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 Topic: High IQ turns academics into atheists

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  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #90 - September 06, 2009, 06:04 PM

    There are three groupings genetically distinct enough to be described as races, and there is no evidence of any significant average IQ differences between them.


    What distinction is it you think you're making, and why is it necessary?

    This brings to mind waves on an ocean.

    Quote
    The difference in IQ averages...


    What differences in IQ averages?

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #91 - September 06, 2009, 06:32 PM

    Quote
    What distinction is it you think you're making, and why is it necessary?


    Its not me that's making the distinction, its anthropologists and geneticists.  And it isn't necessary, any more than a distinction between male and female is necessary.  That's just the way it is.

    Quote
    What differences in IQ averages?


    The differences between various countries, a list of which has already been posted in this thread.


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #92 - September 06, 2009, 06:55 PM

    Its not me that's making the distinction, its anthropologists and geneticists.


    Many of them don't. And when they do they don't mean the same thing.

    If you're defending an idea it is important to know what idea you are defending.

    Quote
    And it isn't necessary, any more than a distinction between male and female is necessary.  That's just the way it is.


    Unlike race, the distinction between biological sexes is unambiguous. No-one contests that there are biological sexes and what that essentially means. It is necessary to reproduce, at least. Race didn't mean anything until about four hundred years ago. Sex always has.

    Quote
    The differences between various countries, a list of which has already been posted in this thread.


    That was created by Richard Lynne you do realise, and is intended to show racial correlations in IQ. If you take it at face value it would rule out culture and education etc. as factors

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #93 - September 06, 2009, 07:00 PM

    Cheesy You win my nomination for the next jester of the month award


    Cheers mate  thnkyu
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #94 - September 06, 2009, 07:03 PM

    Quote
    Many of them don't. And when they do they don't mean the same thing.

    If you're defending an idea it is important to know what idea you are defending.



    There are three commonly agreed on races, now that the old racist myths based on ignorance have been ironed out.

    Quote
    Unlike race, the distinction between biological sexes is unambiguous. No-one contests that there are biological sexes and what that essentially means. It is necessary to reproduce, at least. Race didn't mean anything until about four hundred years ago. Sex always has.



    When an anthropologist is faced with a skeleton they first try and determine whether its the remains of a male or a female, then they determine whether its the remains of a Caucasian, East Asian or African.  It helps with identifying missing persons who show up as murder victims.  DNA evidence can do the same with identifying criminals and victims.  

    Even the anthropologists and geneticists that contend race is a social construct, don't contest that.

    Quote
    That was created by Richard Lynne you do realise, and is intended to show racial correlations in IQ. If you take it at face value it would rule out culture and education etc. as factors


    Yes, I know.  That's what is so funny, his own list makes a bollocks of his racial/IQ correlation argument.




    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #95 - September 06, 2009, 07:12 PM

    There are three commonly agreed on races


    Even if that's so my question is unanswered.

    Quote
    Even the anthropologists and geneticists that contend race is a social construct, don't contest that.


    So it's not all so straight-forward after all  Tongue

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #96 - September 06, 2009, 07:17 PM

    I don't count Cappoid or Australoid, they're both sub groups within Negroid. 


    No, Australoids were "perhaps from a common type before the separation of the Mongoloids and Caucasoids".

    Anyway that doesn't matter anymore with the recent Genome mapping.

    "God is a geometer" - Plato

    "God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #97 - September 06, 2009, 07:18 PM

    We're just going to have to agree to disagree Panoptic.  I'm going with the current scientific evidence for three distinct genetic groupings which are generally called race.

    However, the race as a determinant of IQ argument is bollocks, I assume we both agree on that.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #98 - September 06, 2009, 07:58 PM

    There are three groupings genetically distinct enough to be described as races, and there is no evidence of any significant average IQ differences between them.  

    Perhaps, but I have only ever seen evidence to support the theory that there are IQ differences.
    Quote
    The difference in IQ averages correlates with different environments and cultures, not genetic/racial differences.

    Now if you do accept that there can be differences, then this is a matter of opinion - it can either be down to environment or our gene pool.  Until I see objective supporting evidence, with a better developed IQ test, then I am happy to sit on the fence on this one.  

    However from my understanding of evolution, it is entirely faesible that closed gene pools (and they all relatively have been up until the last few generations with our advances in travel) will have differences in intelligence, as they do with other physically inherited traits.

