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Theme Changer

 Topic: Buddhism

 (Read 29097 times)
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  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #60 - September 07, 2009, 10:16 PM

    Actually that looks more like someone is rubbing an all mighty vagina.


    That gets my vote.  Afro

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #61 - September 07, 2009, 10:26 PM

    A Gahazali - well put to the above.

    Brainyape - how do we know it's not the truth, reincarnation, as you suggest?


    Jack, I am not saying reincarnation is false. But as of now, the assertion,"reincarnation is true" is false.

    A Gahazali , I contend that if it's based on the idea of Karma, it mat not look that dangerous. But still it could be a motivation for suicide, if not sucide bombings.



    "God is a geometer" - Plato

    "God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #62 - September 07, 2009, 10:45 PM

    The thing is, life has its ups and downs. And in bad times the religious institutions have the structure to support individual/families in a way the non-religious do not have.

    Good point.  Rather cleverly Christians have historically always monoplised the education, welfare and nursing institutions

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #63 - September 07, 2009, 11:22 PM

    A Gahazali , I contend that if it's based on the idea of Karma, it mat not look that dangerous. But still it could be a motivation for suicide, if not sucide bombings.


    Not that dangerous? Then how dangerous and in what way?

    How from all that we've discussed or you know about reincarnation could you deduce that reincarnation could lead one to be a suicide bomber? Why would a concept that clearly expounds that you get in return the actions that you perform drive anyone to kill and maim others and yourself?

    You?ve been making many such statements which I?ve asked for clarification but you have not answered them. For instance you?ve said:
    - It can cause people to act in an insane way.
    - It can result in people wanting to blow up the world
    - fear of being born again as a beetle, guide our interpretations. Unwishful thinking could be equally dangerous as wishful thinking.

    Now it can lead to suicide bombings.

    Maybe if you explain how you came to each of those conclusions I could better come to grips as to why you think reincarnation is dangerous.


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #64 - September 07, 2009, 11:31 PM

    On a sociocultural level, I don't think the concept of reincarnation is as dangerous as the idea of a heaven with virgins/raisins waiting for you if you kill people in the name of your religion.

    What I do find a problem with reincarnation on that sociocultural level is the sense of inertia that some traditions of Hinduism are stuck in. The idea of "well that's my lot in this life" or impotence in the face of injustice because so and so will get his just desserts "in the next life" and such things which disempower people from taking charge of their own lives and fighting against the odds to better their own lives and those of others in their communities.

    I don't think in theory at least, belief in reincarnation based on one's karmic debt would necessarily lead people to blow up buildings. But it could lead to justifications of all sorts of social ills.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #65 - September 07, 2009, 11:44 PM

    Are you defending the belief that 'people born with disability or handicap are that way because they were 'bad' in a previous life and now they must suffer a life-time of pain without knowing why' - if you are I'd really like to hear your explanation.

     

    Reincarnation does not only result in being handicapped and suffering all your life because you were 'bad'. It's all directly proportional to your previous actions. You can be born with a handicap but have a great life. You can be born normal but develop an illness later. You get good and bad in correlation to your actions. Good and bad is sprinkled throughout your life.

    If reincarnation was true and Hitler was to be reborn, do you think he should suffer some reaction for the crimes he committed? If he does then should someone condemn the process because that person is suffering?

    You say we cannot remember the past life. That is true to the extent we understand what remembering is.

    Many times in our subconscious there is a resonance of events, likes/dislikes, abilities (mental and physical), emotional rushes, dreams, nightmares, fears, phobias, deja vu, etc. Many of these can point to experiences from past lives as found in many hypnotic regression studies.

    We get a new brain with each birth. It will not store past memories in an accessible form for the new life. But we supposedly grow in each life based on where we left off in the previous.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #66 - September 07, 2009, 11:55 PM

    On a sociocultural level, I don't think the concept of reincarnation is as dangerous as the idea of a heaven with virgins/raisins waiting for you if you kill people in the name of your religion.

