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Theme Changer

 Topic: Folowing Mohamed's Death!

 (Read 5903 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     OP - September 05, 2009, 12:15 PM

    I was talking with a group of people the other day (All were Muslims, some of them actually were heavily practicing ones).

    My talk started with a question to one of them and was like this: Can any one explain to me how Abubaker Got to be the First Calif, and not Ali (the cousin of Mohamed), and weather Mohamed was in the position of a head of state, like presidents and leaders or Kings?

    It was immediately after Iftar, we discussed what was the difference between Sunnis and Shiites and why the two divisions were initiated and how? Anyways, the discussion evolved to how Islam was turned into politics rather than spiritual thing.

    Interestingly, one of the guys who always went to Taraweeh and always took his 11 years young boy with him, decided to stay and finish the discussion with me. Of course all the others have gone to the mosque.

    What I got from that discussion was that many Muslims, don't think about Islam or religion. They just take it for granted that it is the true religion and that all the others who don't believe will be BBQed in hell.

    __________________________

    Do you Guys know exactly how the succession of leadership started in Islam? It was not in Quran, It was not clearly stated in Hadiths that first Abobaker was to step in, followed by Omar then Othman and so on!!! Actually, if you think about it.... Omar was assassinated, Othman was killed too, and so the struggle for power superimposed the spiritual side of the story at the beginning....

    What do you think guys?

    ...
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #1 - September 05, 2009, 12:16 PM

    I think your sig says it all.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #2 - September 05, 2009, 12:35 PM

    Ribs -  it must be difficult, what is your official stance with Islam amongst your friends, what type of Islam do you think that they think you follow?

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  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #3 - September 05, 2009, 12:53 PM

    I guess, they think I am a lazy non-practicing Muslim. I always tell them to pray to God for me to make me see the right path... LOL.

    Obviously, God never answers their prayers. As I know they like me very much and they must have prayed zillions of times for me, and I don't hate them for being so blind at all. i just feel sad that they believe in something that does not exist, and if existed it is in a different form that they think.

    ...
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #4 - September 05, 2009, 06:14 PM

    I think your average sunni Muslim never really thinks about these things, and partly that's because they don't have to.  In every Muslim country but Azerbaijan, Iran and Iraq, they are the majority, and many of these governments have official and unofficial policies of harassing and suppressing Shiahs.  I mean, you didn't hear about people being arrested in Egypt and Jordan this Ramadan for preaching sunnism. 

    The funny thing is that the history of Islam does not fall under one of those categories where the ulemaa-gods say 'This is for the specialised scholars only, not you peons!'  A lot of regular Muslims don't seem to realise that, probably because of the constant drone about how only 'qualified' people can teach this or that about Islam. Yet, if your average Muslim goes to the ulemaa-god to ask him about the history, he will say 'No dwelling on matters that occurred 1400 years ago.  All Sahaba are wonderful! Don't look behind the curtain!' 

    You can't even say 'If Islam was so wonderful and reformed all these sahabis who were supposedly so brutal and vicious prior to Islam, then how is it that Islam immediately started off with the wars of ridda after Muhammad died, and then the next 50 years or so were devoted to three different groups of Muslims warring and killing one another?' 

    For me, I think that it is near impossible at this point to get to the bottom of the different claims of the sunnis and Shiah.  Did Fatima die in a struggle with Omar?  Was there a dispute over land?  Was Ali the clear successor chosen by the Mo-ster and the Ummawis stepped in and suppressed that?  I really hope that someday, there are some clear answers on the true history, just like I hope the field of history studying pre-Islamic Arabia and examining Muslims' claims about how awful it was grows and reaches the regular people. 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #5 - September 05, 2009, 06:50 PM

    Do you Guys know exactly how the succession of leadership started in Islam? It was not in Quran, It was not clearly stated in Hadiths that first Abobaker was to step in, followed by Omar then Othman and so on!!! Actually, if you think about it.... Omar was assassinated, Othman was killed too, and so the struggle for power superimposed the spiritual side of the story at the beginning....

    What do you think guys?


    It's clear to me that Muhammad didn't think far ahead. I suspect he never ever imagined the success he would have in his own life-time let alone after his death. His "revelations"  Roll Eyes were all all about the here and now - dealing with immediate situations. He never left a well-thought out plan of what happens next.

