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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"

 (Read 9876 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     OP - October 21, 2009, 10:18 AM

    Hi,

    I saw the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQg6x-K82IA

    and would love to source the original video file if at all possible. I'm looking at making a video on my vimeo account on why Muslims shouldn't take a literalist approach to understanding the Qur'an, the role of Maurice Bucaille, Saudi Arabia and these so-called 'Qur'anic Science'.

    I'd like to make a running video which includes your video as part of it.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #1 - October 21, 2009, 11:37 AM

    Here you go: http://salam.googlecode.com/files/Scientific%20Miracles%20in%20the%20Qur'an.mp4

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
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  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #2 - October 21, 2009, 11:46 AM

    Cool Smiley

    I've plonked a little signature at the bottom; thank god I didn't convert to Islam; gave being a Muslim a 'test drive'; I'm surprised that people can put up with the constrictive belief system.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #3 - October 21, 2009, 01:48 PM

    Congrats kaiwai.

    You pretty quickly shed your delusions, huh? Cheesy

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
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    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #4 - October 22, 2009, 12:15 AM

    Congrats kaiwai.

    You pretty quickly shed your delusions, huh? Cheesy


    lol, well, I wanted to give it a test drive for 2 weeks. I am surprised anyone would want to convert to it in the first place. Give something a test drive for 2 weeks - I read numerous books and quite frankly, those who still defend islam but have some sort of mental disorder because it is the only way one could understand a person defending the indefensible.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #5 - October 22, 2009, 02:50 AM

    Hey Kawai, I'm glad you've come to see how false Islam is.
    I'm just curious though... what exactly do you mean when you say you gave Islam a 2-week test drive? What did that involve?

    "when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #6 - October 22, 2009, 02:54 AM

    Hey Kawai, I'm glad you've come to see how false Islam is.
    I'm just curious though... what exactly do you mean when you say you gave Islam a 2-week test drive? What did that involve?


    Praying 5 times a day, changing diet - the whole nine yards, learning the Qur'an and reading the exegesis's that exist out there. Just the dry run without the 'community atmosphere' was enough to put me off.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #7 - October 22, 2009, 02:58 AM

    I see. You said in your intro post you'd converted a month ago, so I was just trying to understand.
    So what attracted you to Islam in the first place? I know you said it provided the right mix of guidance and autonomy, but how so? what led you to believe this? Why not Buddhism or some liberal branch of Christianity?

    "when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #8 - October 22, 2009, 03:12 AM

    I see. You said in your intro post you'd converted a month ago, so I was just trying to understand.


    I apologise if I appear to have miss lead you.

    Quote
    So what attracted you to Islam in the first place?


    I guess 'romanticising the other' given a superficial understanding of Islam combined with a certain ascetic beauty of Islamic architecture and calligraphy Tongue

    Quote
    I know you said it provided the right mix of guidance and autonomy, but how so? what led you to believe this? Why not Buddhism or some liberal branch of Christianity?


    My understanding was based on a superficial reading of Islam through reading about Alevism. I am deist but I pull on some of the ideas from Buddhism and other religions - cherry pick in other words Smiley

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #9 - October 22, 2009, 03:19 AM

    hey no worries, I'm just glad you're being reasonable and honest with yourself through all this. It has probably saved you a lot of emotional turmoil at the very least. And I'm all for cherry-picking, as long as it's not done in the hypocritical sense of some religious people--- learning about others and adopting the aspects of their philosophies that we admire is one of the best ways to grow, imo  Smiley

    "when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #10 - October 22, 2009, 12:02 PM

    My understanding was based on a superficial reading of Islam through reading about Alevism. I am deist but I pull on some of the ideas from Buddhism and other religions - cherry pick in other words Smiley

    Which country are you from, and which religion were you born into i.e. what did your parents believe?

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  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #11 - October 22, 2009, 01:35 PM

    Which country are you from, and which religion were you born into i.e. what did your parents believe?


    Born in New Zealand, my Father is Catholic, Mother is Protestant - I was raised a Catholic.

    Became a deist when I was 15/16, nothing to do with being gay and more to do with not believing Jesus is the son of God (or any of the other required tenants of Christianity) or God intervening in daily life etc.

    I've floated around a number of religions and always came back to deism.  I've given Islam a try 3 times and each time it has further re-enforced the fact that it is a majorly screwed up religion.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #12 - October 22, 2009, 01:46 PM

    Hi,

    I saw the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQg6x-K82IA

    and would love to source the original video file if at all possible. I'm looking at making a video on my vimeo account on why Muslims shouldn't take a literalist approach to understanding the Qur'an, the role of Maurice Bucaille, Saudi Arabia and these so-called 'Qur'anic Science'.