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  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #99 - September 06, 2009, 08:17 PM

    We're just going to have to agree to disagree Panoptic.

    I'm going with the current scientific evidence for three distinct genetic groupings which are generally called race.

    However, the race as a determinant of IQ argument is bollocks, I assume we both agree on that.


    >.>

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #100 - September 06, 2009, 08:33 PM

    Perhaps, but I have only ever seen evidence to support the theory that there are IQ differences.Now if you do accept that there can be differences, then this is a matter of opinion - it can either be down to environment or our gene pool.  Until I see objective supporting evidence, with a better developed IQ test, then I am happy to sit on the fence on this one.  

    However from my understanding of evolution, it is entirely faesible that closed gene pools (and they all relatively have been up until the last few generations with our advances in travel) will have differences in intelligence, as they do with other physically inherited traits.



    +1

    Completely agree

    In the past inbreeding has not only restricted general health (including intelligence) but also may have damaged it in some regions.
    See this page
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=6353.32

    As I said earlier, cross-racial breeding is the way forward for the human race. If we allow ourselves to understand the qualities of gene, only then we can do something and discover ways to boost the average human intellegence levels.
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #101 - September 06, 2009, 08:56 PM

    discover ways to boost the average human intellegence levels.

    and that my friend is one way to destroy religion given the original subject matter of this thread (whoever derailed it deserves a beating!)

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  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #102 - September 06, 2009, 09:11 PM

    I've been hearing this Richard Lynne dude quoted a lot lately, usually in the context of someone trying to "prove" that black people are less intelligent than white.  I'm skeptical of his research, I think it may contain a fair amount of confirmation bias.


    That was al cheetah's fault  Wink
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #103 - September 06, 2009, 09:13 PM

    Yep, that was me and it was a valid objection to raise.   Tongue

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #104 - September 06, 2009, 09:19 PM

    bend down 040

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  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #105 - September 06, 2009, 09:26 PM

     hiding

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #106 - September 06, 2009, 09:29 PM

    This was a very interesting discussion.

    In the past I tried to convince my cousin that Islam has deep flaws. But he was in a deep denial and his reply was, "I am gifted with iman (belief)"

    Tomorrow I am gonna drop him a line with links to those IQ/religion graph and ask him would he like to be known as gifted with iman or gifted with IQ. This will be very painful for him as he thinks he is the smartest person.  dance
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #107 - September 08, 2009, 09:44 AM

    Os - are you saying intelligence levels (however you measure them) should be the same with all races  Huh?

    No. I'm saying that to the best of my knowledge no differences in intelligence have been demonstrated.


    Hmm, I'll have to get back to studying modern evolution of man.

    Re: Inuits. Either: they migrated more recently than evolved or they haven't reached a development threshold yet. Check out Iceland, totally watered off Island where I think they did evolve over many years. But it has only been recently that the cold has become manageable leading to modern development.

    It's a beautiful landscape to look at but a hard one in which to live, especially in the 1,000 years Iceland was inhabited prior to the invention of electricity and the combustion engine. 'You have to be not only tough but inventive to survive here,' said Svafa. 'If you don't use your imagination, you're finished; if you stand still, you die.'

    Not sure what Iceland has to do with the Inuit as they only got to Greenland I think. Incidentally Greenland used to be greener than it is now. That is how a Norse settlement was able to hang in there for quite some time.

    Re the multiregional evolution idea: I've always had an aversion to this one in the absence of strong evidence for it. I'm more of an "out of Africa" type because I think it is more plausible purely on genetic grounds. If the multiregional theory were correct I would expect something like a "ring species effect" in modern humans and it doesn't exist. Because of this I think it is likely the common ancestors of all modern humans were relatively recent.

    Regardless of whether or not the multiregional theory is correct the whole "cold winters leads to smarter people" idea just sounds like bollocks to me. I really don't think that surviving in some of the harshest deserts on earth is going to be significantly easier than surviving Europe during the ice age. Heat and sun and lack of food will kill you as surely as cold and lack of food. Not only that but I think you would have a greater chance of dehydration, which will kill you very quickly indeed.

    Then you have to consider that many of the people listed in that list that was quoted earlier live in very harsh circumstances and yet they do not perform as well on IQ tests as other people in easier climates. It is well known that poor nutrition can lead to reduced intelligence, so on that basis you could claim that humans who evolved in easier climates could be expected to show greater intelligence. They may not have needed it so badly but they would have had the resources to run it. Brains are extremely expensive in metabolic terms.

