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 Topic: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!

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  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     OP - September 17, 2009, 07:29 PM

    Ashhado Ana La Ilaha Illa Allah, Wa Ana Mohammad Rasoolo Allah is known in Islam as the Shahada and it is the first of 5 pilars of Islam that I am sure you all know.

    Literally the Shahada means: I witness that there is no God but Allah, and that Mohamed is the prophet of Allah

    What makes a nice discussion is how false this statement is. If you witness something, you either have to see it with your own eyes, or hear it with your own ears.

    How can you say I witness that Allah is the one God when you have not seen him, like wise for Mohammad!

    Just a thought! Thinking hard
    ...
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #1 - September 17, 2009, 07:39 PM
    never crossed my mind before ,but what i noticed is that its SO DAMN hard to say it in my current state..
    "The Thrill Is Gone , The thrill is Gone away !"
    أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأن محمدآ عبده ورسوله
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #2 - September 17, 2009, 07:44 PM
    Ash hado An na Al RIBS killed a panda and ate its liver.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #3 - September 17, 2009, 08:17 PM
    Quote from: Baal on September 17, 2009, 07:44 PM
    Ash hado An na Al RIBS killed a panda and ate its liver.


    Hey, I did not kill any Pandas, and besides, I love Pandas! They are cute, especially when they sneez  Cheesy

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzRH3iTQPrk
    ...
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #4 - September 17, 2009, 08:31 PM
     Lmao

    That is brilliant Ribs!
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #5 - September 17, 2009, 08:46 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on September 17, 2009, 07:29 PM
    Ashhado Ana La Ilaha Illa Allah, Wa Ana Mohammad Rasoolo Allah is known in Islam as the Shahada and it is the first of 5 pilars of Islam that I am sure you all know.

    Literally the Shahada means: I witness that there is no God but Allah, and that Mohamed is the prophet of Allah

    What makes a nice discussion is how false this statement is. If you witness something, you either have to see it with your own eyes, or hear it with your own ears.

    How can you say I witness that Allah is the one God when you have not seen him, like wise for Mohammad!

    Just a thought! Thinking hard

    Actually you're wrong, as far as I understand it. I was talking about the shahada with Emerald when I was making those userbars.  Wink
    Story is that the literal translation of the shahada is "No divine but Allah, and.........................". So there is nothing about witnessing or anything else.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #6 - September 17, 2009, 09:37 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on September 17, 2009, 07:29 PM
    Ashhado Ana La Ilaha Illa Allah, Wa Ana Mohammad Rasoolo Allah is known in Islam as the Shahada and it is the first of 5 pilars of Islam that I am sure you all know.

    Literally the Shahada means: I witness that there is no God but Allah, and that Mohamed is the prophet of Allah

    What makes a nice discussion is how false this statement is. If you witness something, you either have to see it with your own eyes, or hear it with your own ears.

    How can you say I witness that Allah is the one God when you have not seen him, like wise for Mohammad!

    Just a thought! Thinking hard


    I hadn't thought about it like that before - but you are spot on.

    I never witnessed any of that shit.
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #7 - September 17, 2009, 09:38 PM
    No, you say "ash shadu an..." "I bear witness that..." and then "la illaha il Allah" and then "ash hadu an Muhammadu rasool Allah."  Although sure plenty of people say it without "ash hadu an", if you are to become Muslim and in the salat, you say "ash shadu an."
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #8 - September 17, 2009, 09:39 PM
    What is the word in Arabic for testimony?  Although translated as "I bear witness" could it just as easily be "I testify that..."?
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #9 - September 17, 2009, 09:42 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on September 17, 2009, 08:46 PM
    Actually you're wrong, as far as I understand it. I was talking about the shahada with Emerald when I was making those userbars.  Wink
    Story is that the literal translation of the shahada is "No divine but Allah, and.........................". So there is nothing about witnessing or anything else.


    With all due respect to Emerald - "Ash-hadu" means I bear witness.

    Witness as in; I testify I saw it - I witnessed it - I am proof it is true.

    The fact is we take it on trust from others - there is no fucking Shahada!

    RIBS is right.
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #10 - September 17, 2009, 09:45 PM
    The Shahada should typically start by the word Ashhado and that is how it got the name Shahada in the first place. Ashhado= I witness.

