The Deen of Allah

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- Imam_Ahmad
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The Deen of Allah
OP - August 31, 2009, 05:39 PM

I would first like to say Assalaimu alaikum to all of the people who may read this post, and reply. I'm not a former, or Ex Muslim and that may strike alot of you as weird. I'm the former Imam for an Islamic center in Texas, and recently moved to Tacoma, Wa. The reason I decided to join this particular forum is to find out the experiences you all have had being Muslim, the reason you chose to leave, and what your spiritual beliefs are now.
I can only imagine the frustration some of you may be having with religion in general. I myself prior to becoming Muslim had the same frustration with Christianity. I was born in a Protestant family, and converted in 1999. I'm not here to bring anyone back to Islam. That is not my intention, because only Allah can guide a person. I will be respectful of everyone's ideas, and current beliefs, and would like everyone to do the same. So far I've seen a great deal of respect from many of you here, despite your leaving Islam. So feel free to share what made you leave Islam, and the reaction you mave have recieved from family, and friends.
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #1 - August 31, 2009, 05:44 PM

Hi IA,

You can see my story here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBY5VbC6rvU

I also have a blog below that gives greater detail.

Are you having doubts about Islam?

What do you see as the problems/challenges facing Muslims?

Is Islam in crisis?

Will it survive?

Will religion die out - or will it be with us always?

Do you regard yourself as religious or spiritual or both?

Hassan
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #2 - August 31, 2009, 05:50 PM

I'm an Arab and I've been spoon feed Islam ever since I young age. I left Islam for many reasons and here are some.

-The opening of the Quran is a prayer and not a word of God. That means Muhammad wrote it.

-Numerous grammatical, historical and scientific errors in the Quran.

-Numerous perverted Translations of the Quran which means the translators want to hide something.

-Muhammad's biography and the deeds he committed.

-The fact that the Quran was revealed in a defective script.

-The weak Quranic challenge.

-All the logical fallacies in the argument of Muslims over the existance of God.

-The inconsistent Oral tradition otherwise known as Hadith.

-The fact that apostates are killed.

-Women are made inferior to men. Women are also our friends, sisters and mothers. How can I not take this personally?

-There is not a SINGLE verse or hadith that forbids child molestation. Rather Islam says it's ok. THE ONE THING that all cultures have in common: that it is wrong to take away the innocence of a child. Islam says it's Ok. Abu Bakr pleaded to Muhammad not to marry his daughter at such a young age. But Muhammad insisted.

-The fact that the Quran needs tafseers, Hadidths, grammatical gymnastics, the sira and the words of Scholars in order to be put INTO CONTEXT. That makes me think of it as a badly written book. I can read the Pagan Poems of Arabia and I would be able to understand the story, morals, context and words without any external help. Why cannot Allah be clear? Isn't the Quran "Kitabun Mubin"?

There are loads of others but those are the ones from the top of my head.
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #3 - August 31, 2009, 05:51 PM

and my reasons in "The reason I left Islam" by clicking the link in my signature below

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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #4 - August 31, 2009, 06:18 PM

Hello Ahmad. Welcome to our forum.

Even if we have a lot to disagree about, I hope you will enjoy your stay here and participate with interesting postings.

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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #5 - August 31, 2009, 07:38 PM

Quote from: Al Razi on August 31, 2009, 05:50 PM
I'm an Arab and I've been spoon feed Islam ever since I young age. I left Islam for many reasons and here are some.

-The opening of the Quran is a prayer and not a word of God. That means Muhammad wrote it.

-Numerous grammatical, historical and scientific errors in the Quran.

-Numerous perverted Translations of the Quran which means the translators want to hide something.

-Muhammad's biography and the deeds he committed.

-The fact that the Quran was revealed in a defective script.

-The weak Quranic challenge.

-All the logical fallacies in the argument of Muslims over the existance of God.

-The inconsistent Oral tradition otherwise known as Hadith.

-The fact that apostates are killed.

-Women are made inferior to men. Women are also our friends, sisters and mothers. How can I not take this personally?

