Christians. Mainly because they have a few multi-use sentences that can just end a discussion.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #6 - August 23, 2009, 07:16 PM

    I find that you can't have a proper debate with Muslims or Christians. Mainly because they have a few multi-use sentences that can just end a discussion.


    Not to mention that they only quote scripture after scripture instead of answering your question.

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #7 - August 23, 2009, 08:44 PM

    Yep, I've found Christians are every bit as bad although they are usually ostensibly polite. Buggers will drive you up the wall with bullshit though.  Roll Eyes

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #8 - August 24, 2009, 01:04 PM

    No religion has had the balls to be as crass as Islam is since the middle ages. The others try to appear civil, but Islam shamelessly delights in its shunning of any "bida'a" that would make it appear more civilized. Not that this would make it any truer.

    Maliki yawm ul LULZ
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #9 - August 24, 2009, 01:09 PM

    They have a lot to be insecure about.


     Afro I think so too!

    ...
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #10 - August 31, 2009, 04:07 PM

    I can see why you are be so frustrated with debating Muslims... I think it may that you are debating people who really don't know their Deen as you or  they may think.  Which would explain their frustration with your arguments.. they simply don't have the answer, yet still feel the need to defend their faith. I'm guilty of it as well, especially when I first converted to Islam. It wasn't until I became an Imam for an Islamic center in Texas that I began to see things a little clearer on how to debate an individual without resorting to hostilities. I had to learn my faith, in order to show someone else who may not be familiar with it, or have a misunderstanding of it what it's truly about. I don't really debate anymore.. I do enjoy it, and try to whenever I do make it a learning experience for everyone.  some helpful advice though the next time you do debate get to know a little bit about the person first and always try to avoid things that are offensive, phrasing questions, and arguments in offensive ways. Good luck to you in your next debate!
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #11 - August 31, 2009, 04:16 PM

    Welcome Imam_Ahmed! Are you still a muslim? You should tell us more about yourself in the Introductions forum and what brings you here Smiley
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #12 - August 31, 2009, 04:28 PM

    I can see why you are be so frustrated with debating Muslims... I think it may that you are debating people who really don't know their Deen as you or  they may think.  Which would explain their frustration with your arguments.. they simply don't have the answer, yet still feel the need to defend their faith. I'm guilty of it as well, especially when I first converted to Islam. It wasn't until I became an Imam for an Islamic center in Texas that I began to see things a little clearer on how to debate an individual without resorting to hostilities. I had to learn my faith, in order to show someone else who may not be familiar with it, or have a misunderstanding of it what it's truly about. I don't really debate anymore.. I do enjoy it, and try to whenever I do make it a learning experience for everyone.  some helpful advice though the next time you do debate get to know a little bit about the person first and always try to avoid things that are offensive, phrasing questions, and arguments in offensive ways. Good luck to you in your next debate!


    I know Classical Arabic, it's my mother tongue I'm fluent in it.

    I have completed the Quran more than 40 times in Classical Arabic with proper Tajweed. I have also looked into tafseer ibn Katheer and Tafseer al jalalain

    I have read volumes of Hadith, both Sunni and Shia

    I have read the figh books by both Sunni and Shia scholars

    I have read the biography of the Prophet

    I have read Islamic history in full

    What more must I know of? I'm the full package when it comes to Islam. I know everything there is to know about it.

    I found it's useless to debate true hard believing Muslims. The best thing to do is plant doubt in their hearts. For example, sometimes I speak in Classical Arabic to appear all sarcastic. When I do so I commit a grammatical error same as the ones in the Quran. The other person will try to correct me and I'll say "But the sentence is from the Quran!". I have had at least 3 people leave Islam because I did this.

    يا أيها المدعو أحمد، ولن أناديك بلقب الإمام لأنني لا اعترف به. ماذا تريد مني؟ لقد قرأت كتب المسلمين حتى كادت الأيات القرأنية تخرج من مناخيري. لم أجد فيها إلا المغالطات والسب والهباب. إن لم تفهم كلامي الفصيح فكيف تفهم سجع ربك القرآني؟
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #13 - August 31, 2009, 04:39 PM

    Quote
    إن لم تفهم كلامي الفصيح فكيف تفهم سجع ربك القرآني؟



     Cheesy

    ...
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #14 - August 31, 2009, 04:42 PM

     Huh?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #15 - August 31, 2009, 04:44 PM

    Quote


    يا أيها المدعو أحمد، ولن أناديك بلقب الإمام لأنني لا اعترف به. ماذا تريد مني؟ لقد قرأت كتب المسلمين حتى كادت الأيات القرأنية تخرج من مناخيري. لم أجد فيها إلا المغالطات والسب والهباب. إن لم تفهم كلامي الفصيح فكيف تفهم سجع ربك القرآني؟



    It doesn't work that way, there is  no comparitive thinking, critical thinking or assessment involved, it is good because they have been taught from birth and because everyone around them thinks the same way.

