The Ramadan Pole Paradox

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The Ramadan Pole Paradox
OP - August 28, 2009, 05:59 PM

This set of questions and answers explores Ramadan's relation to the North and South Poles. According to Islamic rules, the keeping and breaking of a fast is related to times of sunrise and sunset which do not occur near the Poles as they would on other places on the Earth.

Q: How long is the day and night in countries near the North & South Poles?

* A: As we get closer to the North or South Pole, the day or night might extend for up to several months each. On the Noth Pole itself, daylight lasts 24 hours during the summer months and darkness lasts for 24 hours during the winter months.

Q: How can a Muslim fast in Ramadan in these countries?

* A: A Muslim can not fast otherwise he/she will starve to death.

Q: Why can't a Muslim fast during Ramadan near the Poles?

* A: The Pious will start the fast in the morning and end it when the Sun sets. Considering the Sun will be up in the sky for days and weeks and month, the pious will have to starve to death. Our bodies can survive for multiple days without food but we will die without water.

Q: What solution did Islamic Scholars offer to the Pious?

* A: Islamic scholars offered the only Mickey Mouse solution they could offer. The scholars made a fatwa that the pious can follow the schedule of his original country or the schedule of the closest country with a distinguishable day & night.

Q: Why it is not a valid solution to follow the schedule of our original country?

* A: What if the Muslim was born near the Poles? And why do I have to follow the schedule of another country? What kind of solution is this anyway?

Q: Why it is not a valid solution to follow the schedule of the closest country where day & night can be distinguished?

* A: Again, why do I have to follow the schedule of another country? And what does the 'Closest Country' mean? The closest country will still have a day or a night that will extend for 23 hours.

The North Pole.

Q: Why do you think Islam did not take into consideration Muslims living near the Poles?

* A: We can understand some desert dwellers not knowing about the poles, but the Creator of the Universe should have known better.

Q: Don't you think the rules for Ramadan were imposed by a Divine Entity?

* A: Impossible. Whoever made these rules either believes that the Earth is Flat, or the Earth is in a Perfect perpendicular tilt relative to the Sun. A real Creator would not make such an astronomical blunder in regards to his/her Creation.

Q: Many People believe the Qur'an is Satanic. Do you agree?

* A: Absolutely not. Satan would not have made such an astronomical blunder either. Satan would know that the Earth is a tilted sphere relative to the Sun. Satan would not have made this mistake.

Q: What do you think Muslims should do about the Ramadan Paradox?

* A: They should stop believing in fairy tales.

Q: Did Muhammad fast Ramadan?

* A: Muhammad, got himself and all the prophets before him an exemption from having to fast, because the
weight of the revelations is too heavy. Muslims should get an exemption for themselves too.

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #1 - August 29, 2009, 06:19 AM

There's also a fiqh rule that you fast according to the time of sunrise on the last day on which there was a clearly distinguished sunrise or sunset in your area. And said one scholar, 'If this results in 18 hours of fasting so be it. IT is a struggle and a test and there is a bunch of shit coming out of my ear.'

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #2 - August 29, 2009, 08:05 AM

Yep, I wrote this few Ramadans ago. I was being super-nice too. The rules of how to fast Ramadan are not in the koran. The koran only orders people to fast Ramadan, it does not describe that they should fast in relation to the Sun.

The Ramadan rituals, do not directly attack the koran, they only prove how flawed the tradition and the hadith and the knowledge of Muhammad were.

If I wanted to be a bit of a prick and tarnish the koran, I would have wrote the same article, but on the prayers time. The koran states Three prayer times (Not Five) and all of them are in relation to the position of the Sun in the sky. Good luck of course, finding the Sun at noon (or any time during the day or night) North of Sweden in January.

Now, please do not shoot me I am just the messenger, shoot the creator of the universe who messed up the book, and also feel free to shoot that other other messenger.

