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 Topic: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?

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  • Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     OP - September 16, 2009, 12:20 PM

    Quote
    Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?

    The most effective opposition comes when people refuse to be intimidated

    Wednesday, 16 September 2009

    There's something touchingly innocent about the argument put forward by many people that the BNP should be allowed space in the mainstream media as this will "expose their ignorant ideas". Because history doesn't necessarily prove this to be the case. I don't suppose that, in 1941, many people thought: "You see, this is all working to plan. Now he's invaded Russia everyone will see just what an idiot this Hitler really is."

    The arguments of the far-right groups are already obviously ridiculous. The latest slogan they march under is "Stop the Islamification of England". But how many people have had their lives Islamified against their will? Is there a single tea shop owner in Dorset who has to tell her customers: "Sorry dear, we're not allowed to serve a scone until after dark as it's Ramadan." Do radio stations have to start the day: "Allaaaaah ? ah-aaaah allaaaaaah. Good morning, this is BBC Radio Sussex calling you to prayer."
    Related articles

        * Labour minister to face Griffin in TV debate

    The most important government policy in recent years was probably the decision to go to war in Iraq, a move vehemently opposed by almost every Muslim in the country. But the BNP would presumably say: "That proves it ? they deliberately ignored the Muslims when they SHOULD be ignoring the BRITISH people."

    The trouble is, the BNP don't aim to attract support by winning debates, they want to spread fear and then pose as the respectable antidote. The other trouble is they do this because, in my view, they're fascists, with some of their leadership having a record of supporting Hitler. Leading member Richard Edmonds published "Holocaust News", which claimed the Holocaust was an "evil hoax". The publicity manager Mark Collett fudged the Hitler issue when he said: "Hitler will live forever." Co-founder of the party, the late John Tyndall, managed to surpass that with "Mein Kampf is my Bible". So the party that appoints itself as the barrier to Britain being taken over by a foreign religion was set up by someone who thought the Bible should be German.

    And Nick Griffin wrote a pamphlet in 1997 called "The Mind-Benders", in which he said of the Holocaust: "The 'extermination' tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda and witch-hysteria."

    Griffin usually dismisses these examples by putting them down to excitable youth. Because we've all got embarrassing snippets from our teenage days, so it hardly matters which of us wore crazy kipper ties and which wrote pamphlets denying the Holocaust, and the fact that Griffin wrote that when he was 38 only shows how young and full of life he is.

    But around 10 years ago the BNP hit a snag, realising that their approach was holding them back. Maybe they had a focus group, with someone reporting that, "OK, if I can share my feedback, some of the policies, such as distrust of Europe, supporting British farmers, I'm hearing lots of positive energy. But, and don't take this the wrong way, the praising Hitler angle is proving mostly negative, I'm afraid."

    So Griffin set about making them appear respectable. They would deny they were fascist, and claim to be an upstanding legitimate party. This creates another problem with them in the media, as their leaders are determined to conceal what I believe is their real mission, which isn't just to campaign in elections but to build a force of street-fighters. After a BNP member was elected in 1993 Griffin said: "The electors of Millwall did not back a post-modernist Rightist party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan 'Defend Rights for Whites', with well directed boots and fists."

    At which point if you thought: "Aha, the trick now is to interview him and expose how he's misunderstood post-modernism. Then the electors of Millwall will see how ridiculous he is," you were probably missing the point.

    So the most effective opposition comes when communities refuse to be intimidated. Last Friday, when the English Defence League announced a protest against "Islamification" outside a mosque in Harrow, around 2,000 people stood in their way. The "protest" vanished, and the local population has apparently tingled with excitement ever since. As was the case in the 1930s and 1970s, events such as this are the most practical barriers against the far right.

    The idea of inviting them into the mainstream in order to expose them is well-meaning, but I doubt whether Griffin thinks: "We can cope with united communities opposing us ? but the perfect cutting remark on Newsnight and we're stuffed."


    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #1 - September 16, 2009, 01:41 PM

     Afro good article.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #2 - September 16, 2009, 02:17 PM

    Critically examining Islam, and NOT supporting Saudi Arabia, is a better way of 'defeating Islamism' than mindless scaremongering, bigotry, fascism, and ignorance in the name of "Western freedom and civilisation".