    You have to remember that you have this ability because you left Islam, and that probably took years and years of some kind of desensitisation.

    Also-rhetorical questions do not appeal to Arabs.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #16 - August 31, 2009, 04:48 PM

    Rhetorical questions don't appeal to any kind of religious people.

    I know that the vast majority of Muslims are like that because of their environment, if that is the case why do they feel superior to non-Muslims?

    They're only Muslims because of the environment, not because of some amazing personal effort on their part.
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #17 - August 31, 2009, 04:51 PM

    Yes but I don't think they realise that, if you say that they will say: "nu ah, we are Muslims because Islam is the truth".

    It's a vicous cycle-thinking Islam is true, and that's why you are right, and that's why you are a Muslim and you are a Muslim because Islam is true

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #18 - August 31, 2009, 04:53 PM

    Even if they've been spoon fed to death, all it takes is a little doubt.

    I told my little sister to explain to me why the Fatiha sounded like a prayer. She couldn't. So she started reading Muslim books and then she found out that the fatiha was not included in some codices.

    How about that? She found out about that all on her own.
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #19 - August 31, 2009, 04:55 PM

    Oh and also, even though you've read it so many times in unabridged classical arabic until the verses started coming out of your nose, most Muslims are non arabs and haven't even read it once in classical unabridged Arabic, and those Arabs who have-either don't understand classical arabic and pretend they do-rather they have their own understanding based on their own: "lehjey" (dialect) or they read some kind of tafseer. Another problem is that Arab countries (yes all of them) are so sever in everything and knee deep in shit religious thinking that even if half of them read the Quran and got the original message it wouldn't matter. Violence is rife and acceptable and tolerance is a word with no equivalent in Arabic (not literally).

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #20 - August 31, 2009, 04:57 PM

    Little doubt =/= leaving Islam. It takes hundreds of little doubts and a few big doubts to leave Islam, and in the meanwhile the questions can be answered by rubbish non-existent answers.

    I unfortunatley have realised that unlike other Muslims, Arabs are the most doomed. Heck even I wouldn't have left Islam if I hadn't had found out that I am 0% Arab and lied to all my life. You are lucky, and Emerald is too and a few handful of others-mainly in the diaspora.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #21 - August 31, 2009, 04:58 PM

    I can see why you are be so frustrated with debating Muslims... I think it may that you are debating people who really don't know their Deen as you or  they may think.  Which would explain their frustration with your arguments.. they simply don't have the answer, yet still feel the need to defend their faith. I'm guilty of it as well, especially when I first converted to Islam. It wasn't until I became an Imam for an Islamic center in Texas that I began to see things a little clearer on how to debate an individual without resorting to hostilities. I had to learn my faith, in order to show someone else who may not be familiar with it, or have a misunderstanding of it what it's truly about. I don't really debate anymore.. I do enjoy it, and try to whenever I do make it a learning experience for everyone.  some helpful advice though the next time you do debate get to know a little bit about the person first and always try to avoid things that are offensive, phrasing questions, and arguments in offensive ways. Good luck to you in your next debate!


    Welcome Imam_Ahmad! Wow, you were the Imam of the Islamic Centre in Texas (you are not the poster I used to know called Mace over at ummah.com/forum are you?)

    Anyway it would be great to hear your story if you could post it in the Introductions Forum.  Afro
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #22 - August 31, 2009, 05:01 PM

    Thanks for pointing out the shithole that I have to go back to once I finish my studies. I'll find a way to escape to the West. I'm sick and tired of Arab religious culture. Ever since I abandoned Islam I've felt like I've got no culture.....

    If you do not know another language besides Arabic in Arab countries you're screwed. You can never leave Islam unless you find some rare Arab atheist book.

    This happened once:

    Me: Dammit, we're going to miss our flight!
    My friend : Sal 3ala al nabi (pray for the Prophet or rather pray on the prophet)
    Me: Why the hell does he need my prayers and how is that going to get us to the airport? Shouldn't we ask Allah?
    My friend: But it says so in the.....
    Me: in the Quran? No, it doesn't moron. It says you should mention prayers when you utter the Prophet's name not when you can't get a fucking ride to the airport.
    My friend:.........
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #23 - August 31, 2009, 05:05 PM

    Sorry, I didn't mean to be insensitive or sound it, I realise that this is a sore spot for you and I have little invested in it myself. However, I am myself saddened by the fact that it is harder to convert or reform the Muslim core than getting a cow to make chocolate milk-that's why I wasn't exactly being polite or euphemistic, not to depress you further.

    Sorry again.

