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Theme Changer

 Topic: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?

 (Read 6478 times)
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  • Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     OP - September 18, 2009, 04:25 PM

    These are the verses of the Quran on marriage & divorce.

    Marriage:

    Quran only tells men that lawful to them are other People of the Book women, forgetting to mention what is lawful to women at all. Tongue

    005.005
    YUSUFALI: This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).
    PICKTHAL: This day are (all) good things made lawful for you. The food of those who have received the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. And so are the virtuous women of the believers and the virtuous women of those who received the Scripture before you (lawful for you) when ye give them their marriage portions and live with them in honour, not in fornication, nor taking them as secret concubines. Whoso denieth the faith, his work is vain and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter.
    SHAKIR: This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

    The next few verses are about whom not to marry, namely idolators, these verses tell men not to marry idolatress women, but in case of women, it tells men again-not to give their daughters in marriage to idolators.

    002.221
    YUSUFALI: Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise.
    PICKTHAL: Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo! a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you. These invite unto the Fire, and Allah inviteth unto the Garden, and unto forgiveness by His grace, and expoundeth His revelations to mankind that haply they may remember.
    SHAKIR: And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.

    In case of men, its do not marry, but in case of women, its do not give in marriage, why can't the Quran address women directly as "do not marry?"

    Before Islam, Khadija decided whom to marry on her own, so women did make marriage overtures independently, why not after Islam?

    Can't Quran tell women, "Do not marry idolator men?" Its as if they have no voice, they can only be given in marriage, not marry independently. finmad

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #1 - September 18, 2009, 04:30 PM

    Because Muhammad was a stupid biased sexist wanker. I can't believe Muslims get away with saying he came to give women more rights. He eroded womens rights. They could walk around topless before Mo came along. Try walking around topless in Saudi today.

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #2 - September 18, 2009, 05:03 PM

    Because Muhammad was a stupid biased sexist wanker. I can't believe Muslims get away with saying he came to give women more rights. He eroded womens rights. They could walk around topless before Mo came along. Try walking around topless in Saudi today.


    Of course you can.... Only if you want to go headless,, I guess.

    ...
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #3 - September 18, 2009, 05:04 PM

    How many places does the Quran address women directly anyway?
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #4 - September 18, 2009, 05:12 PM

    How many places does the Quran address women directly anyway?


    Well, the divorce verses don't address women either, I can hunt for those. There are verses wich address both men & women, btw.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #5 - September 18, 2009, 05:26 PM

    I really should read that book properly some day. Are there a few (if any) verses which address women alone?

  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #6 - September 18, 2009, 05:35 PM

    __________________________

    There is a chapter named Mariam in Qur'an and Mary, the mother of Jesus is addressed in it many times. But that was for the purpose of telling the story of Jesus and those many things God said to Mary do not have universal appeal.

    And again, we see Qur'an addressing prophet Muhammad's wives in a place or places, dictating some limits to them like they should confine in their houses and should not venture out like those women were doing in Pre-Islamic period.

    Thanks
    KF
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #7 - September 18, 2009, 05:40 PM

    I really should read that book properly some day. Are there a few (if any) verses which address women alone?



    Women alone-I think that the warning to Muhammad's wives is it. Some verses do address men & women both.

    These are all the Quranic verses referring to women, 177 in all in an Islamic site,it uses Yusuf Ali's translation but most don't address women, they tell men what to do to women, what inheritance they can give & get from women, how to exchange one wife for another, how to divorce women etc.

    Even that offensive Quran verse 4:34 addresses only men, it tells them to talk separate & beat women, at least in the Biblical equivalent Paul tells women to submit to their husbands(there's no beat) & men to be kind to their wives.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #8 - September 18, 2009, 05:43 PM

    Hmmm interesting. I'll pay special attention to this when I start reading the Quran.
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #9 - September 18, 2009, 05:51 PM

    These are just some important situations wherein the Quran should've addressed women, but doesn't.

    221. And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.

    Women aren't told not to marry, its only men who're told not to give women in marriage.