    What I do find a problem with reincarnation on that sociocultural level is the sense of inertia that some traditions of Hinduism are stuck in. The idea of "well that's my lot in this life" or impotence in the face of injustice because so and so will get his just desserts "in the next life" and such things which disempower people from taking charge of their own lives and fighting against the odds to better their own lives and those of others in their communities.

    I don't think in theory at least, belief in reincarnation based on one's karmic debt would necessarily lead people to blow up buildings. But it could lead to justifications of all sorts of social ills.


    Of all the arguments so far that's the one that hits the nail on the head with regards to the the problem with karma.

    People accepting as their lot in life what they perceive is due to them from a previous life. They do not take action against others because they feel karma will deal with that.

    But the same can be said from heaven and hell where you can come to the same conclusion. Or worse yet the concept of pre-destination where you think your destiny is already written in Allah's divine plan.

    Karma though is all about action. Doing and improving for the next life. You might get such and such in this life but you have to work and do good to improve for the next.


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #67 - September 08, 2009, 12:09 AM

    Karma though is all about action. Doing and improving for the next life. You might get such and such in this life but you have to work and do good to improve for the next.


    When people do believe that it's their purpose to work and do good to improve their next life, it can be very beneficial to the individual and the society.

    I personally like Neitzche's idea that what if we each have to keep reliving our own lives over and over and over. Now that, if understood, could really make for a quick path to enlightenment. Of course it's not an empirical statement, only a thought experiment, like most of what Neitzsche said Wink But it does lead one to rethink what one is doing with his or her own life and if it were to be true that I have to keep reliving my this life then what do I need to change in it NOW.

    Quote
    Freidrich Nietzsche:
    "What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: 'This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more' ... Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: 'You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine."


    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #68 - September 08, 2009, 12:24 AM

    I dont have this need, as I have long since established that its all horse manure and what people do who have  little grip on reality.


    I think there is a difference between a religious ritual and having ritual in one's life.  One can have a meditation ritual that has nothing to do with any gods.  I'm not much for meditating though.  I get too distracted.

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #69 - September 08, 2009, 12:26 AM

    I try practice Mushin meditation as often as I can to help me with focus, but I think in terms of stress relief, exercise is the best meditation.

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #70 - September 08, 2009, 12:28 AM

    I find a lot of mystery, beauty and awe in nature. Like what it says in this article on the Daylight Atheism site:

    Also, studying astronomy gives me that sense of magnitude and reverence that makes me calm inside:

    (Clicky for piccy!)
    A small, dense object only twelve miles in diameter is responsible for this beautiful X-ray nebula that spans 150 light years.
    Chandra Images


    Yeah no, I get that but it is a very solitary enterprise.  If I sat in a circle with the sufis doing zikr, I did not feel any connection to any god whatsoever, but the experience of doing something in concert, being in the company of people who were my friends at that time, and the sort of trance-like state that you get from this repetition, lowered lights, etc.  I liked that. It cleared my mind and gave me a time when I was sort of in this state where deep thought and relaxation was enforced upon me - by my own self. I can't do that sort of thing on my own. I will start wondering about the number of tiles on the floor or what wattage the light bulbs are or something like that.  I know there are very liberal sufi groups - they call them the goofy sufis - that non-theists can join in with, but I would not have anything to do with anything that remotely has anything to do with Islam at this point.  

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #71 - September 08, 2009, 12:29 AM

    Allahu snackbar!



    What! That is awesome.   Afro

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #72 - September 08, 2009, 12:36 AM

    Yeah no, I get that but it is a very solitary enterprise.  If I sat in a circle with the sufis doing zikr, I did not feel any connection to any god whatsoever, but the experience of doing something in concert, being in the company of people who were my friends at that time, and the sort of trance-like state that you get from this repetition, lowered lights, etc.  I liked that. It cleared my mind and gave me a time when I was sort of in this state where deep thought and relaxation was enforced upon me - by my own self. I can't do that sort of thing on my own. I will start wondering about the number of tiles on the floor or what wattage the light bulbs are or something like that.  I know there are very liberal sufi groups - they call them the goofy sufis - that non-theists can join in with, but I would not have anything to do with anything that remotely has anything to do with Islam at this point.  


