Buddhism

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- Saif Rahman
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #90 - September 08, 2009, 03:10 PM

that was different - how did you come across it?

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- Jack Torrance
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #91 - September 08, 2009, 03:11 PM

Quote from: Kenan on September 08, 2009, 12:37 PM
Since "spirituality" is being discussed (well worth watching imho, funny + to the point):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB_htqDCP-s&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Flibertarec.blogspot.com%2F2009_04_01_libertarec_archive.html&feature=player_embedded#t=135

Thats really good, who is it?

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Re: Buddhism
Reply #92 - September 08, 2009, 03:30 PM

Quote from: IsLame on September 08, 2009, 03:10 PM
that was different - how did you come across it?

It was posted on a blog I frequent a while ago and it caught my attention.

Quote from: Jack Torrance on September 08, 2009, 03:11 PM
Thats really good, who is it?

Its an Aussie guy who does a sort of stand up musical comedy. Check out his website: http://www.timminchin.com/
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #93 - September 08, 2009, 03:37 PM

I've seen Tim MInchin on "Never Mind the Buzzcocks" and thought he sounded cool.
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #94 - September 09, 2009, 07:53 AM

Quote from: Hassan on September 08, 2009, 11:31 AM
Not being touchy - I have long known about this belief and always found it disgusting because it leads to people applying a moral judgement to an innocent child/adult who is already suffering enough without that.

You are the one being touchy by reading into my post that I reject everything in Buddhism or spirituality or a quest for truth etc...

My problem with your thinking is not that you like or dislike this idea or that, just that you have your own set idea of things, and if they dont fit, they are bullshit. You're not doing yourself any favours. If someone goes around commiting evil, like say kidnapping and raping teenage girls, and as a result, a black cloud follows them around and makes their life a misery, they end up on drugs, inject into their legs, lose some limbs - how does that you strike you, is that too cruel and injust? Or is it just that one thing follows another? If you can accept that, why do you find it so hard to accept any other form of self imposed karma? I know why it is, because in 'another life' that person may have no recollection of previous deeds so it's 'not fair'. Now, I', not assuming any of this to be true, its just an example, I don't know and wouldnt like to guess - you on the other hand, who spent so long in a glaringly obvious b/s religion, now has not a second to waste on anything that requires deep thought and a stretch of the imagination. It's like a knee jerk reaction to you now - well, thats how I see it. No doubt I'm totally wrong.

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Re: Buddhism
Reply #95 - September 09, 2009, 04:59 PM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on September 09, 2009, 07:53 AM
just that you have your own set idea of things, and if they dont fit, they are bullshit.

We are NOT talking about "things" we are talking about a specific belief.

What you call my "set idea of things" is my opinion that the belief that handicapped people are that way because they were bad in a previous life is a disgusting, cruel and illogical notion. (And as it happens I have not used the word bullshit.)

Yes that is my opinion. We all have opinions. What you seem to have a problem is that I don't agree with your opinion.

Quote from: Jack Torrance on September 09, 2009, 07:53 AM
You're not doing yourself any favours.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by this - please explain.

Quote from: Jack Torrance on September 09, 2009, 07:53 AM
If someone goes around commiting evil, like say kidnapping and raping teenage girls, and as a result, a black cloud follows them around and makes their life a misery, they end up on drugs, inject into their legs, lose some limbs - how does that you strike you, is that too cruel and injust?

There is a world of difference between punishing a rapist in his own life-time for a crime he knows he has committed and punishing a new born baby with a life-time of disability for a crime he has no knowledge or understanding of. There is no logical point to the second and it will bring nothing but misery upon misery and hurt all those around - particularly as some self-righteous pricks will wag their fingers and say 'well he must have been a rapist'.

Quote from: Jack Torrance on September 09, 2009, 07:53 AM
Now, I', not assuming any of this to be true, its just an example, I don't know and wouldnt like to guess - you on the other hand, who spent so long in a glaringly obvious b/s religion, now has not a second to waste on anything that requires deep thought and a stretch of the imagination.

No, I am giving my opinion - just as you are giving your opinion.

And I note you just called Islam "glaringly obvious bullshit" - and yet you have never studied Islam deeply and I'm quite sure our other brother would strenuously deny that Islam is "glaringly obviously bullshit" and would argue that those who thinks so have not studied it or understood it correctly and not used their imagination or wisdom to see the fine nuances and philosophical deeper meanings.