-There is not a SINGLE verse or hadith that forbids child molestation. Rather Islam says it's ok. THE ONE THING that all cultures have in common: that it is wrong to take away the innocence of a child. Islam says it's Ok. Abu Bakr pleaded to Muhammad not to marry his daughter at such a young age. But Muhammad insisted.

-The fact that the Quran needs tafseers, Hadidths, grammatical gymnastics, the sira and the words of Scholars in order to be put INTO CONTEXT. That makes me think of it as a badly written book. I can read the Pagan Poems of Arabia and I would be able to understand the story, morals, context and words without any external help. Why cannot Allah be clear? Isn't the Quran "Kitabun Mubin"?

There are loads of others but those are the ones from the top of my head.

Same as Al-Razi....

...
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #6 - August 31, 2009, 07:43 PM

Quote from: Al Razi on August 31, 2009, 05:50 PM
I'm an Arab and I've been spoon feed Islam ever since I young age. I left Islam for many reasons and here are some.

-The opening of the Quran is a prayer and not a word of God. That means Muhammad wrote it.

-Numerous grammatical, historical and scientific errors in the Quran.

-Numerous perverted Translations of the Quran which means the translators want to hide something.

-Muhammad's biography and the deeds he committed.

-The fact that the Quran was revealed in a defective script.

-The weak Quranic challenge.

-All the logical fallacies in the argument of Muslims over the existance of God.

-The inconsistent Oral tradition otherwise known as Hadith.

-The fact that apostates are killed.

-Women are made inferior to men. Women are also our friends, sisters and mothers. How can I not take this personally?

-There is not a SINGLE verse or hadith that forbids child molestation. Rather Islam says it's ok. THE ONE THING that all cultures have in common: that it is wrong to take away the innocence of a child. Islam says it's Ok. Abu Bakr pleaded to Muhammad not to marry his daughter at such a young age. But Muhammad insisted.

-The fact that the Quran needs tafseers, Hadidths, grammatical gymnastics, the sira and the words of Scholars in order to be put INTO CONTEXT. That makes me think of it as a badly written book. I can read the Pagan Poems of Arabia and I would be able to understand the story, morals, context and words without any external help. Why cannot Allah be clear? Isn't the Quran "Kitabun Mubin"?

There are loads of others but those are the ones from the top of my head.

Pretty much the same as above except that I'm ethnically Pakistani. My bio is in the bio section called my 20 year journey.
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #7 - August 31, 2009, 08:19 PM

walikom el salam imam_ahmad and welcome

my reasons are :
Verse 4 34
verse 4 5
verse 43 18
verse 3 28
verse 4 128
verse 2 226
verse 9 60
verse 65 4 Marrying under_aged girls.
verse 59 9
verse 22 52 shytan can affect muhammed.
milk al yameen, marrying safeya after killing her family,hating disbelievers for no apparent reason,
eternity in hell !

أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأن محمدآ عبده ورسوله
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #8 - August 31, 2009, 10:24 PM

Welcome to the boards. Perhaps at some time I will discuss in greater details my issues with the deen, but the primary reason I left is that there is no evidence that any god at all exists, let alone the god of Islam. Islam conveniently explains this away by saying that he chooses not to communicate with his creation, and that after Mo, there will be no further heavenly communications even with special people.

I guess I have a question for you and that is, what do you expect out of coming here? Are you having doubts about your religion? Or do you wish to be a pioneer amongst Muslims and wish to explore apostasy, why people are leaving Islam and how Muslims can better change their attitudes? Perhaps you are of those who wish to jettison Islamic teachings that apostates should be killed? I'm just curious. Most Muslim leaders pretend like we don't exist at all.

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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #9 - August 31, 2009, 10:31 PM

Quote
Most Muslim leaders pretend like we don't exist at all.

Or by erecting a strawman by saying that we had a poor understanding of Islam in the first place.
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #10 - August 31, 2009, 10:37 PM

i was reading replies to some article criticizing islam ,and there was some guy who kept yelling , THERE is NO such Thing as Atheism!! its either u are muslim , or pagan! u must be a zionist!!! lol

i once thought the same , every thing bad is made by jews and enemies of islam! untill one day i found myself talking like them , and i am sure as hell i was never jew , christian or zionist!!

أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأن محمدآ عبده ورسوله
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #11 - September 01, 2009, 03:36 AM

Welcome Ahmad, I am not an ex-muslim, but a secular Catholic Christian born in egypt. I prefer to deal with islam for the time being since I have been blessed (cursed) with the ability to see it and understand it for what it is.

As an Arab I apologize to you for offering you this gift of Islam. As a half Palestinian from Nazareth, i also apologize for the gift of Christianity which seems did not work so well for you either. Once islam is destroyed or reformed, whichever comes first, we can get back to try to destroy or reform the trinity that possibly confused the crap out of you, as it should.

However just because the Trinity confused you, and Christianity had a lot of illogical stuff, it should not have meant you run down the same broken line looking for Truth. Here you have islam. A logical religion. One of the most logical religions out there. You do not believe, we make you. You leave us, we kill you. To marry into us you have to convert. Your women are chattel, as it makes it easier to get them to reproduce and increase the numbers. It does not get more logical then that Ahmad. As logical as the guy who cheats in poker while the other innocents are just playing the game with morals and integrity.

But this is where the logical part of islam ends. When the immoral cheater gets caught, all his/her winnings forfeit.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #12 - September 01, 2009, 07:08 AM

Thank you. Not understanding the Trinity wasn't the reason I left Christianity. I left Christianity because I understood it in a different way than you. I was exposed to Islam by a former Nation of Islam member who had left the Nation, and practice Orthodox Islam for 20 years after that. I agree it is a logical religion. Submitting our will to One God, who alone is to be our guide in our everyday lives. The only One we can truly call upon for help when we come upon trials that seem too big for us to handle on our own. As a Muslim I don't view women as chattel, or as merely tools for reproduction. I know there are Muslims out there do have this view, and say it is Islamic, and may even be able to back it up with Qur'an, and Sunnah. Does Islam need reform... Good question... My answer is yes. Muslims need to seriously rethink the way they are interpreting the Qur'an, and Sunnah. When we say that the Prophet was a merciful person, and showed mercy even to his enemies, how do explain killing Apostates, simply for exercising freedom to follow their own spiritual beliefs. Or Stoning Adulterers, and Adulteresses, when the Qur'an doesn't give such a punishment. Granted the Sunnah does but aren't we to question Hadith that contradict Quran?
I enjoyed reading your last post.. It was refreshing to read someone who could make an argument without being rude or using foul language. I see that alot in this forum, which is why I enjoy coming here.
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #13 - September 01, 2009, 07:11 AM

Quote from: Prosaic on August 31, 2009, 10:37 PM
i was never jew , christian or zionist!!

Oh don't worry - according to some Muslims - you are now either a Jew, Christian or a Zionist!
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #14 - September 01, 2009, 07:21 AM

Imam_Ahmad - I would be interested in your views about some of the ex-Muslim stories you have read here and why you think we left Islam?

Would you agree that Islam is beginning to be questioned much more than it used to be - by Muslims themselves?

Do you feel ex-Muslims are a threat?

Are you in favour of some sort of censorship or even punishment for ex-Muslims?
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #15 - September 01, 2009, 07:23 AM

Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on September 01, 2009, 07:08 AM
Does Islam need reform... Good question... My answer is yes. Muslims need to seriously rethink the way they are interpreting the Qur'an, and Sunnah. When we say that the Prophet was a merciful person, and showed mercy even to his enemies, how do explain killing Apostates, simply for exercising freedom to follow their own spiritual beliefs. Or Stoning Adulterers, and Adulteresses, when the Qur'an doesn't give such a punishment. Granted the Sunnah does but aren't we to question Hadith that contradict Quran?

Ahmad, it's good that you acknowledge the fact that there needs to be reform in Islam. Unfortunately you might have a minority opinion and the vast majority of orthodox (sunni and shia) would disagree with you, and might even label you as a heretic. can you tell me briefly what points you might abbrogate if you could and why? Thanks.
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #16 - September 01, 2009, 07:28 AM

Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on September 01, 2009, 07:08 AM
Does Islam need reform... Good question... My answer is yes. Muslims need to seriously rethink the way they are interpreting the Qur'an, and Sunnah. When we say that the Prophet was a merciful person, and showed mercy even to his enemies, how do explain killing Apostates, simply for exercising freedom to follow their own spiritual beliefs. Or Stoning Adulterers, and Adulteresses, when the Qur'an doesn't give such a punishment. Granted the Sunnah does but aren't we to question Hadith that contradict Quran?

