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Theme Changer

 Topic: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions

 (Read 7502 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     OP - September 18, 2009, 11:34 PM

    The first question on last sundays The Big Questions on the BBC was "Does Islam encourage violence?".

    Watch it here... http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00mqhq2/The_Big_Questions_Series_2_Episode_34/

    I haven't watched it yet, but I'm about to now.  cool2

    On the panel there is:

    Sheikh Ibrahim Morgra
    Douglas Murray
    Cristina Odone

    .
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #1 - September 19, 2009, 12:00 AM

    Thanks Shahid, will definitely take a look at that.
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #2 - September 19, 2009, 12:28 AM

    It's not on youtube yet so try to watch it before sunday or it'll disappear from iplayer.

    I just watched it.  A very explosive, yet civilised debate.  I so wish that I could just come-out as an ex-Muslim and appear on these kinda debates myself!  I'd have so much to say.

    Kudos to Douglas Murray.

    We're 10 steps ahead when it comes to these kinda debates.  We've been having these kinda debates on the internet for yonks, but it's nice to see that these debates are now on mainstream TV and I hope we don't lose the momentum.  There should be absolutely NO fear in questioning or condemning Islam anywhere.


    .
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #3 - September 19, 2009, 12:36 AM

    Just finished watching it, never seen anything so bloody tedious in my life! None of the people debating against Islam brought up any good points. They all made claims, they didn't back them up thereby giving the muslims the upperhand. None of them seemed to know much about Islams history giving the muslims free reign to spread all the bull about Islam fighting in defence only.

    They should invite us CEMB users to one of these debates, we know what we're on about Wink
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #4 - September 19, 2009, 12:57 AM

    It was alright i thought. There is definitely violence in Islam but I do hope mainstream Islam does finally condemn terrorism and start promoting peace instead of turning a blind eye.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #5 - September 19, 2009, 01:38 AM

    Good show, thanks! Douglas Murray was pretty much on the ball. I think many Muslims quietly approve of Islamic terrorism, I see it in my family alone ...

    - Re: Sex on TV. Correlation does not imply causation, so I don't buy the 1950's stats to today.
    - Re: Politics & religion: I agree with the audience member that policies today should have the foundations of specialists like economists.

    Yes, it would be great to get some CEMB in the audience!
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #6 - September 19, 2009, 04:20 AM

    I loved what Douglas Murray said when he said "Saying that Islam is a religion of peace is just as wildly inaccurate as saying it is a religion of violence". Well put.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #7 - September 19, 2009, 05:15 AM

    The share of violence in Islam imo is more than any other religion, textually.

    Judaism comes close, but again whatever violence is textually limited to Israel, & its not supposed to be a world conquering faith.

    Christianity has Jesus who's non violent.

    Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, etc aren't textually violent at all.

    Islam on practically every page encourages murder & mayhem on idolators, Jews, Christians & whatnot.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #8 - September 19, 2009, 10:18 AM

    Quote from: Rashna
    Islam on practically every page encourages murder & mayhem on idolators, Jews, Christians & whatnot.

    Now now, lets not exaggerate here.  The violence is definitely there, and Muhammad was a warrior who launched offensive wars... but it's not on practically "every page".


    .
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #9 - September 19, 2009, 10:31 AM

    Now now, lets not exaggerate here.  The violence is definitely there, and Muhammad was a warrior who launched offensive wars... but it's not on practically "every page".




    Well okay, that was exaggeration.  Smiley


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #10 - September 19, 2009, 10:35 AM

    Depends how big the pages are and how much you put on them.  Tongue

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #11 - September 19, 2009, 10:39 AM

    Here's a 5 minute summary video for those with weak connection or don't want to watch the whole thing

    http://www.ccfon.org/mediacentre.php?avid=258&avap=1

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #12 - September 19, 2009, 10:39 AM

    The first question on last sundays The Big Questions on the BBC was "Does Islam encourage violence?".

    Watch it here... http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00mqhq2/The_Big_Questions_Series_2_Episode_34/

    I haven't watched it yet, but I'm about to now.  cool2

    On the panel there is:

    Sheikh Ibrahim Morgra
    Douglas Murray
    Cristina Odone


    Yeah I saw that last week - was going to post it - but forgot - I always find that show interesting - good debates.