Now I don't have a problem with anyone calling Islam bullshit - or any religion they like - and I don't expect them to have studied for 30 years all the books of the scholars to make that opinion. Everyone can give their opinion - though of course that doesn't mean all opinions are equal - but they can give their opinion nevertheless.

But you seem to have a problem with people calling 'some' things bullshit. So I'd be interested to know how knowledgeable one must be to call something bullshit? On what basis you are happy to call Islam "glaringly obvious bullshit" when there are many perspectives you haven't explored - yet you have a problem with me calling this specific belief (and not the whole religion) - bullshit? (and btw I repeat - I didn't actually use the word bullshit.)
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #96 - September 10, 2009, 06:01 PM

Quote from: a.ghazali on September 07, 2009, 11:22 PM
Not that dangerous? Then how dangerous and in what way?

How from all that we've discussed or you know about reincarnation could you deduce that reincarnation could lead one to be a suicide bomber? Why would a concept that clearly expounds that you get in return the actions that you perform drive anyone to kill and maim others and yourself?

I didn't say exactly that. This is the text.

Quote from: brainyape
Jack, I am not saying reincarnation is false. But as of now, the assertion,"reincarnation is true" is false.

A Gahazali , I contend that if it's based on the idea of Karma, it mat not look that dangerous. But still it could be a motivation for suicide, if not sucide bombings.

I'm not saying these are definitely bound to happen, but has a small probability; just speculation:

- Suppose I lived a good life already, then instead of waiting for death, couldn't I die now for the next life?
- Suppose I lived an evil life, and I don't want a bad life in the next birth. So blow up the world. Well that may not work if life starts in another planet in some time of geological scale; Maybe you will be destined to live your life during the horrible stages of natural selection.

Quote from: a.ghazali
You?ve been making many such statements which I?ve asked for clarification but you have not answered them. For instance you?ve said:
- It can cause people to act in an insane way.
- It can result in people wanting to blow up the world
- fear of being born again as a beetle, guide our interpretations. Unwishful thinking could be equally dangerous as wishful thinking.

In all three cases I was referring to the same thing 'blowing up the world'. Just referred it using different words in differnt posts. I never said because of that reincarnation shouldn't be believed even if it could be perceived to be bad.

Quote from: a.ghazali
Actually recent polls in the US showed that 25% of adults believed in reincarnation. Over 30% in Russia, 22% in Western Europe and Eastern European states ranging from 12-44%. That's quite large percentages in counties that are considered predominantly Christian. Of course numbers don't make anything true. But when an idea is adopted freely, especially one that goes against the long term religious/cultural norms, there maybe some legitimacy to its claim.

But there are a lot of lapsed Christians too in these countires. It is quite likely that people emancipated from dogma think that the conscience would not cease to exist after death. If I'm correct, even some Greek philosphers believed in reincarnation. But this could be said to be intuitive and intuitions need not be correct.

"God is a geometer" - Plato

"God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #97 - September 12, 2009, 07:38 AM

Quote from: Hassan on September 09, 2009, 04:59 PM
So I'd be interested to know how knowledgeable one must be to call something bullshit? On what basis you are happy to call Islam "glaringly obvious bullshit" when there are many perspectives you haven't explored - yet you have a problem with me calling this specific belief (and not the whole religion) - bullshit? (and btw I repeat - I didn't actually use the word bullshit.)

Er, to me it is glaringly obvious, and i've had it rammed down by my neck for years, not least by you. I think I'm entitled to make a call on it. Unlike you and your '6 months' looking into Buddhism, where at the first sign of something you don't like, it's dismissed. Oh and what was the other great reason - too many trendy people into it? Please....

Oh, and at least it didnt take me 25 fucken years to suss Islam out.

The 'other brother', I'm not going to speak for, but I think he has a pretty healthy way of looking at Islam, tbh. And he gets on with his life in the meantime, he's not stuck on defending it, or attacking other peoples beliefs.

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Re: Buddhism
Reply #98 - September 12, 2009, 09:03 AM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on September 12, 2009, 07:38 AM
I'm entitled to make a call on it.

Your entitled to call the whole of Islam Bullshit - but I'm not entitled to call the specific belief that 'disabled were bad in a previous life', disgustingl.

Got it - thanks

Quote from: Jack Torrance on September 12, 2009, 07:38 AM
Oh, and at least it didnt take me 25 fucken years to suss Islam out... he has a pretty healthy way of looking at Islam... And he gets on with his life in the meantime, he's not stuck on defending it, or attacking other peoples beliefs.

Yes I'm obviously very stupid - have an unhealthy way of looking at things - and am stuck on attacking other people's beliefs.

I know your favourite subject is criticise Hass and you have successfully made me feel depressed, and bad about myself and everything I do many times.

But I thought you might actually accept that I had a perfect right to call this particular belief disgusting, cruel and illogical and that you might leave me alone.

My mistake
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #99 - September 12, 2009, 09:54 AM

Your entitled to call the whole of Islam Bullshit - but I'm not entitled to call the specific belief that 'disabled were bad in a previous life', disgustingl.

Got it - thanks

Yes, but you cal it b/s coz you dont like the sound of it, pure and simple. That is what your stance is, if it doesnt fit with you. I call Islam b/s because is seems to me, as mentioned in all your videos, it doesn't stack up...at all. The handicapped thing, you find nasty, but theres an element of it that could be so. There is none of that element in Islam - or do you disagree?

And thanks for that - yes I'm obviously very stupid and and have an unhealthy way of looking at things and am stuck on attacking other people's beliefs.

Yes, you big baby, you can act all indignant now if you like.

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Re: Buddhism
Reply #100 - September 12, 2009, 11:55 AM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on September 12, 2009, 09:54 AM
Yes, but you cal it b/s coz you dont like the sound of it, pure and simple. That is what your stance is, if it doesnt fit with you. I call Islam b/s because is seems to me, as mentioned in all your videos, it doesn't stack up...at all. The handicapped thing, you find nasty, but theres an element of it that could be so. There is none of that element in Islam - or do you disagree?

I disagree.

What you consider to have "an element of truth" and what you consider to be "obvious bullshit" is a matter of opinion. It's subjective and depends on your perspective and understanding.

There are many Muslims who would say - for example - that Hell is a metaphor for the pain we suffer for hurting others and will not be forever and they know what they did and it only punishes them - whereas the belief that 'disabled people were sinful in another life' is illogical and cruel because they don't know what they have done and punishes their family and friends for no apparent purpose.

Personally I reject both beliefs - Hell and punishing people by making them suffer a life-time of disability without knowing why.

I reject the latter because it is cruel and illogical and leads to moral judgments being applied to people who are already suffering enough - not to mention there is no objective evidence to indicate that any of it is true.

That is my opinion. Your opinion is different - that's fine, but you have spent all this time telling me I don't have good reason for my opinion.

Sorry, but I have good reason - I am not being closed minded - I am not letting myself down and I really don't understand why you seem to need to keep having a go at me and making hurtful digs at me ( Oh, and at least it didnt take me 25 fucken years to suss Islam out) for doing nothing more than expressing a perfectly reasonable opinion.
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #101 - September 12, 2009, 12:06 PM

And I have wasted enough time typing responses to this - I have explained why I reject this particular belief - you can accept that or not - but I certainly don't want to hear any more snide remarks from you, so I shall not be responding to this anymore.

Thanks.
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #102 - September 12, 2009, 12:17 PM

Quote from: Hassan on September 12, 2009, 11:55 AM
I disagree.

What you consider to have "an element of truth" and what you consider to be "obvious bullshit" is a matter of opinion. It's subjective and depends on your perspective and understanding.

Rubbish - not when the koran is obviously a fake, er, which you actually agree with btw. You are avoiding my point. Your lack of understanding of this, takes away. big time, your dismissal of Islam and makes you look a bit silly. You spent 25 years to get round to seeing it for what it is, and now, because of that, as far as you seem to be concerned, all religions and beliefs must be rubbished just coz you got fooled once. You may be a voice of authority on Islam, but as far as it goes, yet you appear to think you are now an expert on all matters 'divine' - ie; it's all crap.

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Re: Buddhism
Reply #103 - September 12, 2009, 12:19 PM

Quote from: Hassan on September 12, 2009, 12:06 PM
And I have wasted enough time typing responses to this - I have explained why I reject this particular belief - you can accept that or not - but I certainly don't want to hear any more snide remarks from you, so I shall not be responding to this anymore.

