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 Topic: Western influence.

 (Read 4653 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Western influence.
     OP - September 02, 2009, 05:17 PM

    Folks, all of us on this forum have apostated for different reasons. Some philosophical and some for the absurdities within the sources themselves. As well as those reasons, how many of us have consciously or sub-consciously looked at "western" lifestyles and felt slightly jaded or have been in some sort of complex. For my own part, I have found those excuses shallow and a very poor excuse to use against religion. When I wasn't practising, I had been out clubbing maybe half a dozen times. Although they were enjoyable, I never really saw the big deal about it when I wasn't practising. Even now as an apostate I have no desire to go out clubbing or to get pissed. Yes maybe the odd drink or two but not anything that will make me lose my inhibitions. When I drive through the city centre on a Friday or Saturday evening and see what takes place, it astounds me to see what people get upto. Maybe it's my age and there might be others who will disagree with me. This is where muslims will no doubt point to those ex-muslims who after apostating will go clubbing religiously, drink heavily and lose their inhibitions. Integrity and self respect is very important and that doesn't mean in terms of religion. I have met women who are not religious and really have alot of integrity and self respect.
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #1 - September 02, 2009, 05:25 PM

    Another thing. When I used to speak to my work colleagues who did go out clubbing and ask them what they got out of it, their excuse was very pathetic indeed "to get shit faced" for me that is an empty statement without thought. Also alot of them were the opposite of the "just in case" muslims in that non of them have ever thought about their existence and deep questions. This is the same as those "just in case" muslims who really don't give a thought to why they believe in what they believe in. Regardless of whether someone is a believer or an unbeliever or whatever conclusion they reach, these questions should be pondered at some point or another. We are supposed to be rational animals after all.
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #2 - September 02, 2009, 05:30 PM

    Thats one good thing that I was subliminally influenced by Islam.  I never regularly got shit-faced of alcohol, nor have I ever wanted too.

    I have never quite understood the point of drinking yourself to sleep, vomit or saying/doing something you wish you hadnt. 

    But then again that could also be down to maturity..

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  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #3 - September 02, 2009, 05:32 PM

    I'd say up until about 20, I was a Muslim. 20-21 was the transitional period and when I was 21 I admitted to myself that I didn't believe. From the age of 20, I did start drinking and doing drugs and going out quite a lot. The first time I ever actually told somebody that I didn't believe in Islam, it was about 5 in the morning and I was coked up like a fucker! And the funny thing was, I was with a Hindu friend of mine who also said the same thing about Hinduism!

    Saying that, losing my religion was not the effect of me looking outwards and thinking "I fancy a bit of that!" From about the age of 18 onwards, I was thinking about religion a massive amount and it was not a decision I took lightly. That's why I hate the argument that Muslims use when they say that murtads are murtads because they love the dunya. The fear of hell and allah is an incredible thing to overcome and this is the main reason why I think people would not make the decision lightly, so that it can be easier for them to follow their whims and desires guilt free.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #4 - September 02, 2009, 05:37 PM

    I enjoy drinking as it gets me 'loose' and is quite fun. I don't see why that makes me lose my integrity and self-respect. I think you're just getting old Tongue
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #5 - September 02, 2009, 05:39 PM

    Oh, I still love drinking - just dont love getting shit-faced regularly.

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  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #6 - September 02, 2009, 05:51 PM

    I enjoy drinking as it gets me 'loose' and is quite fun. I don't see why that makes me lose my integrity and self-respect. I think you're just getting old Tongue


    I went to uni back in the early 90's and things were very much different then. Tell me? As someone who is at uni at the moment, you see people from all cultures, indo/paks as well as european. If you were to make an observation between two boys or two girls both european and indo/pak respectively, is there behaviour pattern different to each other (not counting the veiled or hijaabed girls). I want to know if things have changed as far as the girls from the indo/pak community are concerned? Are they integrating well or do they still make friends with their own race? The reason I ask is because when I was a student the indo/paks stuck with their own group and likewise with the europeans. There was another pattern as well and I'm sure those in their thirties growing up in inner cities would recall. When I was in sixth form, there were girls who would wear shalwar kameez from home and on the bus. When they got to school they changed into western clothing. This was a common phenomena in the late eighties and early nineties and really reflected a suppressed lifestyle at home coupled with a serious inferiority complex.
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #7 - September 02, 2009, 05:58 PM

    Times haven't changed at all 20years. Pakis/Indos still hang with their own kind. I feel like the odd one out, I've always done my best to integrate and have more white friends.