    Edit: ashhado comes from the word yoshahido = sees or looks at

    Allah himself used the word shahada to tell Muslims how to fast Ramadan. There is a verse in Quran that says: "Man shahida minkom alshahr falyasimho".... Which literaly means "Whoever have witnessed or seen the month (cresent) should fast."

    So there you go...
    ...
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #11 - September 17, 2009, 09:57 PM
    Quote from: fading on September 17, 2009, 09:39 PM
    What is the word in Arabic for testimony?  Although translated as "I bear witness" could it just as easily be "I testify that..."?



    From Sura Al-Anbyaa:

    قَالُوا فَأْتُوا بِهِ عَلَىٰ أَعْيُنِ النَّاسِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَشْهَدُونَ ﴿٦١﴾

    Said they: Then bring him before the eyes of the people, perhaps they may bear witness. (21:61)

    ...
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #12 - September 17, 2009, 10:12 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on September 17, 2009, 09:42 PM
    With all due respect to Emerald - "Ash-hadu" means I bear witness.

    Witness as in; I testify I saw it - I witnessed it - I am proof it is true.

    The fact is we take it on trust from others - there is no fucking Shahada!

    RIBS is right.

    Ok, fair enough. Come to think of it I wasn't asking him about the full version, just the bit that is usually quoted (la ilaha il alllah)
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #13 - September 17, 2009, 10:18 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on September 17, 2009, 10:12 PM
    (la ilaha il alllah)


    Takbiirr!! Takbirrr!!!  Cheesy
    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #14 - September 17, 2009, 10:28 PM
     Tongue
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #15 - September 17, 2009, 10:34 PM
    To make it worse:

    The whole thing in Arabic is called: Al-Shahadatyn which means the two witness statements... Afro

    ...
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #16 - September 17, 2009, 11:52 PM
    The idea of 'ill allah' always makes me laugh. God is poorly in English! bunny
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #17 - September 18, 2009, 12:49 AM
    "I witness that there is no God but Allah ... "

    by the way isn't that saying that Allah is not god?
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #18 - September 18, 2009, 01:57 AM
    No, but it's saying there is no god BUT Allah. Allah is the name of the god. So it's denying every god man kind ever believed in(and will come to believe in) except for Allah.
    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #19 - September 18, 2009, 02:22 AM
    I dont understand why the "muhammed is is prophet" part is necessary.
    Seems to make Muhammed "partners" with allah, and after all arent all prophets "equal"?

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #20 - September 18, 2009, 03:21 AM
    I've heard a recent updated version of the Shahada where it says '..and Mohammed is his last messenger."
    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #21 - September 18, 2009, 03:47 AM
    Quote from: RIBS on September 17, 2009, 09:57 PM

    From Sura Al-Anbyaa:

    قَالُوا فَأْتُوا بِهِ عَلَىٰ أَعْيُنِ النَّاسِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَشْهَدُونَ ﴿٦١﴾

    Said they: Then bring him before the eyes of the people, perhaps they may bear witness. (21:61)



    Tayib, I just wanted to know.  You know how ضرب can become words as varied, yet connected, as stir cake batter, strike out on a journey, or beat the crap out of the nushuziya wife?  Just wanted to know if شهد could be used the same way.  I mean, I want to be very sure because this is very funny and I want to be able to enjoy mocking it and know that there isn't another intended meaning.
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #22 - September 18, 2009, 03:51 AM
    Quote from: Homer on September 18, 2009, 02:22 AM
    I dont understand why the "muhammed is is prophet" part is necessary.
    Seems to make Muhammed "partners" with allah, and after all arent all prophets "equal"?


    Necessary so that when people like Musaylimah or the other post-Mo claimants of prophethood came along - whether in Arabia or anywhere else, like in Bahai, then Muslims can say, "No Mo was the last prophet.'  Sometimes I have seen when someone converts to Islam, ad they assume the person was Christian, they make the person say 'ash hadu etc' and then 'and I bear witness that Jesus was a messenger and prophet'.  Even though supposedly, the statement about Muhammad is to affirm all those that came before in Islamic belief.  Personally? I always felt that it was done for the benefit of a certain segment of the crowd, so they could get a little wet / hard watching someone from the dominant paradigm accept their perfect desert religion. 
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #23 - September 18, 2009, 05:40 AM
    Quote from: Homer on September 18, 2009, 02:22 AM
    I dont understand why the "muhammed is is prophet" part is necessary.
    Seems to make Muhammed "partners" with allah, and after all arent all prophets "equal"?