I am quite sure many Muslims agree with you. But as you must know, being an Imam of a Mosque yourself - it is much harder for Muslims scholars to get around the traditional views without opening the floodgates.

After if we ignore some Sunnas - then why stop there? And if some of what the prophet was inspired to do is now out of date - couldn't that also be applied to the Qur'an too? Hitting wives for example? And then why stop there...

Do you see where I'm going with this?
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #17 - September 01, 2009, 07:46 AM

I would also be interested in knowing how far you would take this. I mean, there is the one side who can say 'This clearly contradicts the Quran' and they toss that, but what if the Quran doesn't mention anything about it? Say, for example, tattooing, wearing wigs or hair extensions, men having gold rings, and things like that? What about praying five times a day vs. three times?

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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #18 - September 01, 2009, 04:39 PM

Hello Ahmad,
Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on September 01, 2009, 07:08 AM
I was exposed to Islam by a former Nation of Islam member who had left the Nation,

The nation. I never can wrap my head around why many Blacks in America embraced the religion/culture that initiated the largest slave operation in history against them. I am hoping someone knowledgeable on the subject can explain this for me One day. Last time someone tried to explain it to me, they just showed me 4 verses that they liked and it confused me a bit more on the subject.
Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on September 01, 2009, 07:08 AM
I agree it is a logical religion.

We both agree
Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on September 01, 2009, 07:08 AM
As a Muslim I don't view women as chattel, or as merely tools for reproduction. I know there are Muslims out there do have this view, and say it is Islamic, and may even be able to back it up with Qur'an, and Sunnah.

On that we also agree.
Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on September 01, 2009, 07:08 AM
Does Islam need reform... Good question... My answer is yes. Muslims need to seriously rethink the way they are interpreting the Qur'an, and Sunnah.

Again, agree.
Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on September 01, 2009, 07:08 AM
When we say that the Prophet was a merciful person, and showed mercy even to his enemies, how do explain killing Apostates, simply for exercising freedom to follow their own spiritual beliefs.

Because Muhammad killed several of his prisoners after he assaulted the trade caravan at Badr. They were guilty of refusing his message earlier and ridiculing him as they were also poets. After taking over Mecca, he had the power over them yet chose to make a list of 10 people to be killed "Even if hiding behind the curtain of the kaaba". In the list was a poet and his Two female dancers. As well as stonings. We can try to remove all those stories from the hadith. I agree with that. This will either cause the reform of islam or destruction, either is acceptable of course.
Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on September 01, 2009, 07:08 AM
Or Stoning Adulterers, and Adulteresses, when the Qur'an doesn't give such a punishment. Granted the Sunnah does but aren't we to question Hadith that contradict Quran?

Agree. However then you enter the realm of "koran only". It seems as if, the hadith writers as well as the koran writers, were happier to record the bad macho stuff. As if, being macho was a virtue to them. So we have a 'macho' hadith. It actually lacks good deeds and mercy displayed by Muhammad. So it is a bit harder to 'erase' and 'ignore' the bad stuff and only concentrate on the good stuff. The source material is a bit too broken. What will you do, when the amount ignored and erased is just too much.
Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on September 01, 2009, 07:08 AM
I enjoyed reading your last post.. It was refreshing to read someone who could make an argument without being rude or using foul language.

And it was refreshing hearing about islam from a western mind.
Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on September 01, 2009, 07:08 AM
I see that alot in this forum, which is why I enjoy coming here.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #19 - September 01, 2009, 05:05 PM

Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on September 01, 2009, 07:08 AM
Muslims need to seriously rethink the way they are interpreting the Qur'an, and Sunnah. When we say that the Prophet was a merciful person, and showed mercy even to his enemies, how do explain killing Apostates, simply for exercising freedom to follow their own spiritual beliefs. Or Stoning Adulterers, and Adulteresses, when the Qur'an doesn't give such a punishment. Granted the Sunnah does but aren't we to question Hadith that contradict Quran?

To make the changes that you seem to want to make you would have to ignore a huge number of hadiths and Quranic verses. Why not just drop religion altogether rather cherry-pick what you like and don't like?

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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #20 - September 01, 2009, 06:34 PM

Quote from: Baal on September 01, 2009, 04:39 PM
Hello Ahmad, The nation. I never can wrap my head around why many Blacks in America embraced the religion/culture that initiated the largest slave operation in history against them. I am hoping someone knowledgeable on the subject can explain this for me One day.

Because they're not really Muslims, and they don't practise or believe in Islam like the ex-Muslims here - Sunni and Shiah - did. It's black nationalism and black empowerment with some of the 'Oriental mysticism' that was so popular in that time thrown in, most likely learned from the Ahmediyat missionaries that were making the rounds in some black communities in the US in the early 20th century.

If you think about Islam in America, it was near impossible for a regular person to access more than a very basic history of Islam 70 years ago, even 30 years ago. Books that cover sub-topics like those that have come out about Islam and slavery, weren't available then, so how would your average person have known this? Not only that but in the early 20th century, there were still older black folks who remembered remnants of Islam that their parents, grandparents, and other elders managed to keep with them through slavery and enforced Christianity.

It's interesting to me that after a big peak in the 70s and another smaller one in the 90s you see far fewer black folks converting to Islam these days... the days of the internet, the days when information is available to anyone who can go to the library and get some computer time.

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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #21 - September 02, 2009, 01:05 AM

Quote
I'm not here to bring anyone back to Islam. That is not my intention, because only Allah can guide a person.

That is something I find very interesting....because then you would also need to accept that everyone here is here because allah willed them to. Every non muslims is a non muslim because allah willed them to be. This site exists because allah wills it to. Every person lead astray by iblis is lead astray because allah willed it to be so.....This makes me think allah is not real.....but really it is allah's fault.
To make matters worst, then allah will punish us all for doing as his will be done.

A lot of muslims I know say "this life is a test"...well, what kind of teacher guides some of the students but doesnt guide others? But wait...allah also leads astray those he wills. So not only dont you get guided....You get lead astray...Now imagine the teacher gives some students the answers, doesnt teach anything to several of the students, and gives the wrong answers to the rest of them......See the problem, for this to work, the test would not be fair...so then allah would be unfair.....however allah is perfect...

In the end, allah collapses into a black hole of contradictions, illogical reason, and absurdities, because the writers did not think this all though.

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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #22 - September 02, 2009, 07:01 AM

Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on August 31, 2009, 05:39 PM
I would first like to say Assalaimu alaikum to all of the people who may read this post, and reply.......

....I'm not here to bring anyone back to Islam.That is not my intention, because only Allah can guide a person. I will be respectful of everyone's ideas, and current beliefs, and would like everyone to do the same. So far I've seen a great deal of respect from many of you here, despite your leaving Islam. So feel free to share what made you leave Islam, and the reaction you mave have recieved from family, and friends.

Wa Alaikum as-Salam .... I'm a Muslim.

Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #23 - September 02, 2009, 07:18 AM

Hmmm... interesting indeed. That is the same thing Iblis said to Allah in the Qur'an when Iblis refused to bow down after Allah created Adam, that it was Allah's fault he went astray rather than his own. We as Human beings are endowed with free will, we choose to follow Allah, or to not follow Allah. Those who believe in Allah, and His Messenger Rasulullah Sallallahu alahi wa sallam with sincere devotion, and don't doubt the words of the Qur'an, or the Sunnah will continue to be guided by Allah. Those who chose to not follow the guidance given in the Qur'an, and Sunnah aren't at a loss just yet. It's only if they die rejecting the Allah, and His Messenger will be amongst the people who will have their final place in the Hell fire.
Allah doesn't lead people astray... people allow themselves to be lead astray. A drug addict isn't forced to use drugs, he uses them because he chooses the feeling of being doped up rather than the feeling of being sober. No matter what a person may do or say you can't make them believe in God, or any deity for that matter. If their hearts are set in not believing then that is exactly what they are going to. Granted God loves His creation, but in His wisdom He will not force people to love, and worship Him. So when a person is guided by Allah they freely choose to love God and follow him, as well has Messenger. When a person chooses not to follow God, and even goes so far as to even deny God's existence. Then that person as choosen to seperate himself from God. So of course there is no guidance for the person who chooses not to follow God.
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #24 - September 02, 2009, 07:19 AM

Quote from: S.A.M on September 02, 2009, 07:01 AM
Wa Alaikum as-Salam .... I'm a Muslim.