    Sounds like you need to build a community of friends around you. Have you looked into things like laughter yoga groups and drumming circles? They can be just as communal and personally satisfying as any religious community. You just have to find the right ones. You could also start one if no such group exists in your area.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #73 - September 08, 2009, 12:41 AM

    So is there really any scientific evidence that we reincarnate?  It seems to be anecdotal, from what was mentioned here.  Speaking only for myself, if there can't be any real, measurable, observable scientific evidence for something, I can't entertain the idea of believing in it.  Only because of the way I lived Islam for so long with that false 'scientifically true' meme. I accepted the words of Muslims that the scientific claims of Islam were true - I'm not very good with science or particularly interested in it - only to realize, of course, that they pretty much lie their asses off.  Do you understand where I am coming from?


    Yes I understand where you're coming from. And I didn't want this to seem like some conversion to 'reincartionism'.

    I was simply attempting to convey some of the concepts of reincarnation that I've picked up from reading about it. I just found some of the comments seemed ill-informed. Kind of felt like what a fundie might say about evolution without really understanding it.

    OK, reincarnation doesn't have the evidence as evolution has, so it not comparable on that level. But as a Muslim I was fed an erroneous concept of reincarnation which I subsequently discovered to be incomplete or misleading.

    So just thought I'd clarify what I thought may have been misconceptions. Of course reincarnation is not a scientifically proven fact, though many cases have been recorded.

    But if reincarnation still comes across to some as being disgusting, dangerous, make you act insane, or cause you to destroy the world, or commit suicide then sure it?s your prerogative.

    The thing is you don't really have to be interested in any organised religion or be into Eastern philosophies to look into phenomenons such as this.

    Actually recent polls in the US showed that 25% of adults believed in reincarnation. Over 30% in Russia, 22% in Western Europe and Eastern European states ranging from 12-44%. That's quite large percentages in counties that are considered predominantly Christian. Of course numbers don't make anything true. But when an idea is adopted freely, especially one that goes against the long term religious/cultural norms, there maybe some legitimacy to its claim.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #74 - September 08, 2009, 12:43 AM

    I try practice Mushin meditation as often as I can to help me with focus, but I think in terms of stress relief, exercise is the best meditation.


    +1  Afro

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #75 - September 08, 2009, 07:32 AM


    I just found some of the comments seemed ill-informed. Kind of felt like what a fundie might say about evolution without really understanding it.




    Same. Its the dealing absolutes that does it, and ever so lofty 'I'm above the is debate'.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #76 - September 08, 2009, 07:36 AM

    I try practice Mushin meditation as often as I can to help me with focus, but I think in terms of stress relief, exercise is the best meditation.

    +1  Afro

    +2 - as well as being the most productive way to use that time

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #77 - September 08, 2009, 07:37 AM

    Hate to break it to you, but excercise isn't meditation, but definitely relaxes you.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #78 - September 08, 2009, 09:00 AM

    you're missed the context, its a positive non-spiritual subsititute

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #79 - September 08, 2009, 09:39 AM

    er...ok. What do you mean?Huh?

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #80 - September 08, 2009, 09:45 AM

    By definition meditation is spiritual and thus ineffective for non-believers like me.  Exercise for some is a better substitute than meditation and can be scientifically proven to have a physical & mental effect.  Another substitute would be mental relaxation techniques.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #81 - September 08, 2009, 09:52 AM

    hmmm, if you say so. Dunno bout 'by definition is spiritual', but whatever. You're the same as Hass I think, baby been chucked out with the bath water when you rejected Islam maybe.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #82 - September 08, 2009, 10:09 AM

    hmmm, if you say so. Dunno bout 'by definition is spiritual', but whatever.

