Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #30 - October 06, 2009, 09:57 PM

Don't say that to your nan if you value your life.

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #31 - October 06, 2009, 09:59 PM

She was ancient and is dead now, but I never knew she'd become fossilised

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #32 - October 07, 2009, 11:12 AM

Wow... this is really cool.

We have so much evidence to the evoution theory that it allways hurts my brain when some creatonist tells me the earth is 6000 years old.

Hopefully, one day, we will have a flawless chain from us back to the earliest primate ancestor... would be fantastic.

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #33 - October 07, 2009, 09:10 PM

further evidence for our evolution from apes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FGYzZOZxMw&feature=PlayList&p=613B60AE42AA9633&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=36

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #34 - October 07, 2009, 09:26 PM

Nice and succinct little video there. That's the thing that gets me about idiotic creationists. They insist on claiming that evolution has never been observed, which completely ignores observations like the one in that video.

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #35 - October 08, 2009, 08:18 AM

Quote from: IsLame on October 07, 2009, 09:10 PM
further evidence for our evolution from apes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FGYzZOZxMw&feature=PlayList&p=613B60AE42AA9633&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=36

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #36 - October 08, 2009, 02:52 PM

Quote from: IsLame on October 07, 2009, 09:10 PM
further evidence for our evolution from apes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FGYzZOZxMw&feature=PlayList&p=613B60AE42AA9633&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=36

Nice find there IsLame. Very convincing indeed, chromosome 2 is a good example to use in a conversation with a creationist. I sure will be using it very soon. Since the Ardi discovery and the whole country here is in a Pro-creationism hype. The common tag they use to start a conversation now is: Those stupid Atheist Westerners think we were once monkeys! Here is this Ardi that was way before Lucy and it was upright not similar to Apes.

Thanks to Al-Jazera news channel who have aired the Ardi discovery with some extra spiced up anti-evolution statements that made every one speaking about it. I found myself defending Evolution with most of the time whatever I say goes into their right ear and comes out from their left ear in a millisecond.

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #37 - October 09, 2009, 01:26 AM

Well RIBS, if you ever want some solid anti-creationist stuff there is plenty around that we can hook you up with. Unfortunately most people who espouse creationism don't actually want to think about the implications of their position, so often presenting them with evidence has no effect.

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #38 - October 09, 2009, 07:48 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 09, 2009, 01:26 AM
Well RIBS, if you ever want some solid anti-creationist stuff there is plenty around that we can hook you up with. Unfortunately most people who espouse creationism don't actually want to think about the implications of their position, so often presenting them with evidence has no effect.

IMHO, If you look at the evidence for evolution and are being objective, then I think the obvious facts that will be staring at you should really make you reconsider what the scriptures are telling you about the origin of mankind, hence the reason why there is so much creationist propoganda. Stephen Weinberg once commented that people are not really concerned about how things are operating at a larger scale in the universe, the big one is evolution because it really does go against the whole Adam and Eve story. Although some have taken it metaphorically, the question is how many others can you take metaphorically before the whole thing is exhausted?
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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #39 - October 09, 2009, 08:18 AM

Well if you really want to you can take it all metaphorically and still call yourself a believer. Look at our friend the tailor.

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #40 - October 09, 2009, 08:19 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 09, 2009, 08:18 AM
Well if you really want to you can take it all metaphorically and still call yourself a believer. Look at our friend the tailor.

Oh Yeah, I forgot about good old Elvis.
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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #41 - October 09, 2009, 08:27 AM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on October 09, 2009, 07:48 AM
IMHO, If you look at the evidence for evolution and are being objective, then I think the obvious facts that will be staring at you should really make you reconsider what the scriptures are telling you about the origin of mankind, hence the reason why there is so much creationist propoganda. Stephen Weinberg once commented that people are not really concerned about how things are operating at a larger scale in the universe, the big one is evolution because it really does go against the whole Adam and Eve story. Although some have taken it metaphorically, the question is how many others can you take metaphorically before the whole thing is exhausted?