    My only criticism is that debates like this only touch the surface and that I find frustrating.
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #13 - September 19, 2009, 10:41 AM

    Yes I have to say that I really like Douglas Murray.
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #14 - September 19, 2009, 11:06 AM

    Pity I can't get the whole thing over here. The highlights were interesting.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #15 - September 19, 2009, 01:40 PM

    The share of violence in Islam imo is more than any other religion, textually.

    Judaism comes close, but again whatever violence is textually limited to Israel, & its not supposed to be a world conquering faith.

    Christianity has Jesus who's non violent.

    Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, etc aren't textually violent at all.

    Islam on practically every page encourages murder & mayhem on idolators, Jews, Christians & whatnot.


    Wasn't Muhammad a pacifist for the first 10-13years of his prophethood when he and his followers endured endured Meccan persecution. Or is that a fairytale I was taught also?

    There isn't violence on nearly every page but there is condemnation of the idolaters and unbelievers on every page.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #16 - September 19, 2009, 01:47 PM

    It wasn't persecution. They left him alone until he started getting rowdy, then they told him to leave town. He was "pacifist" until he got himself an army. Then that changed very rapidly.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #17 - September 19, 2009, 01:49 PM

    Why did they make him leave town?
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #18 - September 19, 2009, 01:55 PM

    He started trying to throw his weight around.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #19 - September 19, 2009, 02:05 PM

    Seems like a plausible assessment but I heard they tried to assassinate him and his followers or am I wrong here?
    Just trying to get a picture of what really happened here.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #20 - September 19, 2009, 02:58 PM

    Another fiery debate, this time including an ex-muslim:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDvaMejaMtA
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #21 - September 19, 2009, 03:08 PM

    HighOctane, that ex-muslim is Maryam Namazie (the head of CEMB) Wink
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #22 - September 19, 2009, 03:25 PM

    Seems like a plausible assessment but I heard they tried to assassinate him and his followers or am I wrong here?
    Just trying to get a picture of what really happened here.


    Hi Heyjustlooking,

    Its very important to note in any incident that histdory is always written by the winners, the losers don't & can't get to say their side of the story. This is especially true of something like the establishment of Islam, where the pre Islamic way of life of Arabia was completely uprooted by Muhammad within a few decades & the entire era tainted as jahiliyya or "time of ignorance."

    Thus, any history we can get is from Islamic sources, & naturally they can be pretty self serving. Yet even from such sources, we can see that in pre Islamic Arabia there was complete freedom of religion, which is why Khadija's cousin Waraqa ibn Nawfal had freely converted to Christianity & even discussed religion with Muhammad, today any Saudi convert to Christianity would be legally   Shooter, this is what happened after Muhammad's religion started.

    Also, we hear, again from Islamic sources that Kaab ibn al Ashraf was the son of a Jewish mother & a pagan father, if you know, according to halacha(Jewish law), the child of a Jewish woman is Jewish, so Kaab was brought up Jewish & even became leader of a Jewish tribe. After Islam, Muslim men are allowed to marry Christian\Jewish women, yet children have to be brought up Muslim.

    So we can see religious tolerance took a definite turn for the worse post Islam, rather than pre Islam.

    A society like pre Islamic Arabia which allowed conversions to Islam & even preaching Islam to pagans(like Waraqa did) & interfaith marriages between Jewesses & pagans(like Kaab) isn't a hotbed of religious intolerance.

    However, Muhammad's stance was obviously threatening.

    He had very clear & avowed ambitions, to cleanse the Arabian peninsula of other faiths. In fact, he converted Abu Sufyan solely by force.

    ?Do you realize to what you are committing yourselves in pledging your support to this man?  It is to war against Muhammad] said, ?Woe to you, Abu Sufyan, isn?t it time that you recognize that I am Allah?s apostle?? He (Abu Sufyan) answered, ?As to that I still have some doubt.? I (the narrator) said to him, ?Submit and testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the apostle of Allah before you lose your head,? so he did so. (Ibn Ishaq 814)
    No word of admonishment from Muhammad is recorded.  The prophet of Islam fully accepted the ?conversion? and immediately made use of Abu Sufyan to further his political goals.
    all and sundry? (Ibn Ishaq 299).  

