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 Topic: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise

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  • Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     OP - October 28, 2009, 01:56 PM
    http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/10/25/in_the_muslim_world_creationism_is_on_the_rise/?page=full
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #1 - October 28, 2009, 04:02 PM
    Quote
    ?For evolution in the Islamic world, it?s very unfortunate that Darwin was a white Brit, because otherwise it would have gained wider acceptance,? says Ehab Abouheif, an evolutionary biologist at McGill who has spoken publicly about reconciling his Muslim faith and evolution.


    Bruzzer, didn't you know?  He was akshully Arab.  His real name, is al Darwish, but ze kufar, yaani they change it to Darwin so that they can take ze credit for zis important science, because as you know, Islam is the science, and only science, and ze Quran, it is a book which can find many important scientific knowledges in it.  Mashallah. 
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #2 - October 28, 2009, 04:13 PM
    Quote from: Manat on October 28, 2009, 04:02 PM
    Bruzzer, didn't you know?  He was akshully Arab.  His real name, is al Darwish, but ze kufar, yaani they change it to Darwin so that they can take ze credit for zis important science, because as you know, Islam is the science, and only science, and ze Quran, it is a book which can find many important scientific knowledges in it.  Mashallah. 


    Takbir! Sister, you know we discovered science. Zose kuffar knew nothing about civilisation before Islam. We passed on ze knowledge to zem. I mean luk at zem, zey didn't even know which hand to wipe their backside with until we showed them. But they still won't learn, still wiping away and leaving ze skid marks on underwear!!!  Afro
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #3 - October 28, 2009, 07:21 PM
    Quote from: from the article above
    Akyol has since modified his views. He is now more dubious about intelligent design and the existence of the sort of the divine micromanager that the theory posits. ?I still find it plausible,? he says, but he finds it more plausible that Allah set the initial conditions for evolution, then sat back and allowed it to unfold according to plan - a position Akyol likens to that of the prominent English paleontologist Simon Conway Morris, an outspoken Christian.


    Actually some educated relatives of mine who find the evolution evidence so convincing turned to believe just that!!
    ...
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #4 - October 28, 2009, 08:10 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on October 28, 2009, 07:21 PM
    Actually some educated relatives of mine who find the evolution evidence so convincing turned to believe just that!!


    I suppose it's a nice way to try to reconcile your faith. But would they include humans in that equation and how on earth would you square the Adam and Eve story? Remember he was created with Allah's own hands.
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #5 - October 28, 2009, 08:33 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on October 28, 2009, 08:10 PM
    I suppose it's a nice way to try to reconcile your faith. But would they include humans in that equation and how on earth would you square the Adam and Eve story? Remember he was created with Allah's own hands.


    Exactly the same question I asked. Their answer was that all stories in the Quran including Adam and Eve's could well be metaphoric. For God himself in the Quran many many times have said that he gives stories and examples to make it easier for people (of that time) to understand. They mentioned some 5 verses that say Allah created us from a single soul...

    I thought, well it is better than creationists theory. If they're cool with Allah initiated the single cell to evolve into what we are today, then that is fine.
    ...
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #6 - October 28, 2009, 08:36 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on October 28, 2009, 08:33 PM
    Exactly the same question I asked. Their answer was that all stories in the Quran including Adam and Eve's could well be metaphoric. For God himself in the Quran many many times have said that he gives stories and examples to make it easier for people (of that time) to understand. They mentioned some 5 verses that say Allah created us from a single soul...

    I thought, well it is better than creationists theory. If they're cool with Allah initiated the single cell to evolve into what we are today, then that is fine.


    Although I think that version of God is slightly different to the one referred to in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition.
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #7 - October 28, 2009, 09:43 PM
    Quote from: Manat on October 28, 2009, 04:02 PM
    Bruzzer, didn't you know?  He was akshully Arab.  His real name, is al Darwish, but ze kufar, yaani they change it to Darwin so that they can take ze credit for zis important science, because as you know, Islam is the science, and only science, and ze Quran, it is a book which can find many important scientific knowledges in it.  Mashallah. 