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #3 - August 29, 2009, 08:15 AM

Quote from: fading on August 29, 2009, 06:19 AM
There's also a fiqh rule that you fast according to the time of sunrise on the last day on which there was a clearly distinguished sunrise or sunset in your area. And said one scholar, 'If this results in 18 hours of fasting so be it. IT is a struggle and a test and there is a bunch of shit coming out of my ear.'

What if it the day lasts 6 month, followed by night which also lasts 6 month?

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #4 - August 29, 2009, 10:56 AM

Quote from: http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/5842/
It was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told his companions about the Dajjaal (antichrist). He was asked how long he would stay on earth, and he said, ?Forty days, one day like a year, one day like a month, one day like a week and the rest like your days.? It was said, ?O Messenger of Allaah, the day which is like a year, will the prayers of one day be sufficient for us then?? He said, ?No, estimate them.? So the day which will be like a year is not regarded as one day in which only five prayers will be sufficient, rather we are obliged to offer five prayers in each twenty-four hour period. He commanded them to offer the prayers at intervals as on a regular day.

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #5 - August 30, 2009, 05:39 AM

Good on you Baal, I always wondered about this stuff but I convinced myself that Satan was messing with me.

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #6 - August 30, 2009, 02:29 PM

2 stupid questions that have been bugging me today:

1) Why does the earth rotate - there must be a some force for it to spin on its north-south pole axis which gives us night & day
2) If the earth spins at around 700 miles per hour (about 10 times the motorway speed limit), why are the leaves on trees sometimes perfectly still?

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #7 - August 30, 2009, 03:18 PM

Earth rotates because of conservation of momentum, as the rocks that formed the earth would colide into one another the linear momentum goes into rotation. Also maybe energy consevations, like the rocks falling into the center of gravity would lose gravitational potential energy and that would be converted into rotational kinetic energy, and some into heat (or maybe all into heat...not sure).

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #8 - August 30, 2009, 03:23 PM

There is no friction in from space that's why there is no relative motion and we don't 'feel' the force. I think that's it. Like in a car or a train you feel like you're just sitting still even though you are moving, it's because everything in the train is moving at the same velocity as you are. It's something to do with frames of references being indistinguishable unless you have an acceleration, so when the car slams on the breaks you have a deceleration and you feel that.

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #9 - August 30, 2009, 04:16 PM

Quote from: stardust on August 30, 2009, 03:18 PM
.... Like in a car or a train you feel like you're just sitting still even though you are moving, it's because everything in the train is moving at the same velocity as you are. ....

Well explained stardust! Although it is easy to understand the second question from IsLame (leaves not moving with earth). I still need to understand why the earth does not slow down with time? Can any one care to answer the question number 1 please?

1) Why does the earth rotate - there must be a some force for it to spin on its north-south pole axis which gives us night & day

...
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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #10 - August 30, 2009, 04:45 PM

Quote from: RIBS on August 30, 2009, 04:16 PM
Well explained stardust! Although it is easy to understand the second question from IsLame (leaves not moving with earth). I still need to understand why the earth does not slow down with time? Can any one care to answer the question number 1 please?

1) Why does the earth rotate - there must be a some force for it to spin on its north-south pole axis which gives us night & day

Again, I suppose because there's no friction(with space) to slow it down. right?

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #11 - August 30, 2009, 07:49 PM

Quote from: Baal on August 29, 2009, 08:15 AM
What if it the day lasts 6 month, followed by night which also lasts 6 month?

It is my understanding that at the poles, during the transition from long nights to long days there are days that have a clearly marked day and night. It doesn't go from 21 hours of darkness to 21 hour of daylight overnight.

You're not looking for the ulemaa to make sense here, are you? If one must fast 18 hours, so be it! If the fast is only six hours, so be it! The first is a test from the great and almighty Big Al and the second is an example of his endless compassion and mercyzzzzzzzzzz.