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #3 - September 16, 2009, 02:34 PM

    Critically examining Islam, and NOT supporting Saudi Arabia, is a better way of 'defeating Islamism' than mindless scaremongering, bigotry, fascism, and ignorance in the name of "Western freedom and civilisation".


    Exactly

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #4 - September 17, 2009, 01:32 PM

    I suspect that low-level islamification is going on. My husband flies in and out of Luton airport quite a lot, and he always relied on being able to get a bacon sandwich there. Suddenly, without saying anything, they stopped serving bacon. Since a lot of the staff are Muslim, that was probably the reason. However, in this case, bacon was eventually restored, so now he can get his sandwich again.

    This is pretty trivial, but the issue of halal meat isn't. Britain has quite strong laws on humane slaughter of food animals, but, for reasons I have never understood, they can be bypassed for Jews and Muslims for religious reasons. As a result, meat in hospitals, schools and prisons is increasingly slaughtered according to religious precepts rather than according to the basic law of humane slaughter. And if you are neither Jewish nor Mulsim and just ask for beef, say, you won't be told that it has been slaughered in this way.

    It doesn't affect me directly, because I am a veggie, but I don't agree with the mentality that lets religion trump everything else.

    Free speech is the source of most other freedoms
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #5 - September 17, 2009, 01:48 PM

    DMB, it's the same with primary schools down where my family live, no primary school serves pork anymore even though they are multicultural schools.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #6 - September 17, 2009, 02:25 PM

    Critically examining Islam, and NOT supporting Saudi Arabia, is a better way of 'defeating Islamism' than mindless scaremongering, bigotry, fascism, and ignorance in the name of "Western freedom and civilisation".


    +100  Afro
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #7 - September 17, 2009, 03:21 PM

    Critically examining Islam, and NOT supporting Saudi Arabia, is a better way of 'defeating Islamism' than mindless scaremongering, bigotry, fascism, and ignorance in the name of "Western freedom and civilisation".



    That this really does need to be said is the most telling thing about it.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #8 - September 17, 2009, 03:25 PM

    Excellent article - and  'Spot on' to what Atheist.pk said  Afro
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #9 - September 17, 2009, 11:13 PM

     people in britain might not be 'islamified' against their will , but some of them are being islamified without their knowledege or proper consent  - children .I regularly see little girls in my area , some of them nowhere near puberty , in hijabs etc. , and I know that one or two of my neighbours actually discourage their kids from playing with non muslim children .
       And I agree with DMB & Berberella about the constant encroachments - Camden council now uses only halal meat for it's school dinners , my muslim colleagues insist on going off to prey , regardless of how busy we are - nobody else would get away with that . And I think it's understandable that people are concerned about big mosques appearing in their neighbourhoods - mosques do change the character of a neighbourhood .  My local mosque in east London tried to prevent the Genesis cinema from opening .I recently went to visit relatives in edinburgh , at one point I nipped out to get a couple of bottles and was amazed to find the corner shop that's been there for years has stopped selling alcohol . Went down the road , same thing , I had to walk quite a long way to get what i wanted . I asked my brother  about it he said all the local shops had stopped selling booze since the new mosque opened .One of the shopkeepers told him he wasn't happy about it as he's lost all his old customers , but he felt he had no choice . Some of you might think this sounds trivial , but it's the kind of thing that interferes with people's lives and causes resentment .

      and ,more seriously ,there is the increasing self censorship going on in our media , the response to the Danish cartoons does not bode well for a free press
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #10 - September 17, 2009, 11:42 PM

    Camden council now uses only halal meat for it's school dinners

     mysmilie_977 why? what is the % muslims in camden?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #11 - September 18, 2009, 12:07 AM

    And I agree with DMB & Berberella about the constant encroachments - Camden council now uses only halal meat for it's school dinners


    The horror! I mean, the whole no pork thing is kind of annoying, but why would anyone care if the tasteless chicken or beef the kids are given at school is halal or not, unless you're an animal rights weirdo (in which case you'd probably be raising your kids to be veggies anyways)? In my opinion, for chicken and for beef cold cuts, halal and kosher meat tends to be of better quality than your standard non-halal/kosher meat, so, if anything, I'd regard that kind of "Islamification" as a good thing.