    There are a few who mix but we seem to be in a minority.

    My sis is one of those girls who changes into Western clothing when she gets to her mates house lol. We both prefer to wear jeans, I really do not like shalwar kameez. I'm allowed to wear jeans while I'm away at uni but my parents wont let me wear anything to revealing so I always hide those types of clothes from them.
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #8 - September 02, 2009, 06:01 PM

    I'd say sixth form's are definitely divided by race, in Birmingham at least. But universities are different. I think people tend to come out of their shell and comfort zone when they go to university and find out who they are. When I was at university which was only two years ago, it was very rare to see groups made up exclusively of asians or groups made up exclusively of blacks. Obviously, it is different with the hijabis/beardies and the Isocs.

    And by the way, when I was at school and sixth form in the late 90s/early 00s girls would wear their hijabs or dupattas on their way to school and take them off once they got to school/college. Looking around now, Muslim parents appear to be far more liberal than they were only 6 or 7 years ago.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #9 - September 02, 2009, 06:03 PM

    Times haven't changed at all 20years. Pakis/Indos still hang with their own kind. I feel like the odd one out, I've always done my best to integrate and have more white friends.


    Even at university? When I was at college it was like that but at university it was very different. Then again, there were not many asians at my university.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #10 - September 02, 2009, 06:03 PM

    When I read Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, this issue was one of the things that poked out of her book. It is one of the reasons I thought that she was a lousy spokesperson for an apostate. Firstly she never took her religion seriously and was contrasting her Somali culture with Dutch. Now that is comparing apples with oranges. For someone who lives in a tribal community and is suddenly faced with the liberal attitudes of the Dutch, what was she to expect?
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #11 - September 02, 2009, 06:07 PM

    I think kids and teens of all cultures have a natural urge to explore the forbidden and break some rules. Too much repression of that urge leads to more depravation and lack of integrity. It's natural for people of older generations, especially parents, to wonder about the kids' moral paths, but even if the kids experiment here and there, as long as they don't get into anything that will cause them long term damage (teen pregnancy, hard drugs, gangs, STDs, etc.) there's nothing wrong with letting kids have some room to explore, experiment and examine their own choices. In fact, I think it makes for a stronger character as an adult if you tried some stupid things, made some mistakes and learned from them, than if you never took any risks or broke any taboos, whatever the culture you were raised in.

    I don't think it's a good idea to support conformity or uniformity blindly, or to be a rebel just to be a rebel. But achieving a balance requires maturity and a mature handling of differences takes time, education and experience to process and figure out. Most people who were raised in immigrant families have a lot to deal with emotionally, mentally and socially to balance out their parents' culture and the culture they are raised in. It's really unfair of immigrant parents to first leave their home countries, then expect their children to take on none of the characteristics of the new culture that they, the parents, chose to bring them to.

    At the same time, it's a good idea to understand and accept one's roots, one's place in the context of the world. That doesn't mean that a person has to live out only according to some pre-set formula, though. You can know your roots and still have dreams and goals that integrate multiple cultures. It's best to take what's best in the different cultures one is exposed to, and discard the BS that is in every culture/country.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #12 - September 02, 2009, 06:11 PM

    I think the title "Western influence" is a bit of a misnomer, I don't think this has anything to do with Western culture.

    I think it's more to do with decadent youth culture that is spreading across the world. In Western Europe we see it in one form (overdrinking, taking drugs, meaningless sex) but it is present in other countries as well. In Arabia and the Gulf Countries you would find that it's rich kids spending money on cars and going to the mall everyday for example-this is just as harmful and is similarly due to decadence and lack of self control. Maybe it's all thanks to Americanised media and the image they spread-thanks to globalism it goes around the world.

    For example, I don't like going to the pub, but I enjoy going to a nice pub with a good atmosphere quite often, sometimes I drink sometimes I don't but I never get out of it. The club and pub are both Western things but I enjoy the pub and hate the club.

    Maybe it is due to your age, or the time you grew up in?

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #13 - September 02, 2009, 06:12 PM

    Even at university? When I was at college it was like that but at university it was very different. Then again, there were not many asians at my university.

