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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Deen of Allah

 (Read 17826 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #60 - September 03, 2009, 05:54 AM

    The Qu'ran only values not taking innocent Muslim lives. The killing of infidels are recommended all through the Qu'ran. Aren't non-Muslim lives innocent?


    And here a.ghazali proceeds to quote many hadiths showing Muhammad was strong on enjoining stoning, and the ayat about killing and OMG my heart just burst because it was so awesome.   mysmilie_977   far away hug

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #61 - September 03, 2009, 06:38 AM

    No Iblis was a Jinn. Jinn were created from what the Qur'an describes as smokeless fire.


    So Imam_Ahmad, why should God torture people - even for a life-time* - for not believing?

    (btw Ahqaaba means more than a life-time - it means ages - and it does not mean Hell is limited in time, particularly since all the other verses make it abundantly clear Hell is for ever. But it's OK, I understand why you want to believe it can't be forever - I wanted to believe that to, but eventually I had to face facts.)
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #62 - September 03, 2009, 06:07 PM

    No Iblis was a Jinn. Jinn were created from what the Qur'an describes as smokeless fire.


    I love this stuff.

    Fire is the rapid oxidation of a combustible material releasing heat, light, and smoke. The flame part is just a mixture of reacting gases and solids emitting visible and infrared light.

    By definition fire must burn something, else it is not fire. It makes me think that they just didnt really know what fire was, per se. I could imagine how it went

    Asker guy: Muhammed, what are jinn made of?
    Muhammed (thinking): Hummmm, what would sound cool?
    Muhammed: Fire! They are made from Smokeless fire!
    Asker: WOW


    It sounds all badass and stuff, but on closer scrutiny doesnt really jive.


    How can allah punish jinn in hellfire later....if they are made of fire? How come Jinn dont give off heat or light that we can detect? If they dont give off infrared light and heat how can it be "fire"?

    Ok, check this out.
    A flame is just light
    Angles are made of light
    Therefor jinns = angles

    of course non of this really makes sense, unless you dont know what light is (light is just radiation of a wavelength that is visible to the human eye). 

    I could do this all day

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #63 - September 03, 2009, 06:49 PM

    Yes, I was thinking yesterday too.  Its almost the undoing of Islam.  These tales all seem to be told to sound as grandiose, as interesting, as imaginative and as scary as they could be. 

    A bit like a liar, who's audience is captured but want something more.  So his tales stretch further & further, the gullible audience stays capitivated but those that began questioning have long since got up and walked away.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #64 - September 03, 2009, 08:16 PM

    Yes, I was thinking yesterday too.  Its almost the undoing of Islam.  These tales all seem to be told to sound as grandiose, as interesting, as imaginative and as scary as they could be. 

    A bit like a liar, who's audience is captured but want something more.  So his tales stretch further & further, the gullible audience stays capitivated but those that began questioning have long since got up and walked away.


    They have their excuses mate. All the descriptions they give are best estimates for an unseen realm.
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #65 - September 03, 2009, 08:37 PM

    OK close your eyes and imagine you are in 7th century PRE-ISLAMIC Arabia, standing in the busy bustling market of Mecca during the annual pilgrimage. As always there are many poets, Kahins (seers), and sages wowing their audiences with tall tales and scary stories and of course prophesies of the end of time....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdLLY4gWK48
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #66 - September 03, 2009, 08:54 PM

    looks like it was a fun time to be around..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #67 - September 03, 2009, 09:19 PM

    imam_ahmed

    Without participating, I had been tracking this discussion with a lot of interest. I am sorry to say that you avoided to discuss most of the questions raised by hassan, IsLame and others. You have demonstrated that you have a tunnel vision, just like most other Muslims.

    I would give you credit for being nice and polite. But you could not give any strong argument. This has only affirmed my apostasy.

    Regards
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #68 - September 03, 2009, 09:52 PM

    What is meant by a "logical religion"? If it were logical would it be religion anymore?

    How could a single God listen to the prayers of a billion people concurrently?


    "God is a geometer" - Plato

    "God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #69 - September 03, 2009, 09:58 PM

    Welcome Ahmad, I am not an ex-muslim, but a secular Catholic Christian born in egypt.


    Hi Baal! I also have been a Catholic from the land of the cow-worshippers.


    "God is a geometer" - Plato

    "God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #70 - September 04, 2009, 01:58 AM

    imam_ahmed

    Without participating, I had been tracking this discussion with a lot of interest. I am sorry to say that you avoided to discuss most of the questions raised by hassan, IsLame and others. You have demonstrated that you have a tunnel vision, just like most other Muslims.

    I would give you credit for being nice and polite. But you could not give any strong argument. This has only affirmed my apostasy.