    No, in the Quran Allah says clearly that he prefered some prophets over others. I think maybe two or three times, which also made me puzzled by what is meant by the notion that Allah the most merciful who is fair and just?

    If I am not wrong, there is one verse that says, Mohamed is the best of the prophets.... Which to it kind of gives it away who wrote the Quran?
    ...
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #24 - September 18, 2009, 06:42 AM
    Quote from: fading on September 18, 2009, 03:47 AM
    Tayib, I just wanted to know.  You know how ضرب can become words as varied, yet connected, as stir cake batter, strike out on a journey, or beat the crap out of the nushuziya wife?  Just wanted to know if شهد could be used the same way.  I mean, I want to be very sure because this is very funny and I want to be able to enjoy mocking it and know that there isn't another intended meaning.


    Most words have shades of meanings, but the basic meaning of شهد is to witness with one's own eyes - as a consequence it means testify as one would testify in court or affirm in the sense that one can verify that something is true.

    Yet the truth is that no-one who says it can ever really claim to really have a personal witness/testimony to the truth of that statement.

    It should be "I believe..." Not "I bear witness..."

  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #25 - September 18, 2009, 06:58 AM
    Quote from: Homer on September 18, 2009, 02:22 AM
    I dont understand why the "muhammed is is prophet" part is necessary.
    Seems to make Muhammed "partners" with allah, and after all arent all prophets "equal"?




    I always wondered about the same thing, why only mention Mo's name if you claim that all Prophets are equal? The Shahada gives Mo too close a proximity with divinity!
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #26 - September 18, 2009, 07:13 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on September 18, 2009, 06:42 AM
    Most words have shades of meanings, but the basic meaning of شهد is to witness with one's own eyes - as a consequence it means testify as one would testify in court or affirm in the sense that one can verify that something is true.

    Yet the truth is that no-one who says it can ever really claim to really have a personal witness/testimony to the truth of that statement.

    It should be "I believe..." Not "I bear witness..."




    Yes Hassan, that is more appropriate and makes more sense. In Arabic the word Ash-Hado means: I have seen or I bear Witness.... it does not mean anything else. I now find it so funny that I wonder why I have not questioned it before!
    ...
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #27 - September 18, 2009, 07:21 AM
    Quote from: Rashna on September 18, 2009, 06:58 AM
    I always wondered about the same thing, why only mention Mo's name if you claim that all Prophets are equal? The Shahada gives Mo too close a proximity with divinity!


    Allah obviously is just like a father who loves some of his kids more than the other children and he admits it!

    Quote from: Al-Baqara
    Those messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan. (253)

    ...
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #28 - September 18, 2009, 12:22 PM
    I prefer my own Shahada

    I bear witness that each person has a right to have his own God,
    and I bear witness that no person has the right to force his God on others.
  • Re: The Shahada is an Imposible Statement!
     Reply #29 - September 18, 2009, 10:58 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on September 17, 2009, 09:42 PM
    With all due respect to Emerald - "Ash-hadu" means I bear witness.

    Witness as in; I testify I saw it - I witnessed it - I am proof it is true.

    The fact is we take it on trust from others - there is no fucking Shahada!

    RIBS is right.

    ========

    Very true...Hass, Os and RIBS.


    Muslims tho like to cut it to: (la ilaha illa Allah), without the (ash-hadu) part,

    thus it'll be what Os said.



    yet still, Muslims could argue that (yash-hadu) could mean:

    "He can decisively tell that....." so ahshadu anna la ilaha illa Allah = (I -deep inside my heart- believe that there's no divine but Allah)

    altho I consider that weak argument, not well clear in lexicons...etc.


    Anyway, it needs more digging into lexicons and Qaraen of Quran, I just wanted to let Os know I was talking earlier about the (la ilaha Illah Allah) part without ashhadu, as it is commonly said by Muslims...

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
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