Thanks.

Finally, you argue just like a religionist. (adopts lofty tone, and turns nose up)- 'So I shall not be discussing, blah blah blah with you...' Fake hurt and indignation. What a load of crap.

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Re: Buddhism
Reply #104 - September 12, 2009, 12:39 PM

You seem to be missing a few points yourself, Jack. For a start it is easy to argue against the idea of karma. Think about it. We know humans evolved from other life forms. We know that the simpler the life form the less "consciousness" (in the sense of capacity for reflection and choice) they have.

If good karma comes from being "good" and bad karma comes from being "bad" how, pray tell, did the process start? You can't have good and evil blue-green algae. You can't have stromatolites being the equivalent of Mordor and Gondor FFS. So, you are left with an arbitrary starting point for the whole thing. Where do you want to draw the line?

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Re: Buddhism
Reply #105 - September 12, 2009, 01:13 PM

We all reincarnated from another planet that was burned out because of its sun becoming a red giant, the bad ones came along first to become the lower life froms, and the better ones remained in queue for the good lives humans or other happy animals live later on

If there are multiple planets capable of supporting life, then we could eliminate the queue too.

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"God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #106 - September 12, 2009, 02:46 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on September 12, 2009, 12:39 PM
You seem to be missing a few points yourself, Jack. For a start it is easy to argue against the idea of karma. Think about it. We know humans evolved from other life forms. We know that the simpler the life form the less "consciousness" (in the sense of capacity for reflection and choice) they have.

If good karma comes from being "good" and bad karma comes from being "bad" how, pray tell, did the process start? You can't have good and evil blue-green algae. You can't have stromatolites being the equivalent of Mordor and Gondor FFS. So, you are left with an arbitrary starting point for the whole thing. Where do you want to draw the line?

I'm not saying it isn't easy to argue against. Everything can be argued against, it's why one would bother assuming certainties when there are none. There's a mass of evidence to support the fact that Islam was an invention, fair enough, you can make an excellent guess that its b/s - but, and it's not just on this point of handicapped reincarnates, my learned friend, seems to be applying this revelation to include anything he doesn't think is very nice of Mr God.

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Re: Buddhism
Reply #107 - September 12, 2009, 06:31 PM

Quote from: a.ghazali on September 07, 2009, 09:22 PM
The thing is, life has its ups and downs. And in bad times the religious institutions have the structure to support individual/families in a way the non-religious do not have. Also the need of most humans to have some figure to depend on, a god character they can put hope in.

Which is why a circle of like minded individuals on forums like these are a essential.

Excellent point. This is something that I've never heard so far from Richard Dawkins and his gang when they criticise religion.

"God is a geometer" - Plato

"God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #108 - September 12, 2009, 08:57 PM

I have studied buddhism and other indian guru type religions.

The view most of you seem to be taking is kind of wrong when it comes to the 'god' concept and Karma in buddhism - i think this comes from your 'personal god' thinking in your islmic teachings.

The concept of 'god' in buddhism is that god is the source of all that is. God isnt and 'intelligent' designer - god is a kind of pure beginningless realm of oneness and just 'potential'. The situation we are in now is a part of this potential and our current consiousness has evolved to our current state of affairs from this potential. As we become attached to the illusions of the physical realm - greed, hate and delusion blind our true mind potential for peace and higher conciousness.

So God has nothing to do with it - karma isnt a judgement or law, everyting is a knockon effect that is all from the source or 'god'. The rebirth is not about your soul passing from one to the next - there is no soul - just universal consiousness derived from the 'god' or 'source' - but it takes meditation over time to dust away the illuion of seperation and ego and the build up of the deception of a seperate 'self' to break free from this lower realm to achive reunion/nirvana with your true potential.

Buddhism sees that the rise of consiousness or sentience is the ground of all being in our realm - or rather our universe. everything is in the 'mind'.

Basically on the quantum level their is a break down of the wave function once something concious observes it which creates the universe (according to many quantum physics scientists this is the case).

Personally i have taken up meditation again - i have been doing a lot of research about it and also the liks with the drug LSD and the same and similar effects deep mediation as in altering the mind to different levels of consiousness and the way reality is 'seen'.