    Well look at the pic in the article. Darwin has a big beard and looked grumpy. Obviously he must be an imam. yes

    Anyway this from al Jazeera is stoopid to the max:

    Quote
    ?Ardi Refutes Darwin?s Theory,? Al Jazeera announced, in an Oct. 3 article not available on the English version of the website. ?American scientists have presented evidence that Darwin?s theory of evolution was wrong,? the article opened. ?The team announced yesterday that Ardi?s discovery proves that humans did not evolve from ancestors that resemble chimpanzees, which refutes the longstanding assumption that humans evolved from monkeys.?

    There is just so much stoopid wrapped up into one little quote there.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #8 - October 28, 2009, 09:53 PM
    If you look at the picture posted on Al Jazeera's web site, (it was posted on RD. net, I can't be bothered to look it up), they compounded the stooopid by showing a pic of an orang utan with the caption underneath - "We did not descend from chimpanzees".

    That's a Harun Yahya level of incompetence.   wacko
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #9 - October 28, 2009, 09:59 PM
    So they think we descended from orangutans?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #10 - October 28, 2009, 10:04 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on October 28, 2009, 09:59 PM
    So they think we descended from orangutans?


    No.  Actually, I only needed to quote this bit of your post..

    Quote
    So they think


    The answer is still no.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #11 - October 28, 2009, 10:08 PM
    I suspected as much.  Wink
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #12 - October 29, 2009, 04:00 AM
    Hey....I remember posting about this Aljazera-caused creationism frenzy several weeks ago... So COEM should have had the exclusive not the Boston website! I experienced it first hand.. I need to find the post now... finmad
    ...
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #13 - October 29, 2009, 04:13 AM
    Here it is: (http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=6949.msg175250#msg175250).

    The Boston article was just 4 days ago October 25th. Mine was October 8th.  Afro
    ...
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #14 - October 29, 2009, 07:17 AM
    Quote from: RIBS on October 29, 2009, 04:13 AM
    Here it is: (http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=6949.msg175250#msg175250).

    The Boston article was just 4 days ago October 25th. Mine was October 8th.  Afro

    5 days late, sorry  Roll Eyes
    http://richarddawkins.net/article,4405,-Ardi-proves-Darwin-wrong,Al-Jazeerah---Arabic-version
    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #15 - October 29, 2009, 09:21 AM
    Damn  finmad they beat me to it!

    But I am still ahead of Boston... Yippiiiiiiiiii! Cheesy
    ...
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #16 - October 29, 2009, 12:52 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on October 28, 2009, 08:10 PM
    I suppose it's a nice way to try to reconcile your faith. But would they include humans in that equation and how on earth would you square the Adam and Eve story? Remember he was created with Allah's own hands.


    You could make like Nuh Keller et al and say "Well it was evolution for everything but human beings." 
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #17 - October 29, 2009, 12:53 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on October 28, 2009, 09:43 PM
    Well look at the pic in the article. Darwin has a big beard and looked grumpy. Obviously he must be an imam. yes

    Anyway this from al Jazeera is stoopid to the max:
    There is just so much stoopid wrapped up into one little quote there.



    I don't know where, but I heard that the show was quoting a guy who was on there, who was saying those things, not that, like, the anchor of Al Jazeera news was saying that. But now I don't remember where I saw that.
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #18 - October 29, 2009, 01:40 PM
    Just finished listening to the two videos; I would make one difference; there is a difference between having a belief in a eistein/deistic god and something of a god which muslims/jews/christians/misc believe in.
    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #19 - October 29, 2009, 01:48 PM
    Of course
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  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #20 - November 28, 2009, 07:10 PM
    Well, I should point out that some Islamic scholar, like Al Jahiz made therories similar to evolution:

    "Animals engage in a struggle for existence; for resources, to avoid being eaten and to breed. Environmental factors influence organisms to develop new characteristics to ensure survival, thus transforming into new species. Animals that survive to breed can pass on their successful characteristics to offspring."

  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #21 - November 28, 2009, 08:35 PM
    Quote from: kodoque on November 28, 2009, 07:10 PM
    Well, I should point out that some Islamic scholar, like Al Jahiz made therories similar to evolution:

    "Animals engage in a struggle for existence; for resources, to avoid being eaten and to breed. Environmental factors influence organisms to develop new characteristics to ensure survival, thus transforming into new species. Animals that survive to breed can pass on their successful characteristics to offspring."




    Interesting, but a reference would be nice. I know the guy and in this vain should be mentioned al-Masudi.

    Quote
    Several Islamic writers arrived at concepts that resemble evolution; Othman Amr al-Jahiz (died 869) and Abu-l-Hasan 'Ali al-Masudi (died 956) proposed an evolution "from mineral to plant, from plant to animal, and from animal to man". al-Masudi was exiled from Baghdad, possibly for advocating ideas like these. ("Medieval and Renaissance Concepts of Evolution and Paleontology" at berkeley-edu)


    Greek and Latin philosophers had similar ideas. Especially Lucretius (1.

    Quote
    5.771-1427. Continuing the early history of our world, Lucretius envisages how life first emerged from the earth, and (an especially admired and influential reconstruction) how humans developed from nomadic hunters to city-dwellers with language, law and the arts. In this prehistory the exclusion of divine intervention, while rarely foregrounded, is plainly the underlying motivation. The fertile young earth naturally sprouted with life forms, and the organisms thus generated were innumerable random formations. Of these, most perished, but a minority proved capable of surviving ? thanks to strength, cunning, or utility to man ? and of reproducing their kind. This account, which has won admiration for its partial anticipation of Darwin's principle of the survival of the fittest, is plainly using a kind of natural selection to account non-teleologically for the apparent presence of design in the animal kingdom. Lucretius (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)


    But what should be noted that none of the different thinkers previous Darwin quite make a comprehensive presentation and theory of the issue and just as important none had a similar impact on their contemporary cultural environment.
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #22 - November 28, 2009, 08:43 PM
    I wanted to post a wikipedia link, but I apparently still can't.
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #23 - November 28, 2009, 08:52 PM
    But follow Salmen Hameed blog Irtiqa which exactly deals, primarily, with evolution in the "muslim world" (especially Pakistan, Salmen himself being from Pakistan).

    He just posted some blog-post on a conference on evolution and Darwin in Alexandria (Egypt) which he himself attended. Anyways his blog is a fresh perspective on the relationship between religion (especially islam) and evolution. Personally as an atheist I would like that more religious persons would accept evolution and scientific inquiry than more religious people would deny both.
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #24 - November 28, 2009, 08:58 PM
    Quote from: kodoque on November 28, 2009, 08:43 PM
    I wanted to post a wikipedia link, but I apparently still can't.


    I just hate the lag of reference, being a historian. The lag of reference is the lag of substance. And in this respect wikipedia is not the best source. Gladly many universities have started to make small public entries on different topics, and the entries a fairly safe resources. On wikipedia different suspect sources is used (which might be truthful, but it's at time hard to distinguish); look for instans at the notes in the article on al-Jahiz. Several of the sites mentioned would not be sufficient as reference-pages in my book, though they might be conveying historical facts. I prefer the peer-reviewed stuff Smiley
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #25 - November 28, 2009, 09:32 PM
    Indeed, hence why I precised that it was wikipedia worth . :-D

    Edit: Good old smiley FTW.
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #26 - November 28, 2009, 09:45 PM
    Quote from: kodoque on November 28, 2009, 07:10 PM
    Well, I should point out that some Islamic scholar, like Al Jahiz made therories similar to evolution:

    "Animals engage in a struggle for existence; for resources, to avoid being eaten and to breed. Environmental factors influence organisms to develop new characteristics to ensure survival, thus transforming into new species. Animals that survive to breed can pass on their successful characteristics to offspring."

    This is wholly inaccurate & a misrepresentation of what actually happens
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  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #27 - November 28, 2009, 09:48 PM
    The way that is worded it could mean either Lamarckism or Darwinian evolution. It's a bit hard to tell without more detail.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #28 - November 28, 2009, 10:04 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 28, 2009, 09:45 PM
    This is wholly inaccurate & a misrepresentation of what actually happens


    It was a theory, bound to upgrade.
  • Re: Islam?s Darwin problem. In the Muslim world, creationism is on the rise
     Reply #29 - November 28, 2009, 10:04 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 28, 2009, 09:48 PM
    The way that is worded it could mean either Lamarckism or Darwinian evolution. It's a bit hard to tell without more detail.


    This is what I was thinking too.
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