    I don't know a huge amount of Asians so I might be wrong. But there definitely are a few Asians who stuck with their own race.
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #14 - September 02, 2009, 06:15 PM

    Folks, all of us on this forum have apostated for different reasons. Some philosophical and some for the absurdities within the sources themselves. As well as those reasons, how many of us have consciously or sub-consciously looked at "western" lifestyles and felt slightly jaded or have been in some sort of complex. For my own part, I have found those excuses shallow and a very poor excuse to use against religion. When I wasn't practising, I had been out clubbing maybe half a dozen times. Although they were enjoyable, I never really saw the big deal about it when I wasn't practising. Even now as an apostate I have no desire to go out clubbing or to get pissed. Yes maybe the odd drink or two but not anything that will make me lose my inhibitions. When I drive through the city centre on a Friday or Saturday evening and see what takes place, it astounds me to see what people get upto. Maybe it's my age and there might be others who will disagree with me. This is where muslims will no doubt point to those ex-muslims who after apostating will go clubbing religiously, drink heavily and lose their inhibitions. Integrity and self respect is very important and that doesn't mean in terms of religion. I have met women who are not religious and really have alot of integrity and self respect.


    I agree with you 100%.

    Up to the age of 20 I had lived a very "Western" lifestyle and part of the reason I turned to Islam was because I was disatisfied with it.

    Leaving Islam had absolutely nothing to do with wanting to live a "Western" lifestyle - whatever that is. But purely for intellectual and philosophical reasons.

    Despite this - I often get messages on youtube and elsewhere telling me I left Islam because I wanted to live a loose life, party, women etc...
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #15 - September 02, 2009, 06:26 PM

    I really do not like shalwar kameez.


    Nothing wrong with western clothing, but can I ask why you don't like shalwar kameez? If it's sewn right and not scruffy looking, indo/pak girls look very very attractive and graceful in them.
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #16 - September 02, 2009, 06:29 PM

    I think shalwar kameez looks a lot more attractive these days than it did 15 years ago! It is not just functional anymore and there is a call for a variety of styles and designs, including sexier designs.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #17 - September 02, 2009, 06:29 PM

    The experiences of men and women are also very different when it comes to the "superficial" aspects of islam or of non-islamic cultures. For women, islam imposes a lot more superficial rules as to how they can dress, where they can go, what they can do, than it does for men. If "western" culture is superficial in some ways, islam is quite superficial too, in just contrarian ways.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #18 - September 02, 2009, 06:37 PM

    Thats one good thing that I was subliminally influenced by Islam.  I never regularly got shit-faced of alcohol, nor have I ever wanted too.

    I have never quite understood the point of drinking yourself to sleep, vomit or saying/doing something you wish you hadnt. 

    But then again that could also be down to maturity..


    We have something in common...... Our age category!  Afro
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #19 - September 02, 2009, 06:53 PM

    you're not 18 are you?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #20 - September 02, 2009, 07:03 PM

    I think kids and teens of all cultures have a natural urge to explore the forbidden and break some rules. Too much repression of that urge leads to more depravation and lack of integrity. It's natural for people of older generations, especially parents, to wonder about the kids' moral paths, but even if the kids experiment here and there, as long as they don't get into anything that will cause them long term damage (teen pregnancy, hard drugs, gangs, STDs, etc.) there's nothing wrong with letting kids have some room to explore, experiment and examine their own choices. In fact, I think it makes for a stronger character as an adult if you tried some stupid things, made some mistakes and learned from them, than if you never took any risks or broke any taboos, whatever the culture you were raised in.


    This is true and is evidence that you are bringing up kids who will make the right choices in life. Both my sisters went to university more than two hundred miles away from home and were trusted 100% which is the way it should be. There are things which I have done and learnt from which made me a better and more responsible adult. This helps me when I talk to my children about the right and wrong. This is also dependent on the child as well and whether or not they will take advantage of their parents trust.

    Quote
    I don't think it's a good idea to support conformity or uniformity blindly, or to be a rebel just to be a rebel. But achieving a balance requires maturity and a mature handling of differences takes time, education and experience to process and figure out. Most people who were raised in immigrant families have a lot to deal with emotionally, mentally and socially to balance out their parents' culture and the culture they are raised in. It's really unfair of immigrant parents to first leave their home countries, then expect their children to take on none of the characteristics of the new culture that they, the parents, chose to bring them to.


    What you have said above is the type of conversation I have had with my relatives, particularly the "aunties ji's" in my family. In the city I live in, the indo/pak community always try their best to live in close proximity to their own people. Many a time I have heard those who have come to this country complain that their kids have gone astray. Now this comment can be as trivial as "she wears skirts" or as large as (in their eyes) leaving their religion. I have always asked these people, what do they expect? The same as what you have said above regarding coming to this country. You know, you come to this country initially, not integrate with the locals and with some not bother to learn the language and then expect your kids to not have any foreign culture being rubbed off on them. If you want to come to the western hemisphere then be prepared for this to happen.