    He said, Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4366:
    It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will Forced conversions on them."
    Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:
    Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
    Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
    ________________________________________
    Sahih Muslim Book 001, Number 0033:
    It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.not leave any but Muslim.

    So yu can see why Muhammad was extremely threatening to both pagans & Jews, these two communities didn't fight between each other over religion before Muhammad, they even intermarried(re Kaab's parents) so why would they have attacked only Muhammad?

    There was no objection to a new religion, but there's bound to be objection to a faith which forcibly interfered with their way of life & tried to cleanse them. So if they sensed such a threat, would it be very evil to be on their guard?

    For an analogy, the Scandinavian nations for example allow freedom of religion, Muslims can come & give dawa there, but if these Mullahs start preaching terrorist attacks or stonings, they'd be deported.

    In any case, their suspicion proved totally correct. The pagans were forcibly converted by Muhammad by smashing their idols & Jewish tribes were massacred.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #23 - September 19, 2009, 03:31 PM

    HighOctane, that ex-muslim is Maryam Namazie (the head of CEMB) Wink


    Thanks PS, I was about to search her up but you've done it for me. Afro
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #24 - September 19, 2009, 03:35 PM

    Wasn't Muhammad a pacifist for the first 10-13years of his prophethood when he and his followers endured endured Meccan persecution. Or is that a fairytale I was taught also?

    There isn't violence on nearly every page but there is condemnation of the idolaters and unbelievers on every page.



    Well,Muhammad brought on the resentment of the local people by breaking with tradition and cursing other religions:

    When the apostle openly displayed Islam as Allah ordered him, his people did not withdraw or turn against him, so far as I have heard, until he spoke disparagingly of their gods.  When he did that, they took great offence and resolved unanimously to treat him as an enemy. (Ibn Ishaq 167)

    So you see Muhammad had freedom to preach whatever he wanted, in line with a culture which allowed Christianity, Judaism & paganism to flourish, but they were offended when he began to mock their gods.

    But even in Europe, Muslims started to get so furious over the Muhammad cartoons, so why blame Meccans for doing something which even immigrant, educated Muslims do?

    At least Meccans allowed freedom of religion to preach & convert to anything, most Islamic nations don't even do this.  Wink

    Although asked to stop, Muhammad continued to stir up trouble by ?condemning? the local religion, causing the Meccans great anxiety:

    [The Meccans] said they had never known anything like the trouble they had endured from this fellow.  He had declared their mode of life foolish, insulted their forefathers, reviled their religion, divided the community and cursed their gods (Ibn Ishaq 183).

    Well, there are laws against hate speech in even many European nations.

    One of the worst incidents suffered by him wasn't even an attempted murder, only that Abu Jahl put a camel's intestines on his back, anyway these men who played this mischief(not even attempted to murder him, although they could have done tha )were later kiled by Muslims.

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 241:
    Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud:

    Once the Prophet was offering prayers at the Ka'ba. Abu Jahl was sitting with some of his companions. One of them said to the others, "Who amongst you will bring the abdominal contents (intestines, etc.) of a camel of Bani so and so and put it on the back of Muhammad, when he prostrates?" The most unfortunate of them got up and brought it. He waited till the Prophet prostrated and then placed it on his back between his shoulders. I was watching but could not do anything. I wish I had some people with me to hold out against them. They started laughing and falling on one another. Allah's Apostle was in prostration and he did not lift his head up till Fatima (Prophet's daughter) came and threw that (camel's abdominal contents) away from his back. He raised his head and said thrice, "O Allah! Punish Quraish." So it was hard for Abu Jahl and his companions when the Prophet invoked Allah against them as they had a conviction that the prayers and invocations were accepted in this city (Mecca). The Prophet said, "O Allah! Punish Abu Jahl, 'Utba bin Rabi'a, Shaiba bin Rabi'a, Al-Walid bin 'Utba, Umaiya bin Khalaf, and 'Uqba bin Al Mu'it (and he mentioned the seventh whose name I cannot recall). By Allah in Whose Hands my life is, I saw the dead bodies of those persons who were counted by Allah's Apostle in the Qalib (one of the wells) of Badr.