    It has to be spiritual if done in accordance with the Buddhist definition.  However you are free to try it and see if it works for you.  Take your socks off, cross your legs, close your eyes, place your palms on your knees, and chant like a demonic monkey.

    Did it work for you?  

    Quote
    You're the same as Hass I think, baby been chucked out with the bath water when you rejected Islam maybe.


    Not really - I did not reject Islam, I rejected the whole concept of spirituality.  Islam was just collateral damage.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #83 - September 08, 2009, 10:45 AM

    No I'm not defending it, because i don't know. My point is that you are very dismissive of anything that doesn't fit your image of the kind of god you might believe in. I know there's a lot of bullshit out there, but you have to assume an awful lot to do that.


    I'm dismissive of the idea that handicaps are a result of being 'bad' in a previous life. That is the only issue I have taken objection to in this thread.

    I haven't thrown any baby out with any bath-water - and I have said many times that I do personally believe there is "something" - I just don't know what that "something" is.

    I'm not sure what you want me to say?

    If you mean do I feel a general sense of disillusion with religion - yes!

    Does that mean I think everything in all religions are bad - no!

    Does that mean I have closed my mind to the possibility of there being some spiritual truth out there that I am unaware of - no!

    But until I actually see something to believe in - then what exactly is it you want me to believe in?
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #84 - September 08, 2009, 11:22 AM

    Ooooh, touchy!

    Seem dismissive to me, not just about this issue, certain little niggly things halt you in your tracks quite easily when they don't fit in with your idea of God. Don't take things so personally.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #85 - September 08, 2009, 11:31 AM

    Ooooh, touchy!

    Seem dismissive to me, not just about this issue, certain little niggly things halt you in your tracks quite easily when they don't fit in with your idea of God. Don't take things so personally.


    Not being touchy - I have long known about this belief and always found it disgusting because it leads to people applying a moral judgement to an innocent child/adult who is already suffering enough without that.

    You are the one being touchy by reading into my post that I reject everything in Buddhism or spirituality or a quest for truth etc...



  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #86 - September 08, 2009, 11:56 AM

    When people do believe that it's their purpose to work and do good to improve their next life, it can be very beneficial to the individual and the society.

    I personally like Neitzche's idea that what if we each have to keep reliving our own lives over and over and over. Now that, if understood, could really make for a quick path to enlightenment. Of course it's not an empirical statement, only a thought experiment, like most of what Neitzsche said Wink But it does lead one to rethink what one is doing with his or her own life and if it were to be true that I have to keep reliving my this life then what do I need to change in it NOW.

    Interesting. i must make the effort to read Neitzsche sometime. I know he annoys theists so that is a point in his favour. Silly bastard definitely needed to lighten up a bit though. No point driving yourself mental over this stuff.

    Personally I wouldn't say either of those things to such a demon if one did show up. Some parts have been like one and some parts like the other. In general though there has been a quiet lust for the intensity of perception which makes it all more than worthwhile.


    It has to be spiritual if done in accordance with the Buddhist definition.  However you are free to try it and see if it works for you.  Take your socks off, cross your legs, close your eyes, place your palms on your knees, and chant like a demonic monkey.

    What does chanting like a demonic monkey have to do with anything?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #87 - September 08, 2009, 12:37 PM

    Since "spirituality" is being discussed (well worth watching imho, funny + to the point):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB_htqDCP-s&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Flibertarec.blogspot.com%2F2009_04_01_libertarec_archive.html&feature=player_embedded#t=135
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #88 - September 08, 2009, 01:07 PM

    That's great. Love the "sniper using bollocks for ammunition" line.  grin12

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #89 - September 08, 2009, 01:43 PM



    LOL... loved it - thanks!
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