    +1

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #71 - September 04, 2009, 08:10 AM

    imam_ahmed

    Without participating, I had been tracking this discussion with a lot of interest. I am sorry to say that you avoided to discuss most of the questions raised by hassan, IsLame and others. You have demonstrated that you have a tunnel vision, just like most other Muslims.

    I would give you credit for being nice and polite. But you could not give any strong argument. This has only affirmed my apostasy.

    Regards


    Imam_Ahmed. Do you ever have any doubts about Islam, religion or even God? You can be frank on this site, all of ex-muslims have been through doubt here. Some of us have dealt with it straight away while others like myself took a long time to reach the conclusions we have. In either case please tell us what doubts you have had, and if you have had no doubts why do you think you have not had any doubts?
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #72 - September 08, 2009, 07:34 AM

    Doubts.... everyone doubts, and like you said everyone deals with doubts in different ways. I've had doubts about Christianity and Islam, about God, and a Heaven, and Hell. However I'm what my Mom would call a 'prayer warrior'. I lay all my doubts, my worries, and fears in God's hands. I think what kept me believing in God in general is my Mom, and after converting to Islam she's helped me understand that no matter how you pray, fast, or worship God, whether it's with Music, or bowing down in sujood. As long as you give God the praise He's worthy of He'll never leave you. I guess that's why I think differently than alot of other Muslims.
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #73 - September 08, 2009, 07:43 AM

    You have a healthy way of looking at religion - I wish followers were more like you
    Quote
    long as you give God the praise He's worthy of He'll never leave you.

    on a more trivial note have you seen kissing hanks ass?


    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #74 - September 08, 2009, 11:01 AM

    As long as you give God the praise He's worthy of He'll never leave you. I guess that's why I think differently than alot of other Muslims.


    Imam_Ahmad, I have asked you several questions but you have ignored them all. If I may I would like to ask you about your latest post.

    1. Why does God want us to praise him?

    2. Does: making the universe and man and providing some of us with our needs and while others starve - and allowing some of us to live happily and others to live with unbearable tragedy - others to live long and others to die young - others pain free and others living in agony  - all for about 70 years. Then sending half of these people to eternal bliss and half to eternal torture in Hell on the basis of whether they guessed the right religion from the many doubtful and very debateable religions - all of which he knew would happen from the start. deserve praise?


  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #75 - September 08, 2009, 05:04 PM

    Doubts.... everyone doubts, and like you said everyone deals with doubts in different ways. I've had doubts about Christianity and Islam, about God, and a Heaven, and Hell. However I'm what my Mom would call a 'prayer warrior'. I lay all my doubts, my worries, and fears in God's hands. I think what kept me believing in God in general is my Mom, and after converting to Islam she's helped me understand that no matter how you pray, fast, or worship God, whether it's with Music, or bowing down in sujood. As long as you give God the praise He's worthy of He'll never leave you. I guess that's why I think differently than alot of other Muslims.


    Imam_Ahmed

    Just like typical Muslims, you lack listening skills. I am sorry to say that but, as Hassan said, You have not answered a single question.

    You say, but you have not demonstrated that you think any differently than other Muslims.

    Hasan has asked you very simple question, we look forward to a reply.

    Cheers
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #76 - September 08, 2009, 05:16 PM

    Imam_Ahmad, I have asked you several questions but you have ignored them all. If I may I would like to ask you about your latest post.

    1. Why does God want us to praise him?

    2. Does: making the universe and man and providing some of us with our needs and while others starve - and allowing some of us to live happily and others to live with unbearable tragedy - others to live long and others to die young - others pain free and others living in agony  - all for about 70 years. Then sending half of these people to eternal bliss and half to eternal torture in Hell on the basis of whether they guessed the right religion from the many doubtful and very debateable religions - all of which he knew would happen from the start. deserve praise?


    +1

    Imam_Ahmad, please address Hassan's question. We're very curious as to your take on this issue.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #77 - September 08, 2009, 05:34 PM

    +1

    Imam_Ahmad, please address Hassan's question. We're very curious as to your take on this issue.


    There is a load of stuff you have missed out Imam_Ahmed. We are curious to know your opinion.

    Thanks
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #78 - September 08, 2009, 08:08 PM

    I have also asked questions that haven't been answered.  You came here for dialog, let us have it. 

    My most important question, I think, is why are you here?  Are you here to learn how to talk to Muslims who come to you as an imam with doubts? Are you hear to learn why people would quit Islam? Are you here to reach out and rise above the rhetoric of violence and hate directed at people like us?  Are you here to present an alternative view of core Islamic issues and maybe call some of us back to Islam with them? Why are you here, what do you hope to get out of it? 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #79 - September 08, 2009, 08:14 PM

    Please allow me to mirror Fading's questions - Imam_Ahmad:

    1. Why are you here?

    2. Are you here to learn how to talk to Muslims who come to you as an imam with doubts?

    3. Are you hear to learn why people would quit Islam?

    4. Are you here to reach out and rise above the rhetoric of violence and hate directed at people like us, Ex-Muslims?

    5. Are you here to present an alternative view of core Islamic issues and maybe call some of us back to Islam with them?

    6. What do you hope to get out of visiting this forum?  
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #80 - September 08, 2009, 10:30 PM

    Well the reason why I am here? I am here because as an Imam I  deal with people on a daily basis, even ex Muslims sometimes. I see how Muslims treat people who were once part of our community, but for whatever reason left it, and I really don't like the way Muslims treat not only non Muslims, but apostates. It's one thing to disagree with a person, quite another to want to spill their blood for something that doesn't warrant it. I would like, perhaps with some of your help form an alternative view, and interpretation of Islam. All of us can agree that the current practice of Islam in most Muslim countries is lacking in what we see in Christianity, and other religions. Such as brotherly love, respect of not only fellow believers, but non believers, and a gentle, loving way of calling them to the faith. I have nothing against anyone personally. We are all human beings, we all relate to the world around us in different ways, and rationalize things differently.
    What I hope to get out of this forum is pretty much get your opinions, and ideas on what is wrong with Islam as it is practiced today. I do love my faith, and I have alot of wonderful, kind people in my congregation, but I know that in the countries where some of you originate from, non Muslims, and those who have left Islam are treated like Animals, and worse. My ex wife is from Nigeria, and she's told me of several stories about what goes on between Muslims, and Christians there.
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #81 - September 08, 2009, 10:44 PM

    You seem like a nice guy. Its good to have a Muslim here who is respectful Smiley

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #82 - September 08, 2009, 10:53 PM

    All of us can agree that the current practice of Islam in most Muslim countries is lacking in what we see in Christianity, and other religions. Such as brotherly love, respect of not only fellow believers, but non believers, and a gentle, loving way of calling them to the faith.

    To give you a better idea of where I am coming from, I dont put Christianity, Buddhism etc on a pedestal either - most of us believe religion was man-made.  

    We are prepared to believe in a God, but he chose to deny us 1 iota of evidence?  We suspect that is not because of any other reason than the fact he doesnt exist.  

    As you know it is entirely possible for humans to fabricate religions, take a look at all the historical and 'past expiry date' religions.  We are not arrogant enough to believe Islam is any different just because our its our ancestral religion, and nor has it proved itself to be.

    In any case you seem like a nice guy, with genuine motives.  Good luck to you  Afro

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #83 - September 09, 2009, 12:21 AM

    Thanks for the response. You may be very unique in the Muslim community for this.  My experience thus far has been that the imams, mullahs, shaykhs, etc. do not want to even acknowledge our existence except to talk about what Shariah says and how awful we are as human beings.

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #84 - September 09, 2009, 07:15 AM

    To give you a better idea of where I am coming from, I dont put Christianity, Buddhism etc on a pedestal either - most of us believe religion was man-made.  

    We are prepared to believe in a God, but he chose to deny us 1 iota of evidence?  We suspect that is not because of any other reason than the fact he doesnt exist.  

    As you know it is entirely possible for humans to fabricate religions, take a look at all the historical and 'past expiry date' religions.  We are not arrogant enough to believe Islam is any different just because our its our ancestral religion, and nor has it proved itself to be.

    In any case you seem like a nice guy, with genuine motives.  Good luck to you  Afro


    agree

    ...
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #85 - September 09, 2009, 07:42 AM

    Imam_Ahmed

    Just like typical Muslims, you lack listening skills. I am sorry to say that but, as Hassan said, You have not answered a single question.

    You say, but you have not demonstrated that you think any differently than other Muslims.

    Hasan has asked you very simple question, we look forward to a reply.

    Cheers




    I dunno why ypou all jump on Muslims when they visit this site, no wonder they never stick aound. To answer any of your questions, just put yourself back into your muslim days and give the amswer you would have given. Or are you expecting something different now?

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #86 - September 09, 2009, 08:17 AM

    Hay, He's no Kope... and that's a compliment.

    Personally, I dont bother debating the philosophy stuff so much..tends not to go anywhere, I'm mostly thrown off by stuff like"Jinn are made of smokeless fire". It just sounds so made up, when you think about it. Reminds me so much of the greek ideas that fire was an element. But its not...its a chemical reaction, so its kind of like saying  Demons are made of liquidless boiling.