    Also, that conversation emulates the type of thinking that has doomed them-unfortunately. It's good though that you are spreading at least some intelligence to others without being questioned about it.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #24 - August 31, 2009, 05:13 PM

    Most of my Muslim friends think I'm super religious because I don't drink (don't like the taste) and am polite most of the time. As if that's all it takes to be a Muslim.

    They even know I don't pray but they lie to themselves saying "He's just shy of praying in front of other people".

    BTW, are you by any chance Persian, Turkish, Kurdish, Egyptian, Assyrian, levantine, tamazegh, berber.....etc or any other ethnicity that has had Arabism forced on them?

    I've got Persian and Hebrew blood in me myself. But my ancestors lived in Kuwait for more than 200 years so they consider themselves to be 100% Arab and I guess I'm stuck with that. 
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #25 - August 31, 2009, 05:14 PM

    Huh?


    يا أيها المدعو أحمد، ولن أناديك بلقب الإمام لأنني لا اعترف به. ماذا تريد مني؟ لقد قرأت كتب المسلمين حتى كادت الأيات القرأنية تخرج من مناخيري. لم أجد فيها إلا المغالطات والسب والهباب. إن لم تفهم كلامي الفصيح فكيف تفهم سجع ربك القرآني؟


    "Oh you called Ahmad - and I won't call you by the title Imam because I don't recognise it - what do you want from me? I have read the books of the Muslims until the Qur'anic verses almost came out my nostrils. I didn't find anything in it apart from errors and cursing and crap. If you cannot understand my pure Arabic speech then how can you understand the ryhmed Qur'anic prose of your Lord?"

     Cheesy
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #26 - August 31, 2009, 05:15 PM

    thnx

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #27 - August 31, 2009, 05:19 PM

    Thanks for pointing out the shithole that I have to go back to once I finish my studies. I'll find a way to escape to the West. I'm sick and tired of Arab religious culture. Ever since I abandoned Islam I've felt like I've got no culture.....

    If you do not know another language besides Arabic in Arab countries you're screwed. You can never leave Islam unless you find some rare Arab atheist book.

    This happened once:

    Me: Dammit, we're going to miss our flight!
    My friend : Sal 3ala al nabi (pray for the Prophet or rather pray on the prophet)
    Me: Why the hell does he need my prayers and how is that going to get us to the airport? Shouldn't we ask Allah?
    My friend: But it says so in the.....
    Me: in the Quran? No, it doesn't moron. It says you should mention prayers when you utter the Prophet's name not when you can't get a fucking ride to the airport.
    My friend:.........


    lol...

    But like you say they're Muslims because of their environment - not because have really thought about Islam deeply!

    Forgive them.
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #28 - August 31, 2009, 06:04 PM

    I can see why you are be so frustrated with debating Muslims... I think it may that you are debating people who really don't know their Deen as you or  they may think. 


    Not for nothing, but this is the go to excuse of Muslims anytime any Muslim is caught out saying something stupid, or saying something violent in front of the non-Muslims, or is otherwise puzzled by challenges or questions put to him or her by non-Muslims.  How many times have we, the former Muslims, heard someone explain away bin Ladin, Hamas, progressivist Islam, violence against women, Salafism, Sufism, Shiism, clitoridectomy, Saudi Arabia, women who don't wear hijab, and the rest of it with 'they don't really know their deen?'

    It would appear that almost no Muslim really knows the deen. 

    Quote
    Which would explain their frustration with your arguments.. they simply don't have the answer, yet still feel the need to defend their faith.


    You know, this is a mark of immaturity.  If Islam was everything that Muslims claim it is, then they would know that they are unable to defend it, as it stands on its own as the totally true and final and perfected religion of Big Al.  Islam says god is all powerful, all knowing, all wise, etc.  In such a case, do not Muslims realise what spiritual crime they commit when they presume to protect the one they say created them?  If Big Al is everything they say he is, then he doesn't need defending.  He could deal with those who criticise or question Islam on his own. 

    What is interesting to me is that Muslims will do this with each other.  Be a Muslim who raises questions about Aisha or about the slaughter of bani Qurayza, and see how your own friends and family will turn against you, 'defending the deen', and telling you to shut up and blindly believe.  Just for asking questions or daring to admit that there are things in the life of Mo that make you uncomfortable.  'Defending the deen' is, in my experiences, code for 'shut up and believe... or else, because you might cause me to think!'

    Quote
    always try to avoid things that are offensive, phrasing questions, and arguments in offensive ways.


    Seeing as how our mere existence as former Muslims is offensive to many Muslims, I doubt we can avoid that.  Muslims claim to be horribly offended by everything - you can't avoid it. It's part of the martyr complex.   piggy

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Why is it so frustrating to debate a Muslim?
     Reply #29 - August 31, 2009, 06:31 PM

    thank you... no, this is the first forum I have visited, and actually decided to post on. I have alot more free time. I resigned from my position in Texas, and am now helping at the Islamic center of Tacoma.
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