    A final point to consider is that some of this planet's most successful species do not rely on what we call intelligence for their success. This includes species that have been around far longer than we have and may well outlive us. Many of them exist in harsh climates too, so if you try to claim that harsh climates lead to greater intelligence you are going to have your work cut out for you if you want to prove it.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #108 - September 08, 2009, 10:00 AM

    I dont buy the argument that difficult terrains would promote a higher degree of intelligence either. 

    I was thinking it more of a possibility going down the route of female selection.  We all know women like different things in a man, and vice versa.  Some are more attracted to the physical attributes of a man, his physique, his looks etc.  Others are attracted by the way they think and their intelligence.

    Now if we accept that certain cultures (perhaps the Ashkenazi Jews) there exists a degree of intellectual snobbery, and in others physical attributes such as strength, have a greater relevence.  Then over generations could this have an effect?

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  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #109 - September 08, 2009, 10:11 AM

    Oh sure, and there's even a standard term for it. It's called sexual selection and is a recognised part of modern evolutionary theory. For example, I just happen to prefer women with black hair and dark eyes. There is no obvious reason why I should and they don't seem to have any greater chance of surviving than other women so I don't think you could argue that I'm programmed this way due to evolutionary fitness or whatever.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #110 - September 08, 2009, 03:45 PM

    But you could have been programmed to think this way by your culture.  Then everyone in your closed group would evolve with black hair & dark eyes.

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  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #111 - September 08, 2009, 04:35 PM

    As far as I'm aware we have been programmed to prefer mates with immune systems different to our own. It was on NewScientist a while ago, cant remember the article name. This doesn't work too well in practice I've noticed.
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #112 - September 08, 2009, 04:42 PM

    As far as I'm aware we have been programmed to prefer mates with immune systems different to our own. It was on NewScientist a while ago, cant remember the article name. This doesn't work too well in practice I've noticed.



    I read that the p-pill?,destroy this smelling sence among woman,to choose partners with a different set of genes that fit with hers.

  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #113 - September 08, 2009, 05:27 PM

    Really? That's interesting (it hasn't done that for me).
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #114 - September 08, 2009, 05:54 PM

    Really? That's interesting (it hasn't done that for me).

     Huh? Do you and your partner share the same recent ancestral heritage?

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  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #115 - September 08, 2009, 05:57 PM

    No, I'm Pakistani and he's British (and white). This doesn't prove anything though as I'm quite sure there's more to attraction then just 'smell'.
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #116 - September 08, 2009, 09:50 PM

    Because of this I think it is likely the common ancestors of all modern humans were relatively recent.


    Oh I completely forgot, there is a strong theory that humans were almost eradicated about 100,000 years ago, causing a bottleneck in the gene pool and after a great expansion in population it illustrates why as a species we are similar (well, more similar than humans compared to monkeys).

    I really don't think that surviving in some of the harshest deserts on earth is going to be significantly easier than surviving Europe during the ice age. Heat and sun and lack of food will kill you as surely as cold and lack of food. Not only that but I think you would have a greater chance of dehydration, which will kill you very quickly indeed.


    No I disagree. I'm pretty sure if a mathematical model was done on the energy lost in the cold compared to energy to find water/food in a warm climate that overall living in a cold climate would be harsher. Can't find such a study, but here is a tin pot one.

    It is well known that poor nutrition can lead to reduced intelligence, so on that basis you could claim that humans who evolved in easier climates could be expected to show greater intelligence.


    I disagree. In the short term nutrition definitely helps. But in the long run, over generations, those who need to *think* will be the one who are more *practical* and so *survive*.

    Many of them exist in harsh climates too, so if you try to claim that harsh climates lead to greater intelligence you are going to have your work cut out for you if you want to prove it.


    So basically, why are polar bears not on the moon yet? Well, they have thick coats. They just happen to evolved that way. Camels just happened to form humps to help them survive the scarce dessert conditions ... and it just so happened (with the 100 different mutations per person) that humans evolved a mind in order to survive the cold (I think).

    One more thing: the economy of today needs more than just IQ: there need to be EQ, perseverance and tenacity. From personal experiences alone there are differences on this across cultures. E.g. In SE Asia and S America, it's fine to leave things to tomorrow or turn up an hour late late. In Germany people get in the office at 7am and it's pretty damn rude to be more than 10 min late. Unsurprisingly it's no wonder to me why Germany has the biggest economy in Europe and is known for it's efficiency.