But i dont call muself a buddhist - i think it can lead to more problems and attachemnt to a label and dogma.
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #109 - September 13, 2009, 02:31 AM

Fading....I don't know if anyone has posted this link or not. I have little patience these days, so I didn't look.

I have used this as a resource for several years now. http://www.dharmanet.org/learning.htm

Peace and chicken grease...

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I remain.
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #110 - September 13, 2009, 06:36 AM

Quote
The concept of 'god' in buddhism is that god is the source of all that is. God isnt and 'intelligent' designer - god is a kind of pure beginningless realm of oneness and just 'potential'.

Would something like pantheism be similar?
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #111 - September 13, 2009, 07:13 AM

Good post Glen. Meditation, done properly, is amazing, and the benefits. A lot of people get put off coz they sit down for a few minutes and 'can't do it', or 'can't find the time'..there's alway time. It's an ongoing practise, no quick fix.

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Re: Buddhism
Reply #112 - September 13, 2009, 08:05 AM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on September 13, 2009, 06:36 AM
Would something like pantheism be similar?

Yes indeed similar.

The concept of god is more just a state of being.

Some religions have an idea that their is a creator god and his heaven - but a very simple way to put it in buddhist terms is heaven is god.

However thats not to confuse liberation from rebirth with rebirth in a heaven realm.

Buddhists believe their are six mental realms of existance in which a mind can become concious depending on past mental karmic seeds or actions done. The hell realms, the animal realms, the human realm, and the heaven/godlike realms.

however, just like the human realm, all of these states of being are imperminent, hence if one is born in the hell realm you wont stay their forever.

Some buddhist traditions believe their to be more realms - that the universe and other universes are teeming with sentient life in which one could be reborn.

Like i said - many materialist western views find all this stuff hard to believe - but many of the old indian spititual practices which basically say all our percieved reality is based in conciousness - therefore the mind can go to many a place and many a realm.

Many Quantum mechanics scientists are interested in this idea today - some are still critical as science has almost become dogmatic like the church was and resistent to any change from materialist science. It will be interesting to see the developments of quantum physics over the next few decades anyway.
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #113 - September 18, 2009, 09:09 PM

Another good video, no complaints here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnY050r025I

"God is a geometer" - Plato

"God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #114 - September 19, 2009, 02:08 AM

Concept of Karma and reincarnation does not appeal to me. In fact I think its nonsense really. I actually do not see the point. I'm spiritual to the point where I believe in love and sometimes stand in awe when I see beautiful things however meditation seems just like another waste of time.

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Re: Buddhism
Reply #115 - September 19, 2009, 09:10 AM

As someone who meditates regualrly, to me, you sound absurd. I can only assume you never practised correctly, if at all. It would be impossible to anyone that meditates properly, to say what you just said, akin to saying 'Urgh, I hate fillet steak!' when the fact is, you never cooked it first.

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Re: Buddhism
Reply #116 - September 19, 2009, 09:22 AM

Sorry Jack, but your post reminds me of a muslim coming back with the retort "you have failed to understand Islam. Come back after you have practised it with conviction and you will appreciate it"

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Re: Buddhism
Reply #117 - September 19, 2009, 09:56 AM

meditation is a physical and mental thing, works on both levels, anyone can do it, its not a case of believing in a myth. Nothing to do with having to have faith (and everything to do with a restless, out of control mind), hence your analogy is very wrong, and again, shows that you've never successfully practised, which is a shame, coz it is avaliable to all. Again, your reply - baby, bath-water.

Also Islame, it's a silly comparison in other ways, I mean, if I said to you - 'To appreciate Shakespeare fully, you must read the texts, and study carefully' - is that like islam too? By your reactionary reasoning, yes.

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Re: Buddhism
Reply #118 - September 19, 2009, 10:07 AM

Quote from: Heyjustlooking on September 19, 2009, 02:08 AM
.. meditation seems just like another waste of time.

I am extremely sceptical about karma, reincarnation or any other spiritual stuff but I think that meditation is a bit different. I have a friend that regularly meditates and she is basically an atheist.
Apparently the very "mechanics" of meditation tranquil and compose her, a sort of autogenic training I suppose.
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Re: Buddhism
Reply #119 - September 19, 2009, 10:55 AM

Yes, I don't see how anyone can really slag it off, except for those that don't have the patience and have never stuck at it. I mean, who doesn't want to master the mind?

Ha Ha.
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