Not according to most muslims, you would be a heretic given that you believe as humans that we are God

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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #25 - September 02, 2009, 07:29 AM

Welcome to the forum Imam_Ahmad.

I left Islam because Allah willed that I should read the scriptures. And in so doing I found far too many illogical assertions, intolerant guidance, contradictions, unscientific claims, mysogystic teachings and absurdities for Islam to claim it originates from a perfect God.

I have documented all that bothered me with Islam here https://sites.google.com/site/islamicscripturesunveiled/.

Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #26 - September 02, 2009, 07:35 AM

Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on September 02, 2009, 07:18 AM
Hmmm... interesting indeed. That is the same thing Iblis said to Allah in the Qur'an when Iblis refused to bow down after Allah created Adam, that it was Allah's fault he went astray rather than his own. We as Human beings are endowed with free will, we choose to follow Allah, or to not follow Allah. Those who believe in Allah, and His Messenger Rasulullah Sallallahu alahi wa sallam with sincere devotion, and don't doubt the words of the Qur'an, or the Sunnah will continue to be guided by Allah. Those who chose to not follow the guidance given in the Qur'an, and Sunnah aren't at a loss just yet. It's only if they die rejecting the Allah, and His Messenger will be amongst the people who will have their final place in the Hell fire.
Allah doesn't lead people astray... people allow themselves to be lead astray. A drug addict isn't forced to use drugs, he uses them because he chooses the feeling of being doped up rather than the feeling of being sober. No matter what a person may do or say you can't make them believe in God, or any deity for that matter. If their hearts are set in not believing then that is exactly what they are going to. Granted God loves His creation, but in His wisdom He will not force people to love, and worship Him. So when a person is guided by Allah they freely choose to love God and follow him, as well has Messenger. When a person chooses not to follow God, and even goes so far as to even deny God's existence. Then that person as choosen to seperate himself from God. So of course there is no guidance for the person who chooses not to follow God.

I want to reply to this but gotta go to work - so I will when I get back - but in the meanwhile please take a look at this as it deals with the nonsense that people "choose" to disbelieve/deny something know is the "truth" - and that they "deserve" eternal torture!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey5Jwz2NPEs
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #27 - September 02, 2009, 07:44 AM

Quote
When a person chooses not to follow God, and even goes so far as to even deny God's existence. Then that person as choosen to seperate himself from God. So of course there is no guidance for the person who chooses not to follow God.

Hello Imam Ahmed.

If I asked you, purely as a thought exercise, to choose to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, would you able to do it?

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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #28 - September 02, 2009, 07:44 AM

Quote from: IsLame on September 02, 2009, 07:19 AM
Not according to most muslims, you would be a heretic given that you believe as humans that we are God

Individual...... I study Sifat 20 as basic knowlegde, 'He who knows himself knows Allah.

Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
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Re: The Deen of Allah
Reply #29 - September 02, 2009, 08:20 AM

Quote from: Imam_Ahmad on September 02, 2009, 07:18 AM
Granted God loves His creation, ...

Hi Imam Ahmed.
God certainly shows this "love" of his in a very disturbing way. For example by torturing somebody in hell for all eternity. This is not just evil, it is just about the evilest deed ever, and no human could be as evil as Abrahamic god apparently is. And that is my biggest issue with religion. It is inherently immoral. Abrahamic god, according to the scripture is a psychopathic tyrant. Even if it existed I could never respect such a god let alone worship him/her/it, because that would be immoral and a betrayal of my humanity. Thank god (pun intended) that he is a human construct.
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