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #12 - August 30, 2009, 07:59 PM

Yes, I think so, but I think it is slowing down, but the rate is extremely extremely slow. For some reason I'm thinking there is a form of 'friction' in the sense of gravity waves of the earth and moons interacting, I'm not sure why this comes to mind, probably be wrong. The moon is moving away about 3?cm per year i think from the earth that is also slowing the earth down. There's bound to be something on the net about it.

Quote from: brainyape on August 30, 2009, 04:45 PM
Again, I suppose because there's no friction(with space) to slow it down. right?

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #13 - August 30, 2009, 11:34 PM

Quote from: stardust on August 30, 2009, 03:23 PM
there is no relative motion

you're right thanks, that why the leaves wont move if I am sat in a car on the motorway holding a plant pot

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #14 - August 31, 2009, 08:36 AM

But if you put the plant on top the car the leaves will move. The trees are on top the earth moving against the atmosphere. So one would expect some sought of movement?

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #15 - August 31, 2009, 08:46 AM

The Earth has an atmosphere because the gravitational pull of our planet trapped the various gases around it. So I think the atmosphere is moving with the planet at the same rate. Like the atmosphere is the chassis of the car with the plant inside.

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #16 - August 31, 2009, 09:07 AM

I didn't know the atmosphere moved. Thx.

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #17 - September 04, 2009, 08:00 AM

On a side note, there is some friction slowing down earth rotation: it's the friction between the outer solid layer of earth and the liquid layer (oceans) that tend to "stay where they are" (so to speak) due to the gravitational pull of the moon (tides).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_acceleration

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #18 - September 14, 2009, 08:05 AM

Quote from: IsLame on August 30, 2009, 02:29 PM
2 stupid questions that have been bugging me today:

1) Why does the earth rotate - there must be a some force for it to spin on its north-south pole axis which gives us night & day
2) If the earth spins at around 700 miles per hour (about 10 times the motorway speed limit), why are the leaves on trees sometimes perfectly still?

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #19 - July 07, 2011, 11:17 PM

Hi, as someone who grow up in a muslim environment, I must say this paradox has triggered my mind for a while and I found this explanation for it: first let us make a distinction between, Ramadhan, which is just a name of a month in the islamic calendar, and Fasting, which just happened to start at the sightseeing of the crescent at the beginning of this same month. the fasting, as mentioned in the Coran, has to start by the sightseeing of the Crescent by a person, it's then geographically dependent, which means that if someone can't see the Crescent, there's no fasting for him. the only possibility left for a person to fast for 4 months or more in a go is that he would have seen the crescent of Ramadhan the exact night before the never ending day, which by the way would happen once every ~30 years(1), but would still be impossible as the midnight sun is preceded with weeks of progressive twilight days that would have made seeing the crescent at that particular night impossible. so no fasting around the artic circles, and I would say even few degrees below. and about the astronaute question I think the answer is here too, an Astronaute will never see the Ramadhan Crescent and therefore would never have to fast, in addition to that if he is on a station he is considered traveler and therefore shouldn't fast either.

well that's just my theory to explain this paradox even if I am in a quite agnostic part of my life ....

thanks

(1) Islamic calendar being Lunar, a lunar year is ~10 shorter than a solar year and therefore islamic months move backward by ~10 days every year.
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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #20 - July 07, 2011, 11:19 PM

What about blind people, do they fast?

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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #21 - July 08, 2011, 02:41 AM

Why does the O.P not reverence the answers and quotes? Baseless claim?
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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #22 - July 08, 2011, 02:42 AM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on July 07, 2011, 11:19 PM
What about blind people, do they fast?

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Disabled people don't need to fast, right?
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Re: The Ramadan Pole Paradox
Reply #23 - July 08, 2011, 03:13 AM

i thought their rulings were based on 2:185

...whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein.... [2:185]

i.e. fasting is only applicable on those who actually witness such a month. You dont witness it, you dont fast etc.

?

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