You know what? I am amazed at the new Muslim Apologetics willingness to accept the evolution theory based on that the first Bacteria or Protozoa that started all was created by God. But if you think about it no one knows how the first live thingy came about. And that is when those creationists jump with the "it must have been created" line. Is it not fair to tell them No, God did not when we don't have a clue how it happened?

I am having tough times now with my new willing to discuss Muslim friends!

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #42 - October 09, 2009, 08:31 AM

Skip abiogenesis for now. If they accept evolution then they are probably reasonably rational and that's good enough for practical purposes. Still, there really is no reason why a deity should have to specifically create life if said deity is capable of creating a universe that will produce life after enough time.

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #43 - October 09, 2009, 08:38 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 09, 2009, 08:31 AM
Skip abiogenesis for now. If they accept evolution then they are probably reasonably rational and that's good enough for practical purposes. Still, there really is no reason why a deity should have to specifically create life if said deity is capable of creating a universe that will produce life after enough time.

Yes you are right, I was a bit surprised that they can accept that Adam and Eve was just a fairy story. Actually one of them said that all the stories of the quran could be considered stories that god gave as an example for certain ideas that would have been difficult to explain to people at that time. Of course i told him that 99% of Muslims take them literally.

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #44 - October 09, 2009, 08:44 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 09, 2009, 08:31 AM
Skip abiogenesis for now. If they accept evolution then they are probably reasonably rational and that's good enough for practical purposes. Still, there really is no reason why a deity should have to specifically create life if said deity is capable of creating a universe that will produce life after enough time.

Some will accept evolution, but "only" for other life forms and not for mankind. And if you really want to see the opinion of a respected Ahl-e-Sunnah sufi "scholar" then check this out:-

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/evolve.htm
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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #45 - October 09, 2009, 08:57 AM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on October 09, 2009, 08:44 AM
Some will accept evolution, but "only" for other life forms and not for mankind. And if you really want to see the opinion of a respected Ahl-e-Sunnah sufi "scholar" then check this out:-

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/evolve.htm

K. I read it. Short version for those that need a translation: the Quran says different so evolution is false.

Seriously, what a load of retarded bollocks that bloke writes. He obviously knows nothing about genetics for a start, let alone anything else.

What is it with idiots who know nothing about the fields of science they attempt to criticise and think all they need is blind adherence to some old "scripture"?

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #46 - October 09, 2009, 09:09 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 09, 2009, 08:57 AM
K. I read it. Short version for those that need a translation: the Quran says different so evolution is false.

Seriously, what a load of retarded bollocks that bloke writes. He obviously knows nothing about genetics for a start, let alone anything else.

What is it with idiots who know nothing about the fields of science they attempt to criticise and think all they need is blind adherence to some old "scripture"?

The worst thing about it, is that this bloke is really taken seriously. When someone like this writes up this kind of junk, it puts blinkers on on otherwise well meaning people who really and genuinely are having doubts about their faith and need to seek objective answers.
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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #47 - October 09, 2009, 09:38 AM

The problem with his line of argument is that he is too used to theological thinking, in which one can bullshit to one's heart's content because it is all interpretation and nobody can prove you wrong. He seems to think this applies to all fields of academia and forgets, or doesn't want to remember, that some fields make a habit of testing their theories against reality.

He started with a perfectly valid point, in that we have no intrinsic way of knowing if our thoughts and perceptions are actually reflecting reality or if they are just biologically useful illusions. That's fine. His mistake is to extrapolate this into claiming that there is no way we can seek confirmation from reality and therefore we should rely on the silly Quran so there. That's where he fails miserably.

Also, his crack about Popper demonstrates ignorance. Popper ended up withdrawing his definition of "falsifiable" after more discussion and reflection but this is hardly ever mentioned by opponents of evolution. They love to grab onto his earlier statement but strenuously avoid admitting that Popper later changed his mind and agreed that evolution was falsifiable. It is too, as Haldane's remark about the hypothetical pre-Cambrian rabbit shows.

Keller equates "fossil evidence that would falsify the theory of evolution has never been found" with "it is impossible, even in theory, to find fossil evidence that would falsify evolution and therefore evolution is unfalsifiable and therefore evolution is unscientific". It's a nice attempt at rhetorical sleight of hand but profoundly stupid when exposed for what it is.

I assume he is, in theory, intelligent enough to know better but prefers to maintain the facade that his belief system is unfalsifiable.

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #48 - October 09, 2009, 09:53 AM

Quote from: RIBS on October 09, 2009, 08:27 AM
You know what? I am amazed at the new Muslim Apologetics willingness to accept the evolution theory based on that the first Bacteria or Protozoa that started all was created by God. But if you think about it no one knows how the first live thingy came about. And that is when those creationists jump with the "it must have been created" line. Is it not fair to tell them No, God did not when we don't have a clue how it happened?

I am having tough times now with my new willing to discuss Muslim friends!

I found this interesting video that might answer my friends questions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8nYTJf62sE&feature=related

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #49 - October 09, 2009, 10:10 AM

well explained video

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #50 - October 09, 2009, 10:25 AM

That is a very good one. Nice find.

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #51 - October 09, 2009, 10:28 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 09, 2009, 10:25 AM
That is a very good one. Nice find.

+1
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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #52 - October 09, 2009, 01:00 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 09, 2009, 10:25 AM
That is a very good one. Nice find.

Yeah I liked the explanation of how life could have sprung from nothing.

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #53 - October 20, 2009, 06:58 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on October 04, 2009, 09:33 PM
And just so we're telling both sides of the story, here's the creationist reaction to the same fossil....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxlym8ChDnA

I didn't know the Sun was only 6000 yrs old.

how can anyone take this guy seriously?

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Enlightened knaves or else religious fools....."

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #54 - October 29, 2009, 06:25 AM

Ardi is half Ape half human, isn't she the missing link that we are looking for?

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #55 - October 29, 2009, 07:30 AM

Who is "we"? Scientists have not been looking for "the missing link" or even "a missing link" as such for ages. The term belongs back in the 19th century. The modern view is that all species are transitional forms and there is never any one species that can be singled out as being "the missing link". So no, Ardi is not the missing link that we have been looking for.

She is a very interesting early hominid but, and this is important to remember, there is no guarantee that her species is a direct ancestor of our species. The two are obviously related, but there may not be a direct line between them. Ardi could just as well be from a dead end side branch of our family tree.

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #56 - October 29, 2009, 09:04 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 29, 2009, 07:30 AM
Who is "we"? Scientists have not been looking for "the missing link" or even "a missing link" as such for ages. The term belongs back in the 19th century. The modern view is that all species are transitional forms and there is never any one species that can be singled out as being "the missing link". So no, Ardi is not the missing link that we have been looking for.

Sorry, I shouldn't have said "WE". By "We" I meant the media, the creationists, the people who are discussing evolution and needed to show someone a proof, but by no means I mean us here in COEM.

I just finished reading Dawkins' TGSOE and I must say, I learned a lot of things that I did not know before. One of them is the false "Missing Link" idea. I liked his example of the human children as they grow up, parents can never tell when is the transitional stage between a baby toddler, a teenage, an adult or when they become old. He meant there is no certain day or month where you say, OK tomorrow this guy will be an adult. We say adult hood starts from 18, but other countries they have it from 17 or sometimes 21...

The same goes for Lucy, Ardi, or other fossils I guess. Although, I think there could be a link between two different animals. For example a squid-bobtail (IMHO) is the link between a star-fish and an octopus.

OCTOPUS

HAWAIIAN SQUID BOBTAIL

STARFISH

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #57 - October 29, 2009, 09:17 AM

No, because an octopus is an octopod and a squid is a decapod. Only distantly related. Starfish are different again.

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #58 - October 29, 2009, 09:31 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 29, 2009, 09:17 AM
No, because an octopus is an octopod and a squid is a decapod. Only distantly related. Starfish are different again.

Octopod, Decapod or in the case of a starfish Pentapod.... to me they all looks like belonging to the same branch of the evolutionary tree. The Starfish is the primitive one. I think!

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Re: Fossils may turn 'evolution on its head'
Reply #59 - October 29, 2009, 09:35 AM

That starfish is not a pentapod. Count the legs.

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