    Quote
    my muslim colleagues insist on going off to prey,


    Prey on what? Small animals? Maybe the blood of Christian children?

    Quote
    regardless of how busy we are - nobody else would get away with that .


    You're a union activist, right? Well, why don't you fight for your coworkers of other faiths to have the right to pray during the workday if they feel their religion compels them to, rather than turning against your union brothers and sisters because they happen to be practicing Muslims?

    Quote
    And I think it's understandable that people are concerned about big mosques appearing in their neighbourhoods - mosques do change the character of a neighbourhood . 


    And what would be your solution to this?

    Quote
    I recently went to visit relatives in edinburgh , at one point I nipped out to get a couple of bottles and was amazed to find the corner shop that's been there for years has stopped selling alcohol . Went down the road , same thing , I had to walk quite a long way to get what i wanted . I asked my brother  about it he said all the local shops had stopped selling booze since the new mosque opened .One of the shopkeepers told him he wasn't happy about it as he's lost all his old customers , but he felt he had no choice . Some of you might think this sounds trivial , but it's the kind of thing that interferes with people's lives and causes resentment .


    As a hard drinker myself I would find this kind of situation extremely annoying and frustrating, but neighborhoods change, economically and culturally, in ways the old residents often don't like. What's to be done? Have the government impose racial, cultural and religious segregation laws? Discriminate against Muslims who want to have a mosque in the neighborhood they live in?

    Quote
    and ,more seriously ,there is the increasing self censorship going on in our media , the response to the Danish cartoons does not bode well for a free press


    The fact that Brits are "politically-correct" wusses has very little to do with Islam.

    One last question, and be honest-- are you a BNP voter?

    fuck you
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #12 - September 18, 2009, 07:07 AM

    people in britain might not be 'islamified' against their will , but some of them are being islamified without their knowledege or proper consent  - children .I regularly see little girls in my area , some of them nowhere near puberty , in hijabs etc. , and I know that one or two of my neighbours actually discourage their kids from playing with non muslim children .
       And I agree with DMB & Berberella about the constant encroachments - Camden council now uses only halal meat for it's school dinners , my muslim colleagues insist on going off to prey , regardless of how busy we are - nobody else would get away with that . And I think it's understandable that people are concerned about big mosques appearing in their neighbourhoods - mosques do change the character of a neighbourhood .  My local mosque in east London tried to prevent the Genesis cinema from opening .I recently went to visit relatives in edinburgh , at one point I nipped out to get a couple of bottles and was amazed to find the corner shop that's been there for years has stopped selling alcohol . Went down the road , same thing , I had to walk quite a long way to get what i wanted . I asked my brother  about it he said all the local shops had stopped selling booze since the new mosque opened .One of the shopkeepers told him he wasn't happy about it as he's lost all his old customers , but he felt he had no choice . Some of you might think this sounds trivial , but it's the kind of thing that interferes with people's lives and causes resentment .

      and ,more seriously ,there is the increasing self censorship going on in our media , the response to the Danish cartoons does not bode well for a free press


    Oh I don't think it's trivial at all, schools should have simply started to serve halal CHOICES for those who are muslim and continued to offer non hala.pork choices to those who aren't.

    Instead they have stopped serving them altogether, I'm sorry but I think this removes our freedom of choice simply to respect the faith of a faith that does not respect us.

    It's wrong that in a non muslim country you find local shops have to stop serving alcohol to appease muslim sentiments.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #13 - September 18, 2009, 11:29 AM

    In my opinion, for chicken and for beef cold cuts, halal and kosher meat tends to be of better quality than your standard non-halal/kosher meat, so, if anything, I'd regard that kind of "Islamification" as a good thing.

    As I mentioned in another thread, that's bullshit.

    Can you explain how halal meat is of better quality?

    How does reciting "Bismillah" when you slit the animals throat improve the quality of meat?
    How does the quality of meat improve if the person slaughtering it is a Muslim (as opposed to a non-Muslim)?
    How does a straight slit to the throat as opposed to stunning-followed by a slit to the throat improve the quality of meat?

    If you, as a non-Muslim, think that this "Islamification" is a good thing then you're bonkers.

    Only a Muslim should consider the growth of halal meat in our society as a good thing because it conforms to their beliefs.  Why the hell would this matter to you?  Unless you're a closet Muslim of course.

    You should be advocating the things which really DO, de facto improve the quality of meat, like proper animal care and welfare prior to slaughter.

    .
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #14 - September 18, 2009, 11:33 AM

    100% agreed with Shahid.

    And if you've ever been within 5 miles of an Islamic slaughterhouse you can tell that the conditions are no better-in fact often worse (to keep prices low) than that of a non-halal slaughterhouse.

    It's just psychological bullshit that makes Muslims feel better about the need to have to eat halal meat-this way, at least it's for some concrete and real purpose.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #15 - September 18, 2009, 12:12 PM

    It's probably because whenever you eat halal, it's usually a tasty tandoori or jalfrezi or karahi or tikka masala... but whenever you eat non-halal, it's a boring lemon marinated chicken.

    And from this you conclude that... "Hey, this halal chicken tastes great!  I'm so glad they said "Bismillah" before they slaughtered it"  Roll Eyes

    Seriously though, it's all psychological.  It's all to do with with the way it's cooked or other ulterior reasons.  NOT the fact that it's "halal".

    .
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #16 - September 18, 2009, 12:14 PM

    Also, I wouldn't feel right if I didn't bring this up.

    Qman, it's completely unfair of you to associate Aife with the BNP simply because she brought up her own concerns. This is a bully tactic that shouldn't be used in fair discussion.

    I can see that you don't agree with her and that's more than fair enough, and you can do all you want to argue, but the last bit was a completely snide remark. If someone had done that to you with your long comments and then at the end associated you with Stalinism or Leninism you would go beserk.

    It's not that I agree or disagree with her on this issue or any other or really in general, but I can vouch for her and say she is certainly not that kind of person-looking at her general posts and tone.

    It's not just that though, you've deployed this special shield that you often do when you feel a non-Muslim (and non-ex Muslim) overly critisizes something to do with Islam or Muslims in the West-you then dissect every remark and question every sentiment that they express and accuse them of some sort of ulterior motive. Now, sometimes you're right, but this time you are jumping the gun-as I said earlier, you really wouldn't appreciate that if I did (and I have in the past) done this and then ended up calling you a Communist or Stalinist or whatever.

    Of course, I'm not looking to argue with you really just for the sake of it or to denounce you-but I really see this tactic as unacceptable.

    And before you start with: "it was just an innocent question..." please spare me, if it would have been someone agreeing with you you wouldn't have asked this "innocent question".

    We should assume the best in people rather than the worst.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #17 - September 18, 2009, 12:16 PM

    Good point Shahid-for a fair comparison I often go to one of those Halal fried chicken greasy chicken joints in London followed by a non-halal equivalent (never a chain though)

    You know the ones-where the hygeine is often fairly poor and the prices are low-I usually find that the meat tastes indistinguishable and any  other differences can usually be explained by other factors.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #18 - September 18, 2009, 12:19 PM

    The interesting thing is that quite a long time ago I read that an international gathering of religious scholars in Saudi in 1988 agreed that it was OK to pre-stun animals before killing them. I don't mind how they are killed, as long as it is done humanely and pre-stunning should be the minimum.

    Free speech is the source of most other freedoms
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #19 - September 18, 2009, 12:37 PM

    @ Shahid Raza--

    Why the fuck do you care so much what my subjective opinion of halal/kosher meats vs. non-halal/kosher meats is? A kosher hot dog to me tends to taste better than a non-kosher all-beef hot dog. The fried chicken that I've had that's halal has tended to be better than the non-halal stuff, or when I'm using the meat to cook my own meals (comparing apples to apples, not your ridiculous example of comparing South Asian cuisine to lame-ass British food, making me into some kind of idiot who can't wrap his head around the idea of different seasonings and cooking methods). Now you can jump down my throat all day about how my preferences make no sense, that it's all in my crazy mind and I have an undiscerning palate, but my opinion is going to remain the same. Why the fuck do you care?

    @ HenriMonier--

    An "innocent question"? No. A genuine question? Yes. It's not a rhetorical question-- I really want to know the answer and whatever answer she gives, I'll take at face value.