    Quote
    At the same time, it's a good idea to understand and accept one's roots, one's place in the context of the world. That doesn't mean that a person has to live out only according to some pre-set formula, though. You can know your roots and still have dreams and goals that integrate multiple cultures. It's best to take what's best in the different culture one is exposed to, and discard the BS that is in every culture/country.


    Yes indeed, all cultures have good points and bad points. Some of the good points of our culture is respect for elders and not placing them in an old folks home just because it's a "burden". I find this abhorent and I wouldn't do it and also expect my kids not to do it. Then again our culture is riddled with all types of hypocrisy which at the top of the list is the treatment of the ladies. Another thing that I find disturbing about our culture is that our people simply don't mind their own business. They always try to find fault with others and always have to try and out do the other, not in education or academic achievement but in petty matters like clothes, bangles and cars. They also have a tendency to treat their adult children as though they are children.
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #21 - September 02, 2009, 07:36 PM

    This is true and is evidence that you are bringing up kids who will make the right choices in life.


    Thanks. I don't have kids yet, might someday, or might just adopt. Haven't decided yet. It's also why I can be a bit more objective about the topic than some of my same-aged peers who've had kids already.

    There are things which I have done and learnt from which made me a better and more responsible adult. This helps me when I talk to my children about the right and wrong. This is also dependent on the child as well and whether or not they will take advantage of their parents trust.


    Parents of course, want to shield their kids from all problems, all the ills of the world. It's evolutionarily necessary as human children mature a lot slower than other animals' children. It takes a lot longer for a human's brain to develop to the point where he or she can survive, feed, clothe and shelter him/her self than it does for most other animals. This trait though becomes overblown in some people.

    What you have said above is the type of conversation I have had with my relatives, particularly the "aunties ji's" in my family. In the city I live in, the indo/pak community always try their best to live in close proximity to their own people. Many a time I have heard those who have come to this country complain that their kids have gone astray. Now this comment can be as trivial as "she wears skirts" or as large as (in their eyes) leaving their religion. I have always asked these people, what do they expect? The same as what you have said above regarding coming to this country. You know, you come to this country initially, not integrate with the locals and with some not bother to learn the language and then expect your kids to not have any foreign culture being rubbed off on them. If you want to come to the western hemisphere then be prepared for this to happen.


    This is part of the problem, especially with Islamic based cultures. For example, in general, non muslims from South Asia integrate with their host countries a lot faster and more easily than muslims from the same area. Believing that "your people" are superior to everyone else and that it's *your* habits others must take on and you need never consider the validity of other people's points of view, makes for little to no understanding or integration. And integration is necessary and inevitable. Doesn't mean you lose "your" culture but multiple cultures get infused and frankly, people from multiple cultures are more interesting, and can be more ambitious and productive because they are able to see both cultures more objectively. Practically speaking, someone e.g. born in Egypt and raised in China, is bound to have parts of both cultures in their personality and memories, depending on the age they were in either place. Older immigrants (the auntie-jis) usually resist cultural exchange but if they expect their kids' and grandkids' generation to remain stale and never infuse parts of the diversity they are exposed to, they're setting themselves up for a lot of angst and heartbreak.

    Yes indeed, all cultures have good points and bad points. Some of the good points of our culture is respect for elders and not placing them in an old folks home just because it's a "burden". I find this abhorent and I wouldn't do it and also expect my kids not to do it. Then again our culture is riddled with all types of hypocrisy which at the top of the list is the treatment of the ladies. Another thing that I find disturbing about our culture is that our people simply don't mind their own business. They always try to find fault with others and always have to try and out do the other, not in education or academic achievement but in petty matters like clothes, bangles and cars. They also have a tendency to treat their adult children as though they are children.