    Or things like muhammed split the moon in half... I mean, a side from what that would do on earth, I find it hard to believe that the Greeks, Romans, and Persians didnt notice.......

    stuff like that

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #87 - September 09, 2009, 08:24 AM


    I dunno why ypou all jump on Muslims when they visit this site, no wonder they never stick aound. To answer any of your questions, just put yourself back into your muslim days and give the amswer you would have given. Or are you expecting something different now?


    My thoughts too, very much. I think he needs help with developing a progressive Islamic theology.


    "God is a geometer" - Plato

    "God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #88 - September 09, 2009, 08:38 AM

    To give you a better idea of where I am coming from, I dont put Christianity, Buddhism etc on a pedestal either - most of us believe religion was man-made. 

    We are prepared to believe in a God, but he chose to deny us 1 iota of evidence?  We suspect that is not because of any other reason than the fact he doesnt exist. 

    As you know it is entirely possible for humans to fabricate religions, take a look at all the historical and 'past expiry date' religions.  We are not arrogant enough to believe Islam is any different just because our its our ancestral religion, and nor has it proved itself to be.

    In any case you seem like a nice guy, with genuine motives.  Good luck to you  Afro


    +1

    I have had a mixed response from family and friends. My family has taken it with a pinch of salt, and might be thinking that I'm going through some sort of phase. If they think that then so be it. My uncle has been an atheist for more than two decades and the family are still deluded into thinking he's going through a phase!

    My friend's have had a slightly different reaction to my family. They have acknowledged that i've apostated and have taken it seriously. They have said that they don't want to engage in a debate, but I know they will have a go at some point. They are more concerned with the aftermath of it all and what it means in terms of my wife and kids, halal and haram etc etc.....

    They understood that my worldview is different to theirs. But they have said at the same time that my wife is still muslim, therefore your marriage is null and void. As far as i'm concerned that comment falls on deaf ears. It's the same as saying "accept the blood of christ". They also asked me about halal and haram. I said that as far as i'm concerned, those injunctions don't hold for me, and as far as my marriage is concerned it's nobody else's business but mine.

    What I don't get and what I find hypocritical about the whole thing, is that in certain communities, drug dealers, pimps and outright criminals who poison their kids minds are tollerated. These guys are fine because they turn up to jumma and give donations with their hard earned "haram" earnings. They are okay because they still believe in Allah and his messenger!

    Yet someone like me who is a law abiding citizen and earns "halal" money, has to be careful and sometimes not dare to express his views. All ex-muslims ask, is to be left alone and not have to pretend, grin or nod our head at every hadith that is quoted to us. I find the behaviour of the muslim a weakness and a sign of insecurity when they feel that they have to resort to violent behaviour. Unless of course it's santioned by Allah and his messenger?

    My non-muslim friends have been far more accomodating and have in fact been supportive, in that they congratulated me on being brave enough to drop islam and see it for what it is. Some of them have been indifferent and treat me in the same way as they did when I was a muslim. I suspect this is because they see religion as something private and personal and their anscestors have already been through some of the horrors five hundred years ago, with things like heresy hunts, witch burning and reformation. Islam still has that hurdle to jump.


    +1
    My thoughts too, very much. I think he needs help with developing a progressive Islamic theology.



  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #89 - September 09, 2009, 08:45 AM

    Well the reason why I am here? I am here because as an Imam I  deal with people on a daily basis, even ex Muslims sometimes. I see how Muslims treat people who were once part of our community, but for whatever reason left it, and I really don't like the way Muslims treat not only non Muslims, but apostates. It's one thing to disagree with a person, quite another to want to spill their blood for something that doesn't warrant it. I would like, perhaps with some of your help form an alternative view, and interpretation of Islam. All of us can agree that the current practice of Islam in most Muslim countries is lacking in what we see in Christianity, and other religions. Such as brotherly love, respect of not only fellow believers, but non believers, and a gentle, loving way of calling them to the faith. I have nothing against anyone personally. We are all human beings, we all relate to the world around us in different ways, and rationalize things differently.
    What I hope to get out of this forum is pretty much get your opinions, and ideas on what is wrong with Islam as it is practiced today. I do love my faith, and I have alot of wonderful, kind people in my congregation, but I know that in the countries where some of you originate from, non Muslims, and those who have left Islam are treated like Animals, and worse. My ex wife is from Nigeria, and she's told me of several stories about what goes on between Muslims, and Christians there.


    Thank you Imam_Ahmad Smiley I think you have noble objectives and hope we can be of help  Afro

    (I will add some more coherent thoughts to the issues you raise when I get home tonight - am at work right now.)

    Aside from that I would still be interested if you have time to answer my last two questions to you Wink
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