    I'd like to make a running video which includes your video as part of it.


    You can easily download any of my videos by using free software like "keepvid" - but I see Aziz has linked you to someplace to get it  Afro
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #13 - October 22, 2009, 01:51 PM

    BTW unlike my other videos - this one was a combined effort with other members of CEMB forum as I say in my description of that video - and you might want to check out the thread that led to the vid as it has a lot more info:

    "A big thank you to all those at the Council of Ex-Muslims who both urged me to make this and contributed material. You can find a discussion and many of the references for this video here;"

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5708.0
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #14 - October 22, 2009, 01:55 PM

    BTW unlike my other videos - this one was a combined effort with other members of CEMB forum as I say in my description of that video - and you might want to check out the thread that led to the vid as it has a lot more info:

    "A big thank you to all those at the Council of Ex-Muslims who both urged me to make this and contributed material. You can find a discussion and many of the references for this video here;"

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5708.0


    Has anyone ever thrown up any objections to the claims? I mean seriously educated attempts and not ad-hominems.
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #15 - October 22, 2009, 03:52 PM

    Nope.

    The thing is that many Muslims are convinced they have all the answers - they are blinded by all the claims and propaganda - but when they actually have to come up with answers... they have nothing!

    Just bluster.

    I can't count how many times ppl have said to me things like:

    "You are so ignorant - all this has been answered and proven and I will show it to you!"

    Then nothing!

  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #16 - October 22, 2009, 03:56 PM

    Nope.

    The thing is that many Muslims are convinced they have all the answers - they are blinded by all the claims and propaganda - but when they actually have to come up with answers... they have nothing!

    Just bluster.

    I can't count how many times ppl have said to me things like:

    "You are so ignorant - all this has been answered and proven and I will show it to you!"

    Then nothing!




    You know, what they don't get is if you are jumping up and down about "scientific facts" in the quran and it ends up being falsified by the video you have put up and one or two article that I sent to you then the whole "miracle" has collapsed. What do they have to rely on? The "poetry" and "balagha"?
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #17 - October 22, 2009, 08:33 PM

    Nope.

    The thing is that many Muslims are convinced they have all the answers - they are blinded by all the claims and propaganda - but when they actually have to come up with answers... they have nothing!

    Just bluster.

    I can't count how many times ppl have said to me things like:

    "You are so ignorant - all this has been answered and proven and I will show it to you!"

    Then nothing!


    Personally I think the embryology in the qu'ran rather should be considered in a judeo-christian context spiced up with the knowledge midwives (or 'old women') would have been acquainted with by practical experience. The idea of three periods of darkness (chambers) was a normal concept in judeo-christian knowlegde of embryology.

    Fx from the Mishnah: "During the first three months the embryo occupies the lowest chamber, during the middle ones it occupies the middle chamber and during the last months it occupies the uppermost chamber" (Niddah 31a (Source: Babylonian Talmud)
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #18 - October 23, 2009, 06:46 AM

    Personally I think the embryology in the qu'ran rather should be considered in a judeo-christian context spiced up with the knowledge af midwives (or 'old woman') would have been acquainted with in practical experience. The idea of three periods of darkness (chambers) was a normal concept in judeo-christian knowlegde of embryology.

    Fx from the Mishnah: "During the first three months the embryo occupies the lowest chamber, during the middle ones it occupies the middle chamber and during the last months it occupies the uppermost chamber" (Niddah II 5)


    Sounds very similar to what Salman Rushdie said; many of the stories were lifted almost word for word by the desert Christians (can't remember the name they were called) where gospels were adjusted to desert life (Jesus being born in an oasis under a palm tree).

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #19 - October 23, 2009, 11:54 AM

    Sounds very similar to what Salman Rushdie said; many of the stories were lifted almost word for word by the desert Christians (can't remember the name they were called) where gospels were adjusted to desert life (Jesus being born in an oasis under a palm tree).


    Well the context is of course very difficult to recreate, but the exact example you mentioned is probably somehow an adaptation from the Pseudo-Matthew Gospel (also known as the Infancy-Gospel of Matthew). I guess most in here knows about it, but here it is anyhow Smiley

    Quote
    And it came to pass on the third day of their journey, while they were walking, that the blessed Mary was fatigued by the excessive heat of the sun in the desert; and seeing a palm tree, she said to Joseph: Let me rest a little under the shade of this tree. Joseph therefore made haste, and led her to the palm, and made her come down from her beast. And as the blessed Mary was sitting there, she looked up to the foliage of the palm, and saw it full of fruit, and said to Joseph: I wish it were possible to get some of the fruit of this palm. And Joseph said to her: I wonder that thou sayest this, when thou seest how high the palm tree is; and that thou thinkest of eating of its fruit. I am thinking more of the want of water, because the skins are now empty, and we have none wherewith to refresh ourselves and our cattle. Then the child Jesus, with a joyful countenance, reposing in the bosom of His mother, said to the palm: O tree, bend thy branches, and refresh my mother with thy fruit. And immediately at these words the palm bent its top down to the very feet of the blessed Mary; and they gathered from it fruit, with which they were all refreshed. And after they had gathered all its fruit, it remained bent down, waiting the order to rise from Him who bad commanded it to stoop. Then Jesus said to it: Raise thyself, O palm tree, and be strong, and be the companion of my trees, which are in the paradise of my Father; and open from thy roots a vein of water which has been hid in the earth, and let the waters flow, so that we may be satisfied from thee. And it rose up immediately, and at its root there began to come forth a spring of water exceedingly clear and cool and sparkling. And when they saw the spring of water, they rejoiced with great joy, and were satisfied, themselves and all their cattle and their beasts. Wherefore they gave thanks to God. (The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, Chapter 30)


    What I meant about the embryology is that it's actually to give the qur'an to much credit to argue that the ideas established in the qur'an is inherited from the Greco-Roman medical writers, and besides it's not likely that thats what happened. It's more likely that it's presenting the common cultural perspective on embryology among the arabs of the sixth-seventh century. To acknowledge the Greek influence is to paraphrase middle age muslim scholars who tried to establish an agreement between the qur'an and for instans Galen. The knowledge a midwife could get from practicing midwifery should not be underrated. In fact midwives might have been a partial source for what the Greek medical writers knew about several issues especially related to females.

    Another passage from the Niddah 31 shows the broad perspective of the imagination of Antique and Late Antique people. A similar notion can be found within Greek medical tradition:

    Quote
    Our Rabbis taught: There are three partners in man, the Holy One, blessed be He, his father and his mother. His father supplies the semen of the white substance out of which are formed the child's bones, sinews, nails, the brain in his head and the white in his eye; his mother supplies the semen of the red substance out of which is formed his skin, flesh, hair, blood14  and the black of his eye (Niddah 31b (Source: Babylonian Talmud))

  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #20 - October 23, 2009, 12:17 PM

    You know, what they don't get is if you are jumping up and down about "scientific facts" in the quran and it ends up being falsified by the video you have put up and one or two article that I sent to you then the whole "miracle" has collapsed. What do they have to rely on? The "poetry" and "balagha"?

    Now I know where the word 'blag' derives from

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  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #21 - November 21, 2009, 01:53 PM

    http://islamicarchives.wordpress.com/2009/04/26/does-quran-really-plagiarize-the-embryological-details-from-the-greeks/

     Roll Eyes

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #22 - November 21, 2009, 02:04 PM



    What did you think?
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #23 - November 21, 2009, 02:07 PM

    Boring that's for sure. -_-

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #24 - November 21, 2009, 03:12 PM

    Boring that's for sure. -_-


    Besides that I mean, the content etc. I found it full of sophistry and word play. They just don't get it do they? It doesn't have to be word for word. The very fact that similar ideas existed before they were put into the Quran is enough to exclude the Quran's claim to be a miracle.
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #25 - November 21, 2009, 04:08 PM

    Third Paragraph *wince*
    Quote
    The Qur?anic ideas on embryology were completely different in terms of style, content and accuracy.

    *completely* different? Style?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #26 - November 21, 2009, 04:19 PM

    Third Paragraph *wince**completely* different? Style?



    Come on Baal, lets have more commentary. You are one of our native arabic speakers. (I think!)
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #27 - November 22, 2009, 10:57 AM


    Sorry, Omaar, but I don't have the time nor the desire to go through that very long article. A brief look tells me it isn't worth the effort.

    What is interesting to note though is that many Muslims have now had to shift the debate about embryology in Qur'an from the more striking claim that the Qur'an describes embryology long before it was known about  - to: The Qur'an's description of embryology is much better than those of the Greeks and others.

    And to do this they are having to rely more and more on giving meanings to words that they simply don't have.

    What Muslims used to be impressed by was the claim that the Qur'an revealed something that was not known.

    Arguing very dubiously that; the Qur'an has slightly better descriptions than previous ones - is far less impressive.
  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #28 - November 22, 2009, 11:46 AM

    I'll echo this here again:-

    Quote
    I found it full of sophistry and word play. They just don't get it do they? It doesn't have to be word for word. The very fact that similar ideas existed before they were put into the Quran is enough to exclude the Quran's claim to be a miracle.

  • Re: Hassan and "Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?"
     Reply #29 - November 22, 2009, 12:17 PM

    lol... I should have read your comment, Omaar, as I didn't realise you had already said what I just said  Tongue
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