    I agree about the old people in nursing homes being left to die.... I worked at a nursing home in New York for a few years and it was so sad to see these old people with so many stories just decaying away with nobody caring for them. That's a problem many in western cultures themselves oppose. There has to be some planning on the side of the parents for their own old age, but kids who just throw their parents away like that are also being cruel and are actually setting a very bad example for their own children who may just turn around and do the same to them.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #22 - September 02, 2009, 07:58 PM

    Sometimes the older generation can be easily offended by something that is harmless and innocent. My mother-in-law (also my khala) was staying over at my place last year. Both my daughters were in their room doing their homework with the door shut. My mother-in-law walked into the room without knocking on the door. Let me add here that neither me wife nor me enter the girls room without knocking. Anyhow my daughter said to her grandmother that she should have knocked before entering because they could have been getting changed etc. My daughter wasn't rude, but made a point. This upset my mother-in-law and she with tears streaming down her eyes said to her that when their mother was a girl, she never needed to knock before entering and didn't see what the problem was. My wife was raised in Pakistan and came here when she was nineteen after our marriage. I think here a seemingly innocent request from my daughter turned into something offensive for my mother-in-law.
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #23 - September 02, 2009, 08:01 PM

    I find with the older generation, respect is a one way thing.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #24 - September 02, 2009, 08:04 PM

    Sometimes the older generation can be easily offended by something that is harmless and innocent. My mother-in-law (also my khala) was staying over at my place last year. Both my daughters were in their room doing their homework with the door shut. My mother-in-law walked into the room without knocking on the door. Let me add here that neither me wife nor me enter the girls room without knocking. Anyhow my daughter said to her grandmother that she should have knocked before entering because they could have been getting changed etc. My daughter wasn't rude, but made a point. This upset my mother-in-law and she with tears streaming down her eyes said to her that when their mother was a girl, she never needed to knock before entering and didn't see what the problem was. My wife was raised in Pakistan and came here when she was nineteen after our marriage. I think here a seemingly innocent request from my daughter turned into something offensive for my mother-in-law.


    Oh yes, the old "there's no such thing as privacy" thing that's quite common with older, especially desi, immigrants.  Roll Eyes

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #25 - September 02, 2009, 08:07 PM

    I find with the older generation, respect is a one way thing.


    I think it's by virtue of being older. But they should always be ready for any disagreements, which unfortunately they are not and like I said even constructive kind criticism is taken as a lack of respect or an insult.
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #26 - September 02, 2009, 08:10 PM

    I also find that the older generation seem to think that once you are an adult, your parents are your number one priority. When I was getting crap about having an arranged marriage from back home, one of my parents main arguments was that they wanted a girl from Pakistan because they know that girls from Pakistan would be good to them as well. So I am meant to choose a life partner, and the main criteria is how well she treats my parents?!

    They also try to guilt trip you as well. Whenever you have an argument or raise your voice or something, my mum always says "I carried you around for 9 months and this is how you treat me!"

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #27 - September 02, 2009, 08:18 PM

    I also find that the older generation seem to think that once you are an adult, your parents are your number one priority. When I was getting crap about having an arranged marriage from back home, one of my parents main arguments was that they wanted a girl from Pakistan because they know that girls from Pakistan would be good to them as well. So I am meant to choose a life partner, and the main criteria is how well she treats my parents?!


    That's changing though now. Parents have learnt that the kids won't marry from "back home". I married from back home but it was my choice 100%. From what I know as well though, some guys from when I was in my twenties wanted to marry girls from back home because they wanted "wife material" basically someone who would be their slave and they also said that the indo/pak girls here can't be trusted and have been around the block!

    Quote
    They also try to guilt trip you as well. Whenever you have an argument or raise your voice or something, my mum always says "I carried you around for 9 months and this is how you treat me!"


    This argument is very old and tired. I myself have heard various interpretations of it. Parents need to realise that they have brought you into this world because they wanted to bring you into the world. We didn't ask for it.

  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #28 - September 02, 2009, 08:22 PM

    That's changing though now. Parents have learnt that the kids won't marry from "back home". I married from back home but it was my choice 100%. From what I know as well though, some guys from when I was in my twenties wanted to marry girls from back home because they wanted "wife material" basically someone who would be their slave and they also said that the indo/pak girls here can't be trusted and have been around the block!


    Believe me, it is still very common and people are still getting shit/pressure for it. I wouldn't go as far as parents are forcing their children to get married from pakistan, but somebody who is not as nice as me would say that. My family is not a particularly backwards family but a lot of guys around my age either have got married from Pakistan or are being pressured into it. They don't seem to be doing it a lot with girls anymore though (That is just my family mind).

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Western influence.
     Reply #29 - September 02, 2009, 09:52 PM

    Tell you what though. Islam made the indo/paks into a right conservative lot. Example, our weddings aren't have as fun as our sikh and hindu counterparts.
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