    Woooops - I mean Allah wanted it all to be a bit of a mess  grin12
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #6 - September 05, 2009, 07:23 PM

    Just a quick note on (one, very particular) Sufi position.

    Hassan actually gives the Sufi response, in a way. We believe that the unfolding of Prophecy necessarily involves a "breakage" or "shattering". If you like, these men are different aspects of human psychology, and when Prophecy dies, the aspects are shattered, unbalanced. The Ummah as it stands is a sort of Cosmic Humpty Dumpty. So its not to say that Aisha was "evil" per se in her acts of fitnah, nor Abu Bakr completely malevolent in his usurping of power from Ali and Fatima: they just followed the inevitable tragedy of breakage out to its end, like players in a real life Shakespearean tragedy.

    Basically, Sufis ask themselves what can be learnt from such events (although of course you guys would say -- nothing of use!), but I thought I'd offer my two cents.

    It's undoubtedly tragic, as history attests and in particular the kind of bloodshed we see inside Iraq has a direct root in this. But, if you like, when Umar (the commanding self) faces Ali (the inner Imam) within us, we become balanced and the terror ceases. Reversing the fitnah is comparatively easy if it is just about our "inner" Umar and Ali. There is also the universal project, which is much harder: when complete reversal happens to the Ummah (in a billion years), then the bloodshed will stop.

    From my perspective, you ex-Muslims have your part to play in this Divine reversal, by raising these doubts -- it is very important that you keep nagging your Muslim friends and relatives to consider these questions, because mostly (as you know) they just refuse to conscience it, because in their hearts they have the same view as you Smiley So - uh - from my perspective, RIBS is actually doing God's work by discussing this with Muslims Cheesy

    The Kabbalists believe the same thing when it comes to Torah: after every prophet there is always serious breakage. See, for example, the death of Issac and how his sons acted toward each other. Or the sons of Jacob.

    A little poem about this here:

    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2009/07/06/come-sufis/

    Love and Light,

    The Tailor

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #7 - September 05, 2009, 08:22 PM

    You are priceless, The Tailor - and I mean that in a nice way  Smiley
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #8 - September 05, 2009, 08:47 PM

    You are priceless, The Tailor - and I mean that in a nice way  Smiley


    Thank you my truly Sufi brother Wink

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #9 - September 05, 2009, 09:18 PM

    ....from my perspective, RIBS is actually doing God's work by discussing this with Muslims...



    I am?

    ...
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #10 - September 05, 2009, 09:52 PM

    I am?

    He's a Sufi. You don't have to understand it. grin12

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #11 - September 05, 2009, 10:10 PM

    Oh OK, I thought I was missing somthing....

    ...
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #12 - September 05, 2009, 10:46 PM

    a.ghazali has a good piece about Mohammed's successors on his/her site- http://sites.google.com/site/islamicscripturesunveiled/Home/succeding-a-warlord
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #13 - September 06, 2009, 06:11 AM

    Thnx PS,

    I have noticed that there are no similar sources in Arabic. I feel like the taboo factor on the subject (questioning Islam or Mohammed) has limited the number of reliable sources about this in Arabic.

    ...
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #14 - September 06, 2009, 07:25 AM

    Here is a quote from the link that PS have suggested, it was interesting to read.....


    Succeeding a Warlord
     
    Muhammad left no clear succession plan for his empire; an oversight which has to this day led to factions within Islam as to who are the true Muslims. From 632 to 661, four Caliphs ruled from Medina, elected by the closest followers of the prophet. (Caliph means ?a successor?, but it became the title of the person who became the religious and political leader after Muhammad's death.)
     
    There was a core group of believers who along with Muhammad came to be known as the salafiya (the righteous companions). They became the first four caliphs - Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali ibn Abu Talib.
     
    When Muhammad died, a struggle developed among his followers as to who should assume leadership of the ummah. A group of followers that ultimately became Sunni believed the position should be by consensus from prominent Muslim leaders. The group that believed the succession should be based in familial ties ultimately became Shi?ite. As Ali was the only blood relation to Muhammad this group pressed for Ali?s claim as Caliph.
     
    However, Umar petitioned the believers to select Abu Bakr as successor to the prophet and he was duly appointed the first Caliph. He sent Khalid to subdue the tribes who rebelled immediately after the death of Muhammad. United by a military force of 18,000, they advanced on Palestine and Syria in 634 and defeated the Byzantine armies at Yarmouk River in 636. Forty thousand more Muslims marched to conquer North Africa. At home he used Umar to force Ali and his followers to submit to his caliphate and denied Ali's family the inheritance of Muhammad's property and land.
     