    ASnyway, this is just my opinion of what & how it happened, please feel free to disagree.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #25 - September 19, 2009, 05:02 PM

    Its an interesting point. I do note that there is a hostile attitude towards unbelievers and their religion in the Qur'an which does lead me to believe that this does not help Islam considers the very existence almost of these people a blasphemy. I don't know to be sure I am not convinced that the Meccan Pagans were innocent in all this either but Muhammad to me, its becoming evident, that he was not as peaceful as many Muslims claim. There are a lot of contradicting messages in the Qur'an. At times I do read verses which seem to promote peace but then I am reminded that Allah will punish the unbelievers. This is reiterated in the Qur'an time and time again.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #26 - September 19, 2009, 05:52 PM

    In my view Mo was no different to Genghis Khan or Atilla the Hun. Just a wild warrior interested in power and women. His followers have since painted him in a more positive light by attributing nice but made up stories to him. The medina verses are full of violence and the Muslim excuse (they are taken out of context) is a poor one. Why would God waste precious pages of his holy book for all times and all places talking about one small battle with in the grand scheme of things is insignificant.

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #27 - September 19, 2009, 06:12 PM

    Its an interesting point. I do note that there is a hostile attitude towards unbelievers and their religion in the Qur'an which does lead me to believe that this does not help Islam considers the very existence almost of these people a blasphemy. I don't know to be sure I am not convinced that the Meccan Pagans were innocent in all this either but Muhammad to me, its becoming evident, that he was not as peaceful as many Muslims claim. There are a lot of contradicting messages in the Qur'an. At times I do read verses which seem to promote peace but then I am reminded that Allah will punish the unbelievers. This is reiterated in the Qur'an time and time again.


    This is an interesting issue, if you've noticed carefully, the peaceful verses come near the beginning, the violent verses come later.

    This is due to the change in Muhammad's circumstances, in Mecca, he had managed to gather few followers after years of incessant preaching, in Medina he could win over the city. Obviously in Mecca, with only a small gang of followers, he couldn't attack anyone, so the verses are peaceful, even modern day avowed revolutionaries are peaceful when they lack the military abilities to carry out their plans, aren't they?

    We shouldn't confuse military or economic weakness with real peace.  Wink

    In Medina, as soon as he could gather an army, verses became increasingly belligerent-so later verses speak of murder & mayhem mostly.

    Muslim scholars have resolvedthis dilemma by the principle of Naskh or abrogation, by which the later verses cancel out the earlier ones.

    This doctrine isn't invented by Muslim scholars, rather its part & parcel of the Quran itself. Obviously Muhammad's contemporaries & friends too were surprised by his(or Allah's) change in tone from live & let live to increasingly violence, so Muhammad had these two revelations from Allah to explain why he(Or Allah) changed his tone.Infact, as the verses show, even Muhammad's followers felt he was forging verses in Allah's name.  Wink

    016.101
    YUSUFALI: When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.


     "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?" (Qur'an 2:106).


    Many traditional Islamic theologians and Qur'an commentators argue that the violent verses of sura 9 abrogate more relatively tolerant material such as sura 109. When discussing why Muhammad didn't begin sura 9 with the customary invocation bismillah ar-rahman ar-rahim, in the name of Allah, the compassionate, the merciful, an intriguing answer comes from a Qur'an commentary that is still highly valued today in the Islamic world, Tafsir al-Jalalayn. This is a fifteenth-century work by the renowned imams Jalal al-Din Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Mahalli (1389-1459) and Jalal al-Din Abd al-Rahman ibn Abi Bakr al-Suyuti (1445-1505). The invocation, suggests this tafsir, is security, and [Sura 9] was sent down when security was removed by the sword.

    Security's removal by the sword meant specifically the end of many treaties the Muslims had made with non-Muslims. Another still-influential Qur'an commentator, Ibn Kathir (1301-1372) quotes an earlier authority, Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, to establish that the Verse of the Sword, sura 9:5 ("slay the unbelievers wherever you find them") abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term.? He adds from another authority: No idolater had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Baraah was revealed.And yet another early commentator, Ibn Juzayy (d. 1340) agrees that one of this verse?s functions is abrogating every peace treaty in the Quran.