    Hey OS, least we have the free will to disagree!  Cheesy
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #117 - September 09, 2009, 02:45 AM

    But you could have been programmed to think this way by your culture.  Then everyone in your closed group would evolve with black hair & dark eyes.

    You're putting the cart before the horse I think. Before that could happen the culture would need to evolve and presumably it is subject to evolutionary pressures too.

    In any case it doesn't apply to me because I wasn't programmed that way by cultural pressures. Remember that I'm basically your average white Australian so black hair and dark eyes, although not uncommon, is certainly not the norm. This was even more true during my earlier years when the effects of the white Australia policy were still being felt even though officially it had been dropped as being a silly idea.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #118 - September 09, 2009, 03:09 AM

    Oh I completely forgot, there is a strong theory that humans were almost eradicated about 100,000 years ago, causing a bottleneck in the gene pool and after a great expansion in population it illustrates why as a species we are similar (well, more similar than humans compared to monkeys).

    Yes I know about that. The Toba eruption was one suggested cause. Not sure on the current consensus but I know some people were questioning whether the bottleneck was real and when, if ever, it happened. The point is though that even if you allow for this it doesn't get around my objection.

    Ring species, if you're not familiar with the term, are species that although distinct are capable of interbreeding with their neighbouring species and sometimes do this in the wild. However if you take the example of species of gulls living around the edges of an ocean (which was one of the earliest recorded demonstrations of the principle) you get a situation where by the time you come full circle the species are so different that they cannot and do not interbreed, even though for the rest of the circuit there is a chain of species that can and do sometimes interbreed.

    This is what I meant about the theory of multiregional evolution of humans over millions of years in different climates. I would expect some greater genetic differences than what we see in practice. Throwing in a bottleneck circa 100,000 years BP does nothing to change this and indeed may well exacerbate the effect, because then you would have separated and divergent populations each being reduced to a smaller gene pool and regenerating from that basis, which would (I think) tend to result in greater differences between populations.

    So as I said, in the absence of strong evidence for the multiregional theory I tend to think the "out of Africa fairly recently in one lump" theory is more likely.


    Quote
    No I disagree. I'm pretty sure if a mathematical model was done on the energy lost in the cold compared to energy to find water/food in a warm climate that overall living in a cold climate would be harsher. Can't find such a study, but here is a tin pot one.

    I didn't say "warm climate". I said some of the harshest deserts on Earth. IOW, bloody hot and dry climates with extremely limited resources. These climates can be lethal very quickly.
     

    Quote
    I disagree. In the short term nutrition definitely helps. But in the long run, over generations, those who need to *think* will be the one who are more *practical* and so *survive*.

    So basically, why are polar bears not on the moon yet? Well, they have thick coats. They just happen to evolved that way. Camels just happened to form humps to help them survive the scarce dessert conditions ... and it just so happened (with the 100 different mutations per person) that humans evolved a mind in order to survive the cold (I think).

    Possibly, but not certainly. Bear in mind that before you can grow a large brain you need the resources to run it. If these are not available then it will never happen, regardless of how useful it might be in theory. One thing that some people don't realise is that evolution does not necessarily lead to optimum solutions. All it leads to is solutions that work well enough for the moment. Sometimes it doesn't even lead to that, which is why extinctions are so commonplace.

    So, if you do have the resources to grow a large brain then you don't just need to use it to hunt mammoths or whatever. You can also use it to entertain and enthrall your companions. This may well help to attract a mate, in which case the genes for that brain will tend to become self-perpetuating. In other words, it could have started off not because of hunting during an ice age but simply because stupid people aren't as interesting. Hominid brains were increasing in size before any of them left Africa so it aint all down to hunting mammoths in Asia.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: High IQ turns academics into atheists
     Reply #119 - September 09, 2009, 07:46 AM


    Possibly, but not certainly. Bear in mind that before you can grow a large brain you need the resources to run it. If these are not available then it will never happen, regardless of how useful it might be in theory. One thing that some people don't realise is that evolution does not necessarily lead to optimum solutions. All it leads to is solutions that work well enough for the moment. Sometimes it doesn't even lead to that, which is why extinctions are so commonplace.

    Interesting..

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