    222. And they ask you about menstruation. Say: It is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.

    Women aren't told to keep away from their husbands\owners(if they're slaves) when they menstruate, men are told not to go into them until they've cleansed themselves.

    231. And when you divorce women and they reach their prescribed time, then either retain them in good fellowship or set them free with liberality, and do not retain them for injury, so that you exceed the limits, and whoever does this, he indeed is unjust to his own soul; and do not take Allah's communications for a mockery, and remember the favor of Allah upon you, and that which He has revealed to you of the Book and the Wisdom, admonishing you thereby; and be careful (of your duty to) Allah, and know that Allah is the Knower of all things.

    Women aren't told what to do if they divorce men.
     
    232. And when you have divorced women and they have ended-- their term (of waiting), then do not prevent them from marrying their husbands when they agree among themselves in a lawful manner; with this is admonished he among you who believes in Allah and the last day, this is more profitable and purer for you; and Allah knows while you do not know.

    Women aren't told whether they can marry their husbands or not, men are told not to prevent women.

    235. And there is no blame on you respecting that which you speak indirectly in the asking of (such) women in marriage or keep (the proposal) concealed within your minds; Allah knows that you win mention them, but do not give them a promise in secret unless you speak in a lawful manner, and do not confirm the marriage tie until the writing is fulfilled, and know that Allah knows what is in your minds, therefore beware of Him, and know that Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.

    Again, women aren't told of marriage proposal, only men are told whats fine in case of proposals.

    236. There is no blame on you if you divorce women when you have not touched them or appointed for them a portion, and make provision for them, the wealthy according to his means and the straitened in circumstances according to his means, a provision according to usage; (this is) a duty on the doers of good (to others).

    Again, women aren't told what to do if marriage isn't consummated.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #10 - September 18, 2009, 05:52 PM

    _______________________


    Here we go:

    And say to the believing women, that they lower their gaze cast down their eyes and guard their chastity, and do not reveal their adornment except that which is outward (face and hands); and let them draw their veils over their neck, and not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husbands' fathers, or their sons, or their husbands' sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or what their right hands own, or such male attendants having no sexual desire, or children who have not yet attained knowledge of women's private parts; nor let them stamp their feet, so that their hidden ornament is known. And, O believers turn to Allah all together, in order that you prosper. [Quran: 24.31]

    O wives of the Prophet, you are not like other women. If you fear (Allah), do not be to complaisant in your speech, lest he in whose heart there is a sickness may desire (of his mother); but speak honorable words. Stay in your homes and do not display your finery as pagan women used to do in the olden Days of Ignorance. Establish your prayers, pay the obligatory charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. O family of the House, Allah only wishes to distance fault from you, and to cleanse you, and to purify you abundantly. [Quran:33.32-33]

    And that's it.

    KF
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #11 - September 18, 2009, 07:55 PM

    In the divorce verses the women are always referred to as the divorced women, so I don't really know where the concept of khul' comes from. Also women who want a divorce seem to be crucified more than men who want one. And again, its usually she seeks to be divorced not to divorce.

    Quote
    The divorce initiated by the wife is known as Khul' (if the husband is not at fault) and requires that the wife return her dowry to end the marriage because she is the 'contract-breaker'. In the instance of Talaaq, where the husband is the 'contract-breaker', he must pay the dowry in full in cases where all or part of it was deferred, or allow the wife to keep all of it if she has already been given it in full.

    In the case that the husband is at fault and the woman is interested in divorce, she can petition a judge for divorce, with cause. She would be required to offer proof that her husband had not fulfilled his marital responsibilities. If the woman had specified certain conditions that are Islamically accepted in her marriage contract, which were not met by the husband, she could obtain a conditional divorce.

    http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=92752

    Why the hell is it more difficult for a woman to get a divorce if her husband is abusive than if he is not at fault?

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #12 - September 21, 2009, 06:47 PM

    Quote
    Posted by: Rashna
    why can't the Quran address women directly as "do not marry?"