    This idea is crucial as a guide to the relationship of the Quran's peaceful passages to its violent ones. Suras 16, 29, 52, 73, and 109 the sources of many of the Qur'an's verses of peace and tolerance are all Meccan. That means that many Muslims, guided by commentators such as those above and the imams who teach from them, see these suras only in light of what was revealed later in Medina. Being the last or next-to-last sura revealed, sura 9 is generally understood as being the Quran's last word on jihad, and all the rest of the book  including the tolerance verses must be read in its light.

    Ibn Kathir states this explicitly in his commentary on another tolerance verse And he [Muhammad] saith: O my Lord! Lo! these are a folk who believe not. Then bear with them (O Muhammad) and say: Peace. But they will come to know (Qur'an 43:88-89). The commentator explains that say Salam (peace!) means, do not respond to them in the same evil manner in which they address you; but try to soften their hearts and forgive them in word and deed. However, that is not the last word on the subject. As Ibn Kathir notes: But they will come to know. This is a warning from Allah for them. His punishment, which cannot be warded off, struck them, and His religion and His word was supreme. Subsequently Jihad and striving were prescribed until the people entered the religion of Allah in crowds, and Islam spread throughout the east and the west.

    A modern-day Chief Justice of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Humaid, has taught that in the Qur'an, at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted and after that it was made obligatory. He also distinguishes two groups Muslims must fight: (1) against them who start the fighting against you (Muslims) . . . (2) and against all those who worship others along with Allah . . . as mentioned in Surat Al-Baqarah (II), Al-Imran (III) and At-Taubah (IX) . . . and other Surahs (Chapters of the Qur?an).? (The Roman numerals after the names of the chapters of the Quran are the numbers of the Suras: Sheikh Abdullah is referring to verses such as 2:216, 3:157-158, 9:5, and 9:29.)

    This understanding of the Quran isn't limited to the Wahhabi sect, to which Sheikh Abdullah belongs. The Pakistani Brigadier S. K. Malik's 1979 book The Quranic Concept of War (a book that made its way to the American mujahedin Jeffrey Leon Battle and October Martinique Lewis, and which carried a glowing endorsement from Pakistan?s then-future President Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq, who said that it explained the ONLY pattern of warthat a Muslim country could legitimately wage) delineates the same stages in the Quranic teaching about jihad: The Muslim migration to Medina brought in its wake events and decisions of far-reaching significance and consequence for them. While in Mecca, they had neither been proclaimed an Ummah [community] nor were they granted the permission to take up arms against their oppressors. In Medina, a divine revelation proclaimed them an Ummah and granted them the permission to take up arms against their oppressors. The permission was soon afterwards converted into a divine command making war a religious obligation for the faithful.

    This an answer from the Islamic website Sunnipath, regarding the principle of abrogation, it too suggests that the later verses ie the violent verses cancel out the peaceful ones.
    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=2656&CATE=1

    Thus according to the Quran, Muslim scholars throughout history upto the present date as well as various Islamist jihadists and "moderate" websites like Sunnipath-the Quranic verses preaching tolerance have been superceded by those preaching intolerance.

    The problem with the principle of abrogation isn't that the revelations to Jews & Christians have been superceded-the problem is that according to Quranic principles, no idolater, Trinitarian or non believer can live in peace in Dar ul Islam, they have to convert or die, while Jews & non Trinitarian Christians have to pay the jizya & face many restrictions & humiliations in their life as a non Muslim in Dar ul Islam. Also, Muslims will constantly attempt to expand the periphery of Dar ul Islam into Dar ul Harb's lands-leading to much strife.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #28 - September 19, 2009, 06:23 PM

    Blast. Bloody BBC to not allow non-UK to see the program.

    Could somebody fill me in on what that story about a Sudanese theologian who had argued for abrogation of the Medina verses and then been killed for heresy was? What was his argumentation? Does this argumentation fall in better soil in other, more stable muslim countries?

    /Stefan
  • Re: Does Islam encourage violence? The Big Questions
     Reply #29 - September 19, 2009, 06:28 PM

    Also, Anjem Choudary is obviously a nutcase. He was treated accordingly in the program.
    But unfortunately nutcases who are ridiculed in this kind of setting can attract followers just on this merit.

    How many would you estimate consider Choudary a good muslim leader and actually beleive this crap?
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »