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 Topic: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask

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  • Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     OP - September 18, 2009, 04:57 PM
    Could somebody please give it to me in a nutshell why Ali Sina to some here is a cussword, while some actually refer to his material as the stuff that made them think?

    Please enlighten me.

    /Stefan
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #1 - September 18, 2009, 05:02 PM
    He's written some good stuff about why Islam is not true, but to paraphrase Rashna - even a broken  clock can be right twice a day.  Ali Sina is a complete nutter.  He thinks muslims are subhuman, homosexuality is a mental illness, crop circles are evidence of aliens, Barack Obama is a psychopath, democracy should be scrapped and various other nonsense. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #2 - September 18, 2009, 05:06 PM
    ok, so can his material on islam (the debates etc) be trusted or is it of the same "quality" as Spencer's & al? Discounting the general nuttiness and language abuse?
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #3 - September 18, 2009, 05:09 PM
    His earlier stuff seems okay to me, but I would double check anything from that source before I gave it any credence.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #4 - September 18, 2009, 05:11 PM
    ________________________

    I would rather focus on the work than the worker behind it.


    Thanks
    KF
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #5 - September 18, 2009, 05:15 PM
    Ali Sina has gone more weird recently, but he's done some excellent work. Many on these forums owe their apostasy solely to him, he's collected great material, he's conducted terrific debates with some very respectable Islamic scholars.

    Also, much of what he says is supported by the Quran & Sahih hadiths.

    I think no one is free of bias, be it Sina or any leftists, so as long as anyone can substantiate their arguments, we should listen to what they say.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #6 - September 18, 2009, 05:29 PM
    I'm one of the people that was helped by ali sina at the start, his articles were very well researched and when i stumbled across them I went to check if what he was saying was right, and it was.

    FFI was also the place where I stayed for quite awhile as a member, the tone was good then, the members were supportive and rational and it was a nice place to be, all really helpful in my apostasy journey.

    Sadly he seemed to become a bit more rantful, a bit more hateful, many articles started to get peppered with "muslims are sub human" comments, and as an ex muslim, who was a muslim once that was offensive on many levels.

    It just got worse, then of course he became convinced that aliens were real, banned a bunch of us for disagreeing with him on that subject and that's the end of that.

    The members began to sound like ali sina, totally xenophobic in how they sound.

    I wouldn't link anyone to ali sinas articles not because the content couldn't be trusted, when it comes to islam I believe his articles are on point, I just wouldn't link anyone to his articles because of the tone, and because he is actually seen as too hateful these days to be a source worth using by many people.

    His articles are dismissed on the man, not on the content, so I'd rather link elsewhere.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #7 - September 18, 2009, 05:45 PM
    Was not he himself muslim once?
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #8 - September 18, 2009, 05:50 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on September 18, 2009, 05:02 PM
    He's written some good stuff about why Islam is not true, but to paraphrase Rashna - even a broken  clock can be right twice a day.  Ali Sina is a complete nutter.  He thinks muslims are subhuman, homosexuality is a mental illness, crop circles are evidence of aliens, Barack Obama is a psychopath, democracy should be scrapped and various other nonsense. 


    ^ What Cheetah said ^
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #9 - September 18, 2009, 05:52 PM
    In his debates, has he ever been beaten in his argumentation? Has his opponent ever been able to nail him down with an error?
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #10 - September 18, 2009, 05:54 PM
    Quote from: SE-man on September 18, 2009, 05:45 PM
    Was not he himself muslim once?


    Yes he was, he claims to be Iranian ex Muslim. I think its easier to feel hurt & angry if you live in a Muslim nation & see first hand what Islam did to it, than if you live in the West, where because Islam lacks the ability to do much except successful & foiled terrorist attacks once in a while, its easy to sympathize with tolerant Muslims.

    In Islamic nations, its easy to see how many extremists turn a nation upside down, while tolerant Muslims are unable or unwilling to do much.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #11 - September 18, 2009, 05:56 PM
    Maybe because tolerant muslims don't want to do what extremists do. There's a reason that there's a distinction between tolerant and extreme. Tongue
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #12 - September 18, 2009, 05:59 PM
    Quote from: awais on September 18, 2009, 05:56 PM
    Maybe because tolerant muslims don't want to do what extremists do. There's a reason that there's a distinction between tolerant and extreme. Tongue


    Whatever its due to, the circumstances in most Muslim nations v. non Muslim nations speak for themselves. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #13 - September 18, 2009, 06:35 PM
    Quote
    Posted by: Rashna

    Ali Sina has done some excellent work. Many on these forums owe their apostasy solely to him, he's collected great material, he's conducted terrific debates with some very respectable Islamic scholars.


    I read somewhere in a site that Mr.Ali Sina sent a invitation to waste Naik for a Debate and he didnt accepted.And i read from another site once,,,There it was written as Zakir Naik sent Mr.Ali Sina a invitation for Debate and he didnt accepted.

    So,which one is True ?

    Do Ali Sina has interest to debate with Naik ?

    Will it happen anyday ?
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #14 - September 18, 2009, 06:39 PM
    Well Ali Sina is crazy but at least he has the absolute truth on his side: "there are no miracles in the Quran". Zakir Naik couldn't argue against absolute truth

    Ironically it was actually an Ali Sina debate that made me finally quit Islam, along with a few ChristianPrince videos. The debate was Ali Sina against Ghamidi and the other one.

    That was a good debate, they were both skinned even though he could have shown more tact-credit where credit is due though he did completely wipe the floor with them until they just quit.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #15 - September 18, 2009, 06:43 PM
    So he stands undefeated does he? Are those he has met the Big Guys as far as Muslim Scholars go, or does he still have to "fight for the championship"?
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #16 - September 18, 2009, 06:44 PM
    Quote from: Sameer on September 18, 2009, 06:35 PM
    I read somewhere in a site that Mr.Ali Sina sent a invitation to waste Naik for a Debate and he didnt accepted.And i read from another site once,,,There it was written as Zakir Naik sent Mr.Ali Sina a invitation for Debate and he didnt accepted.

    So,which one is True ?

    Do Ali Sina has interest to debate with Naik ?

    Will it happen anyday ?


    Ali Sina has sent Naik multiple invitations, Naik has turned them down saying that he only debates in public, Sina of course doesn't want to show his face in public.

    I think Naik would be beaten hollow in any online debate, his strength is that he's got so much-Quran, hadiths & other faiths texts memorized, so the other person tends to be overwhelmed. In an online debate, the other person can check & cross check facts.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #17 - September 18, 2009, 06:55 PM
    Ali Sina's approach has always been wrong and apart from a few who have been influenced in 10 years - we have a comparable success-rate in under two years. (If one insists on looking at it in those terms - and it's partly because we don't that we are actually very successful.)

    Do you know that I knew Ali Sina before FFI. I first met him on a forum for Muslim/Islamic Humanists in 1999/2000. I was a Muslim then and tried defending Islam. I know ppl say he's got worse but imho he was a crazy loon then.

    I then exchanged many PMs with him in 2002 on FFI and shared my doubts and feelings. He kept telling me to post about my doubts and said I could keep it anonymous - so I did - under a false name (americanxmuslim) to see how it felt. But I wasn't ready and his pushing me didn't help so I asked him to remove it.

    He refused and even published my PMs on the public forum. (a nasty, low act I shall never forget - particularly as I had been nothing but polite to him.)

    That was 2002.

    I reckon that my contacts with him and the extremely hateful views I heard from him and others on FFI delayed my leaving Islam for another several years.

    I did not actually consciously reject Islam until 2007.

    So I'm sorry but I think that although Ali Sina has made some great points, he has also done a great deal of harm to the ex-Muslim cause, by making it appear that to leave Islam one must also display extreme hatred towards Islam and Muslims.
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #18 - September 18, 2009, 07:03 PM
    Quote
    Posted by: Rashna
    Naik has turned them down saying that he only debates in public


    Oooh ...as he is a Hollywood Hero  Cheesy

    Someone should challenge him in public and defeat him.So that he will no more earn money from saudi  dance

    The great joke is,there are many people who changes to some religion because of preachers.This waste Naik knows very well to brain wash people.If he is defeated,Many people who were brain washed by him will convert to any other religion or atheists.
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #19 - September 18, 2009, 07:08 PM
    Another thing that has always puzzled is why intelligent people can't see the glaringly obvious and quite simple fact that you will never "encourage" Muslims to leave Islam if you hate their guts.

    If one is only there to humiliate Muslims and take away every piece of dignity from them and demand they crawl on their knees in utter humiliation and confess they were evil inhuman terrorist and hate their family and friends.

    Then it is not rocket science to see that you will not have much success - but instead create a cess pit for mud wrestling - which is exactly what FFI was at times.



  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #20 - September 18, 2009, 07:34 PM
    Well, Sina has encouraged folks like BerberElla, Shahid Raza, Finally Free and quite a few others.

    Even you have encouraged quite a few Hassan.

    Perhaps most importantly, what FFI has done is made some non Muslims learn more about Islam-the kind of info Muslims will seek to hide.

    FFI & Wikiislam refutes Zakir Naik's arguments, makes some alternative facts known.

    I'd send anyone who's enchanted with Islam & taken in with all the propaganda, hoping to convert to Islam to FFI, or some Muslims enchanted by Naik like folks to FFI, sometimes a shock treatment is needed.

    Otherwise, this site is good for another type of doubting Muslim.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #21 - September 18, 2009, 07:37 PM
    When I was on my journey, I did go to FFI and remember thinking "what a bunch of wankers" and was very skeptical that it was actually an ex-muslim site, because of the extremity of the views there.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #22 - September 19, 2009, 09:37 AM
    This was my intro post at FFI. I was very sensitive then (and am still offended by much of what was said to me), but MashaFSM the second response was a recommendation for here, Grin.

    My "intellectually inferior" friend was a nitwit who was only my friend cuz he was the only salafi male muslim around my age. I really hated him, but I never let him know how I felt, I pride myself on that Smiley.

    I regret saying most of it's people are stupid. But it's true in a way. Undecided
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #23 - September 19, 2009, 10:03 AM
    You know, I never went on FFI or WikiIslam in my journey of saying goodbye to Islam (and religion) as a whole. In fact I may have visited FFI just once or twice for a few minutes and left without being impressed.

    In fact it wasnt until I joined CEMB here that I found out about the issues surrounding Ali Sina and FFI.
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #24 - September 19, 2009, 10:09 AM
    That was pretty sane for FFI, Awais - I notice you only had 7 posts - I think that was wise lol Wink
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #25 - September 19, 2009, 10:11 AM
    Quote from: atheist.pk on September 19, 2009, 10:03 AM
    You know, I never went on FFI or WikiIslam in my journey of saying goodbye to Islam (and religion) as a whole. In fact I may have visited FFI just once or twice for a few minutes and left without being impressed.

    In fact it wasnt until I joined CEMB here that I found out about the issues surrounding Ali Sina and FFI.


    Until CEMB came along there really was nowhere apart from FFI that an Ex-Muslim could go.

    We need to promote it more though to let others know.

  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #26 - September 19, 2009, 12:07 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on September 18, 2009, 07:34 PM
    I'd send anyone who's enchanted with Islam & taken in with all the propaganda, hoping to convert to Islam to FFI, or some Muslims enchanted by Naik like folks to FFI, sometimes a shock treatment is needed.

    Otherwise, this site is good for another type of doubting Muslim.

    Thanks Rashna - I feel the same, and would like to keep it that way.  If you feel you are more suited to FFI and their tone (I believe you currently are), then you will get more satisfaction from posting there.  On the other hand if you feel oppositely inclined, then you will get more satisfaction here.

    But currently Rashna you are sticking out like a sore thumb and disturbing the sanctuary here that we and the mods have created for ourselves.  Your single-handed reactionary attempt to convert this place into FFI (which already exists) will bear no fruit for yourself or others.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #27 - September 19, 2009, 02:47 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on September 19, 2009, 10:11 AM

    We need to promote it more though to let others know.



    I have had the thought to try to get some of the Swedish newspapers to write about what you guys do and the circumstances that can surround apostasy within islam. It is not very well known here - we don't have Dr Dawkins around to remind us...

    I have not carried through since I did not think it would be welcome.

    Do you think it would be a good idea?
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #28 - September 19, 2009, 05:17 PM
    Anything that promotes the council of ex-muslims to the fore of the media or public attention is welcome here. 

    At the very least you might enable some muslim, currently being troubled by their thoughts like we were in our earlier years, to find us and take refuge with like minded individuals.  Something most of us here were not lucky enough to have had in our earlier and more difficult years.

    Good work SE-Man  Afro
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Ali Sina - sorry but I need to ask
     Reply #29 - September 19, 2009, 05:34 PM
    Don't thank me yet. I still have to manage to interest them. I am not in that crowd normally, and islam critique is quite sensitive here, as in other places.

    You heard about our homegrown terrorists perhaps, recently arrested while traveling to al-Qa'ida territory in Pakistan?
    - Mehdi Ghezali, of Guantanamo fame (his second arrest on terrorism charges, both in that area)
    - Safia Benaouda and her husband

    The mother of Safia Benaouda is the chair person of the Swedish Muslim Council, a Swedish convert.

    It scares me that the daughter of the person who is supposed to represent a large part of Swedish Muslims is not educated enough to stay away from Al-Qa'ida.

    We need an internal debate in Muslim circles and we need it to be influenced by sane people, like those here present.
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