    Islam gives no freedom for womens.But many stupids says it only gives...

    Quote
    Posted by: RIBS
    Quote from: pakman on September 18, 2009, 11:30:36 AM
    Because Muhammad was a stupid biased sexist wanker. I can't believe Muslims get away with saying he came to give women more rights. He eroded womens rights. They could walk around topless before Mo came along. Try walking around topless in Saudi today.

    Of course you can.... Only if you want to go headless,, I guess.


    Well said......Those guys are barbaric.
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #13 - October 03, 2009, 03:26 AM

    Wow, isnt this something. I remember reading these verses, but I've never thought of them this way. Nice find.  Afro

    Maliki yawm ul LULZ
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #14 - October 05, 2009, 02:21 PM

    Quote from: pakman
    Because Muhammad was a stupid biased sexist wanker. I can't believe Muslims get away with saying he came to give women more rights.


    Do you think most Muslims and Muslimahs who propagate this nonsense actually believe it? Or do you think they might just be trying to make Islam more attractive to non-Muslim women they'd like to "revert" and who would be repelled by Islam's apparent misogyny?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #15 - October 05, 2009, 02:26 PM

    I think many muslims actually believe that nonsense.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #16 - October 05, 2009, 02:32 PM

    So do I - especially the muslimas.  I can't see why they would propagate it otherwise, (I can see why a certain type of man would, but not why the women would).

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #17 - October 05, 2009, 02:35 PM

    Those female members over at ummah.com (you know the ones I am talking about lol) believe it hook line and sinker.   Cheesy

    Say, DH, have you joined a muslim forum by any chance?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #18 - October 05, 2009, 02:38 PM

    I think many muslims actually believe that nonsense.




    Do you think it might be a worthwhile task to try and divest them of their nonsensical belief?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #19 - October 05, 2009, 02:40 PM

    Do you think it might be a worthwhile task to try and divest them of their nonsensical belief?


    I would imagine she does, what about you DH?  Do you think that would be a more worthwhile exercise than hanging round a forum for people who have already rejected Islam to tell them how wrong Islam is?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #20 - October 05, 2009, 02:40 PM

    I think it would be worthwhile for you, yes.  Although I say prepare yourself for some screaming at the pc in frustration with some of the members, and prepare to be banned pretty quickly.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #21 - October 05, 2009, 03:48 PM

    I would imagine she does, what about you DH?  Do you think that would be a more worthwhile exercise than hanging round a forum for people who have already rejected Islam to tell them how wrong Islam is?


    My basic issue here has not been "how wrong Islam is" but whether the distinction that is made here between "political" and "non-political" Islam has any meaning or just causes confusion as to what we are dealing with when it comes to this particular movement - a confusion which may lead to policies (eg permitting large-scale mosque building) we will have cause to regret. It has been argued here that if someone calling themselves a "Muslim" wishes to believe their religion teaches something when it doesn't then their claim to be a "Muslim" should still be accepted. If that is so then there is no cause to try and alter peoples' misconceptions about what the religion they claim to follow actually teaches.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #22 - October 05, 2009, 03:52 PM

    Correcting misconceptions about the status of women in Islam is not at all the same thing as preaching at people that political Islam is the only true Islam.  You have failed to make your case about the Council's statement on that subject in the thread dealing with it.  Please don't bring it into every thread or it will be regarded as trolling.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why can't the Quran directly address women on marriage ?
     Reply #23 - October 09, 2009, 02:45 PM

    Quote from: Cheetah
    Correcting misconceptions about the status of women in Islam is not at all the same thing as preaching at people that political Islam is the only true Islam.  You have failed to make your case about the Council's statement on that subject in the thread dealing with it.  Please don't bring it into every thread or it will be regarded as trolling.


    Let me remind you. You made the false allegation that I was:

    Quote
    hanging round a forum for people who have already rejected Islam to tell them how wrong Islam is


    which prompted me IN RESPONSE to remind you of the facts of the matter.


    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
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