    With the death of Abu Bakr after two years as Caliph, Umar was elected the second Caliph. He was the father of Hafsa, Muhammad's fourth wife. Under his rule the Muslim empire expanded throughout Egypt, Syria and into the Persian Empire and achieved the surrender of Jerusalem to the Muslims. Umar was stabbed to death by a fellow Muslim in the Medina Mosque in 646.
     
    Again Ali was bypassed as Caliph when Uthman ibn Affan was selected. He was from the Ummayid clan and was married to Ruqqayah and Um Kuthulm, two of Muhammad's daughters by Kadijja. Under his rule the empire expanded rapidly with him appointing family members to military and government positions to maintain control. Also he spearheaded the revision of the Qur?an and ordered all previous copies to be burnt. He too was murdered when 80 years old while reading the Qur?an at his palace.
     
    When Ali, the first cousin of Muhammad, husband of Muhammad?s daughter, Fatima, and one of the first Muslims, was finally appointed in 656, the governor of Syria, Muawiya, refused to recognize him as Caliph. This resulted in a long drawn out civil war between the two parties. Trouble also brewed with Aisha who had hoped that Zubayr would become caliph after Uthman. She incited the citizens against Ali and was able to summon support from various corners of the empire. Aisha now took command of an army opposed to Ali.
     
    Ali was forced to abandon his campaign against Muawiya, deciding instead, to use his small force against Aisha. The two armies met outside Basra with Aisha mounting her camel (Battle of Camel). Ali ordered his men not to take offensive action unless the enemy reached their lines. Wherever the camel of Aisha stood, there the battle was waged most fiercely. As long as that animal was standing, Ali realized, the battle would continue. He therefore ordered that the legs of the camel be cut. Within a very short time after bringing down the animal, the bugle sounded to signal the end of the battle. Ali allowed Aisha to return to her home advising her that it was not becoming of the prophet?s wife to be involved in squabbles within the ummah.
     
    The caliphate of Ali came to an end in 661 when he was assassinated by one of his own followers.
     
    Previously, Ali in the interest of conciliation between the various contentious groups bided his time until he was finally caliph. However upon his assassination the major split in Islam took roots.
     
    With the death of Ali came the end of the period known as Rashidun (The Rightly Guided Caliphs). These were the Caliphs who were companions of the prophet and hence considered to be guided properly in the faith.
     
    The governor of Syria, Muawiyah, a cousin of Uthman (the third caliph), insisted on the return of the caliphate to the Ummayid clan. Ali's son, Hassan agreed to the request under military pressure. With Hassan's death under suspicious circumstances, followed shortly after by Muawiyah death, Yazid, son of Muawiyah was appointed the next caliph.
     
    Hassan's brother, Hussein, son of Fatima and hence grandson of the prophet, raised an army to march against the Ummayad?s who Ali?s descendants called the Usurper's dynasty.
     
    On October 10th 680 (Muharram - first month of the Islamic calendar.), Hussein and his companions fought against a large army of perhaps 4,000 men under the command of Umar ibn Sa'd. Hussein and all of his men were killed. The bodies of the dead, including that of Hussein were then mutilated.
     
    Today, the death of Hussein ibn Ali is commemorated by Shi?ite Muslims during every Muharram.The bloody struggle for power and ideology within Islam continues unabated since the death of Muhammad. In addition to the collective goal of ridding the planet of Dar-ul-Harb, the non-believing world, Islam in this technologically advanced age poses a distinct threat to humanity when swords can be easily swapped for weapons not yet imagined in the minds of Muhammad and his companions.


    ...
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #15 - September 06, 2009, 08:15 AM

    a.ghazali has a good piece about Mohammed's successors on his/her site- http://sites.google.com/site/islamicscripturesunveiled/Home/succeding-a-warlord


    Thanks, and its his  sheikh

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #16 - September 06, 2009, 09:12 AM

    learned a lot from that  Afro

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  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #17 - September 06, 2009, 02:48 PM

    The thing is Abu Bakr's "election" was not a mutual affair.

    The Caliph debate between different Sahaba at the Saqifa of Bani Saada had become almost close to fight. Many sources allege that this happened before Muhammad had been given his funeral prayers and burial (not many people attended it because of this commotion). Quite a show of unity  Roll Eyes

    At one moment, Umar bamboozled the entire audience by instantly grabbing Abu Bakr's hand and gave bayah swearing allegiance to Abu Bakr as the Caliph. The crowd was stunned, and this shock and awe tactic took effect when many Sahaba reluctantly came forward one by one and swore their allegiance to Abu Bakr.

    He was already very old, his reign barely lasted 2 years of immense social unrest which he ordered to be brutally quelled, and when he died he made Umar as his successor. Umar was not elected. Oh and Umar was stabbed to death by an ex-slave of the Sassanid Emperor Yazdegard III named Pirooz a.k.a Abu Lulu who stabbed him in revenge for destroying the Persian Empire with an unprovoked invasion.

    Uthman was attacked at the end of his reign by a group of rebellious old Sahaba and their followers angry at his decisions and centralising of powers within the Umayyad clan. The main opponent was Aisha followed by Talha and Zubayr.

    The same people then used the mistake to incite rebellion against Ali by accusing him of not doing enough to punish Uthman's killers. This included Aisha and then Muawiya ibn Abi Sufyan. With Aisha's army defeated with heavy losses and her banished back to Madinah, Muawiya was a crafty bastard and he put a strong resistance that eventually divided the Caliphate between Ali and Muawiya in an uneasy truce. This made another group that was pissed off at both Ali and Muawiya to emerge named the Kharijites who set out to remove both from power. After Ali's forces crushed a force, the remaining Kharijites decided to assassinate the likes of Ali, Muawiya, and Muawiya's sidekick Amr ibn Aas. The latter two didnt get a scratch, Ali got killed in Kufa at the poisoned sword of Abdur Rahman ibn Muljim.

    The rest as they say is history.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #18 - September 06, 2009, 03:07 PM

    I reckon mohammed didnt say anything about his succession on purpose.  He probably knew it would cause division and hamper his leadership, so he left them all during his lifetime with the sweet taste of power, which in turn kept them competing to prove their loyalty

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  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #19 - September 06, 2009, 03:17 PM

    I wonder if a test for IQ was done at that time, what grade would Mohammed get? Obviously he was a very intelligent man:think:

    ...
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #20 - September 06, 2009, 03:37 PM

    I dont think he was that intelligent.. the book he wrote was repetitive & riddled with flaws

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  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #21 - September 06, 2009, 03:40 PM

    I dont think he was that intelligent.. the book he wrote was repetitive & riddled with flaws


    Well he seemed intelligent enough to get his wife, a best friend and nephew to believe him in the first instance. Seems as though it worked for him. The rest is history.....
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #22 - September 06, 2009, 03:42 PM

    I wonder if a test for IQ was done at that time, what grade would Mohammed get? Obviously he was a very intelligent man:think:

    Hitler also had a high IQ too apparently...

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #23 - September 06, 2009, 03:55 PM

    Tests didnt work on Hitler

    For example, according to one test he was 6ft tall, on his death he was announced to be 5'8.

    I wonder why?

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #24 - September 06, 2009, 05:20 PM

    Hitler also had a high IQ too apparently...

    Shame he didn't apply it when gassing the Jews.

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  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #25 - September 06, 2009, 05:31 PM

    I guess because IQ and being nice is not necesserily corelated. A serial killer could have a high IQ.

    ...
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #26 - September 06, 2009, 05:35 PM

    I guess because IQ and being nice is not necesserily corelated. A serial killer could have a high IQ.

    No, I think it was more misdirected IQ based on poor information.  He thought the Germans would gain an evolutionary advantage by wiping out gays, handicapped, and other 'misfits'.  Sadly he did not understand the phenomenon of genetic mutation which will happen anyway.

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #27 - September 06, 2009, 06:39 PM

    May be he cheated in the IQ test to impress his loyal gang members Wink

    ...
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #28 - September 06, 2009, 07:20 PM

    I think Muhammad and Hitler were extremely intelligent. You have to be very intelligent to achieve what they did.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Folowing Mohamed's Death!
     Reply #29 - September 06, 2009, 07:24 PM

    You could also be just above average intelligence but be at the right place at the right time, and also have extreme luck on your side.  I am yet to see anything new and innovative that would point to either of them being geniuses, most of their ideas were copied from others.

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