    As to the rest-- if someone is complaining about shit, I think it's completely fair to ask what they think the solution is and point out some of the most obvious answers. I also think it's fair that if someone thinks of themselves as a "trade unionist" to point out the fact they are attacking their fellow workers for taking time off to practice their religion, and they should be fighting for time off for their union brothers and sisters' religious observances, not bitching about it. As to the latter, that's a union thing more than a religious thing.

    fuck you
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #20 - September 18, 2009, 12:48 PM

    Aife already said in another thread that she votes for Arthur Scargill's party, which makes her old school Labour....

    Quote from: aife
    I voted . I was thinking about voting Green but then I saw Arthur Scargill's name on the ballot paper and I got all sentimental.... polling station didn't look very busy though.


    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5444.msg142375#msg142375


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #21 - September 18, 2009, 12:49 PM

    I also think it's fair that if someone thinks of themselves as a "trade unionist" to point out the fact they are attacking their fellow workers for taking time off to practice their religion, and they should be fighting for time off for their union brothers and sisters' religious observances, not bitching about it. As to the latter, that's a union thing more than a religious thing.


    The above is only true if you think it is the role of trade unions to enable people to bring the practice of their religion into the workplace. I for one do not think this is the case. I think there is a very good argument for ensuring that Religion stays WELL out of the workplace.

    Trade unions have more pressing things to worry about.
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #22 - September 18, 2009, 12:51 PM

    Agreed. Also if they want more time off work for praying they should either get less money or make the time up later. That's fair on the other workers.

    Oh and the reason for giving a rat's about halal slaughter is that it's less humane than standard slaughtering methods.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #23 - September 18, 2009, 12:55 PM

    ++ part 2 ^^^^
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #24 - September 18, 2009, 01:05 PM

    The above is only true if you think it is the role of trade unions to enable people to bring the practice of their religion into the workplace. I for one do not think this is the case. I think there is a very good argument for ensuring that Religion stays WELL out of the workplace.

    Trade unions have more pressing things to worry about.


    How is giving people time off to go pray "bringing religion into the workplace"? I guess I should go around negotiating Christmas as a paid holiday out of our union contracts in the name of secularism, huh?

    And yes, unions have bigger things to worry about, which makes a union activist's concern with her union brothers and sisters taking time off for religious observance even more ridiculous.

    Agreed. Also if they want more time off work for praying they should either get less money or make the time up later.


    That's management's role, not the union's.

    Quote
    That's fair on the other workers.


    How is reducing the time off for a certain group of workers "fair" by the standards of basic union principles? If people think it's not fair that some workers get more paid breaks than others, then the solution, from the union's standpoint, is to get more paid breaks for everyone, not take management's line and bring down the standards of the first group of workers in the interests of "fairness"

    Quote
    Oh and the reason for giving a rat's about halal slaughter is that it's less humane than standard slaughtering methods.


    I'm unsympathetic to such concerns. It's not like the halal slaughterhouses are going out of their way to make conditions inhumane. Exsanguination may not be as humane as a captive bolt gun, but it still kills the animal pretty damn quick, and it's not nearly as bad as some folks seem to think it is. Anyway, most of the people who are really concerned about this kind of stuff are veggies anyways, so it seems like a disingenuous argument.

    fuck you
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #25 - September 18, 2009, 01:23 PM

    How is giving people time off to go pray "bringing religion into the workplace"? I guess I should go around negotiating Christmas as a paid holiday out of our union contracts in the name of secularism, huh?

    ---

    How is reducing the time off for a certain group of workers "fair" by the standards of basic union principles? If people think it's not fair that some workers get more paid breaks than others, then the solution, from the union's standpoint, is to get more paid breaks for everyone, not take management's line and bring down the standards of the first group of workers in the interests of "fairness"

    ---



    One practical argument is that it affects the situation of the co-workers if several leave together for prayers. Imagine half of the boxes at the post office closing because of prayer time when there are lots of people waiting. Not practical.

    But the main argument against it remains: It brings the potential of religious conflict into the workplace. I think we are all aware how flammable religious sentiments are. In all places I have worked there have been two big no-nos: NO POLITICS and NO RELIGION. I for one think these no-nos are a very good idea. In a workplace we are professionals. Outside the workplace, well anything goes.
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #26 - September 18, 2009, 01:30 PM

    How is giving people time off to go pray "bringing religion into the workplace"?

    Umm, gee. I dunno. Maybe because it involves making special exemptions in the workplace for religious stuff? Just a thought.   Tongue


    Quote
    And yes, unions have bigger things to worry about, which makes a union activist's concern with her union brothers and sisters taking time off for religious observance even more ridiculous.

    Not really, because the rest of her union brothers and sisters have to carry the extra load while these guys are off praying. She mentioned that.

    Quote
    That's management's role, not the union's.

    I didn't say it wasn't. I just said it would be fair on the other workers.


    Quote
    How is reducing the time off for a certain group of workers "fair" by the standards of basic union principles? If people think it's not fair that some workers get more paid breaks than others, then the solution, from the union's standpoint, is to get more paid breaks for everyone, not take management's line and bring down the standards of the first group of workers in the interests of "fairness"

    It's fair because that way they end up doing the same amount of work for the same money as the other workers. That's why.


    Quote
    I'm unsympathetic to such concerns. It's not like the halal slaughterhouses are going out of their way to make conditions inhumane. Exsanguination may not be as humane as a captive bolt gun, but it still kills the animal pretty damn quick, and it's not nearly as bad as some folks seem to think it is. Anyway, most of the people who are really concerned about this kind of stuff are veggies anyways, so it seems like a disingenuous argument.

    well I'm not a veggie and I give a fuck.  bunny

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #27 - September 18, 2009, 01:31 PM

    Quote
    I guess I should go around negotiating Christmas as a paid holiday out of our union contracts in the name of secularism, huh?


    You most certainly should.  I don't want to have to prove that I believe in Jesus and the three wise men, etc  before I get Christmas Day off work.  

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #28 - September 18, 2009, 01:52 PM

    One practical argument is that it affects the situation of the co-workers if several leave together for prayers. Imagine half of the boxes at the post office closing because of prayer time when there are lots of people waiting. Not practical.


    Not every workplace is structured like a post office-- most workplaces can and do schedule work to accommodate for common break times. Even at a post office, creative scheduling and staffing could solve the problem.

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    But the main argument against it remains: It brings the potential of religious conflict into the workplace.


    So does denying people breaks to take prayers.

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    I think we are all aware how flammable religious sentiments are. In all places I have worked there have been two big no-nos: NO POLITICS and NO RELIGION. I for one think these no-nos are a very good idea. In a workplace we are professionals. Outside the workplace, well anything goes.


    Fine, then give everyone the same paid break time as the Muslims, which is what I've been suggesting is the proper union position to take. The non-Muslim workers will be lovin their Muslim co-workers then.

    Umm, gee. I dunno. Maybe because it involves making special exemptions in the workplace for religious stuff? Just a thought.   Tongue


    Again, you extend the break privileges to everyone and no "special exemptions" are necessary. Just like I get Christmas off even though I'm an atheist.

    Quote
    Not really, because the rest of her union brothers and sisters have to carry the extra load while these guys are off praying. She mentioned that.


    I actually don't recall her mentioning that, but again, and I hate to sound like a broken record here, that's why the union should fight to equalize the benefits on the basis of extending the benefits to all workers, rather than taking the benefits away from those who already have them.

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    It's fair because that way they end up doing the same amount of work for the same money as the other workers. That's why.


    See above and my previous post you just responded to.

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    well I'm not a veggie and I give a fuck.


    I said most, not all, and I betcha that the vast majority of people who are actively campaigning against halal slaughter, not just talking about it on this message board, are veggies. 

    Quote
    bunny


    Mmmmm...rabbit...yum.

    You most certainly should.  I don't want to have to prove that I believe in Jesus and the three wise men, etc  before I get Christmas Day off work. 


    See my response to Os above.

    fuck you
  • Re: Mark Steel: So has anyone really been 'Islamified' against their will?
     Reply #29 - September 18, 2009, 01:58 PM

    Quote
    Again, you extend the break privileges to everyone and no "special exemptions" are necessary. Just like I get Christmas off even though I'm an atheist.


    That is the secular view point, but I doubt it would run in Aife's neck of the woods.  The borough she lives in is a hot contender for the title of Most Corrupt Council in the UK, if you google up Private Eye magazine and look at their Rotten Boroughs page you'll see the relevance to Aife's complaints. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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